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  1. - Top - End - #1321
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I would be.
    Of course, but not everyone is good enough friends with Blackshirts to know this kind of stuff. I, for example, didn't know (at most.only suspected) much about GW's hiring policies until those threads, and a company's hiring policies speaks volumes about the company itself.

  2. - Top - End - #1322
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Crusade Legion Special Rules

    Main Crusade Army List.

    What follows in this post is Legion-specific rules. Note that many special characters in each Legion are marked 'Traitor' or 'Loyalist', and have mechanics directly related to their Fluff (because Forge World knows what they're doing) and, as such, this author apologises for any spoilers for the Horus Heresy series of books. Many characters are also marked 'Praetor', this simply means that they have the Master of the Legion rule, and are limited to one per thousand points, and, may choose Rites of War.

    Sons of Horus
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    You get Reserve Manipulation for free, which is nice. When you outnumber your opponent in Assault, you get more Attacks, because Horus taught his Legion to be bullies, and, lastly, the negative, you can't benefit from Allied Leadership values or Warlord Traits. That's fine. The Sons of Horus don't care about Allies anyway. Because of this 'negative' drawback, you'll want Pride of the Legion on your Praetor almost every time.

    Dreadclaw Drop Pod: Transport. Donít be fooled by the name. Itís not a Drop Pod. Itís a Flier. Itís a Dedicated Transport for Justaerin, Veterans, Seekers, Reavers and Command Squads. Hooray! Unfortunately, it does cost points, and is considerably harder to actually get than a normal Drop Pod, because Forge World. However, the point is, you can have 'Drop Pods' without having the Orbital Assault RoB.

    Justaerin: Elites. Theyíre Terminators. With Stubborn and Furious Charge. They also have the Ďnearly always Scoringí rule too just so you donít pass them up for regular Cataphractii every single time.

    Ezekyle Abaddon: Traitor. Praetor. Must be your Warlord. He has #2 from the Command Traits. Itís not great. Heís Fearless and any Terminator squad he joins - including Justaerin - can Deep Strike for free.

    Garviel Loken: Loyalist. Praetor. He has #1 from the Command Traits. He has I6 with a Paragon Blade which is kind of great. He does not have Artificer Armour. When he gets killed, he comes back on a 2+ (but only once).

    Reaver Attack Squad (II): Fast. Theyíre an Assault Squad that Outflanks. They may also take Boltguns to be Grey Hunters. However, they get Banestrike Shells, which, on 6s To Wound, are AP3 Boltguns. All models in the unit can make Precision Shots to make that AP3 really count. Harsh.

    Maloghurst the Twisted (II): Traitor. Praetor. He has #6 from Personal Traits (if you didnít already know, thatís the best Warlord Trait in the game). He has a Power Sword, Pistol and a Boltgun with Banestrike Shells. He makes Reavers and Veterans Troops. His statline isnít great, and, any unit he joins canít Run or Sweep. Sweeping doesn't matter because you should be Rapid Firing your Boltgun. So, yeah. He changes your army slots, and can take a Rite of War, and still comes in less than 150 Points. If you're not a fan of Abaddon and Terminators, you can't go far wrong with Maloghurst.

    The Black Reaving (II)
    Models that come onto Reserve that aren't Deep Striking (i.e; Reavers) have Fleet for that turn. But it's also good for objective grabbing in the last turn. Sons of Horus gain Rage when they Charge an opponent already in combat, and this counts towards outnumbering your opponent for even MOAR ATTACKS. Reavers may be Troops (so you don't actually need Maloghurst at all), and Justaerin can Deep Strike for free.

    However, you must take a Master of Signal as a second HQ (because the first is your Praetor to get the Rite in the first place, obviously). That's painfully annoying. Furthermore, your FOC changes to the following; 3+ Troops, 1-3 Fast Attack, 0-2 Heavy Support. You must always have more Fast than Heavy. That part is pretty painful, since the best Fast choice you have - Reavers - are more likely to be taken as Troops.


    World Eaters
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    Once you Destroy or cause a unit to Fall Back in Assault, World Eaters gain Furious Charge. If World Eaters fail a Morale check (i.e; Lose a combat), they can RNG to gain Rage. Except that that's dumb. Book II gives World Eaters Rage all the time which fixes it. Sure, you need to buy a whole second book just to get the rule, but, at least the stupidity got fixed, right? Secondly, all Chainswords may be upgraded to Chainaxes. Chainaxes are AP5. Because that's so useful in the Heresy.

    Rampager Squads: Elites. Ignore Destroyer Squads. Take these instead. They have FNP and Scout. They can also have Jump Packs, too. If you donít give them Jump Packs, you can mount them in a Land Raider instead. Because Scouting ĎRaiders are really cool. All models in the unit are Characters. So, while you canít loadout with Plasma Pistols, you have a load of Precision Shots when you get into Assault.

    Shabran Daar: Loyalist. Master-Crafted Chainaxe. FNP. Rage. Hatred (Traitors) and he causes Fear (remember ATSNKF is not a thing). He can be given a Jump Pack for extra points. And, in a Challenge, all his attacks become Rending. Heís cheap, too. Probably because he doesn't count as a Praetor.

    The Red Butchers (II): Cataphractii Terminators with Power Axes. Fearless and Hatred (Everything) with a bit of FNP thrown in for good measure. They can re-roll their Charges. Unfortunately, they never Score. This is kind of painful since regular Cataphractii can Score.

    Kharn the Bloody (II): Traitor. Praetor. Must be your Warlord. Gives +1 to go first and Seize. He has an AP3 Rending weapon, which, for 20 Points over his base cost, you can upgrade to Gorechild, which is great. Unfortunately, he doesnít become a Perpetual until the Battle of Terra, so, thatís not a thing (yet). Kharn is brutal.

    Berzerker Assault (II)
    Gain Hatred (Everything) while outside your DZ, and you can re-roll your Pinning checks and certain Run moves. That's all the benefit you get for your Unique Rite. Kind of lame, right? But, just to show you how bad it really is, let's talk about the negatives anyway;
    FOC is 3+ Troops, now. No Fortifications. No Allies. Ouch.
    You can't have more Tank and Flier units than you do Infantry units.
    No Librarians.

    This Rite isn't even close to worth it. Any of the generic Rites are better, and they don't have downsides that cripple you.


    Emperor's Children
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    You get Crusader and you must always issue and accept Challenges, if your Character loses, you have -1 Ld for that turn.

    Palantine Blade Squad: Elites. Theyíve got Charnabal Sabres, which they can trade for Power Swords. Theyíve got two attacks each and you can give them Jump Packs and everyone is a Character. As far as Legion Honour Guard go, Palantines are pretty good.

    Rylanor the Unyielding: Elite. Loyalist. Heís a Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought with a Kheres Assault Cannon - just the one? Aw. - and he counts as a Banner. Heís expensive. Especially when Terminators can Score for the same points cost.

    Captain Saul Tarvitz: Loyalist. Praetor. You'll never be as cool as him. He has #1 on the Personal Traits. He has a Sniper Rifle and a Charnabal Broadsword. Yes, an honest-to-goodness Broadsword. Heís cheap, which is a plus. But, whatís weird is that he has Preferred Enemy (Emperorís Children).

    Phoenix Terminator Squad (II): Elites. They have AP2/3 Power Spears which make them solid. They have higher Initiative when they Charge, too. They also count as winning by one if you draw combat. Not bad. However, they lack the Scoring rule which makes Terminators and Justaerin so phenomenally good.

    Lord Commander Eidolon (II): Traitor. Praetor. Must be your Warlord. He has a sucky Trait that sucks. He has a Thunder Hammer and an Arch Pistol. On a turn in which he Charges, he is I6 and his ĎHammer is not Unwieldy. He can be upgraded to have a Jump Pack, which should have been default. The downside of Eidolon (and playing Traitor), is that you don't have access to Tarvitz, who is cooler than you'll ever be. But, if you are playing Traitor, you get access to...

    Kakophoni (II): Elites. Traitor. They have 36Ē range S6, Gets Hot! guns. If take wounds from these guns, you then take a Leadership check with a negative modifier of how many Wounds were caused. If you fail the check (more than likely), take a further D6, AP2, Instant Death, Ignores Cover wounds. The Kakophoni will tear units apart.

    The Maru Skara (II)
    Get a tiny bonus to your Run and Charge moves on the first turn only. Then, choose 1-3 Elite and/or Fast Attack units in your army. These units gain Outflank, and you can choose which turn they arrive on (not Turn 1). Though you do have to write it down to prove you aren't cheating, or something. There has to be a downside though, right? Of course!
    No units can be Immobile, Heavy or Slow and Purposeful. That...Doesn't matter.
    You must take a Legion Champion. Ew. But they're the worst. Anything but a Champion would be better.
    No Fortifications. No Allies. Ouch.
    If you fail to Slay the Warlord, your opponent gains a VP. Giving your opponents free VPs is never, ever good.

    Still the tactical options open from Outflanking, guaranteed units is nothing to be sneezed at.


    Death Guard
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    Immune to Fear (run at me, Primarch!), you can re-roll some Difficult Terrain checks, and you Sweep slower. Last, all your Template weapons can gain Shred and Gets Hot!. Shred actually does matter when all your opponents are 3+ Armour.

    Deathshroud Terminators: Terminators with Shredding/Hot Hand Flamers and Power Scythes. To make up for their relatively weak weapons, they can also take Melta Bombs. Importantly, they can Score!

    Section Leader Crysos Morturg: Loyalist. #3 in the Strategic Traits. Power Sword, Combi-Flamer, Infiltrate and Stubborn. Where it gets really good is that he has ML1 and knows Endurance from Biomancy. Unfortunately, not a Praetor, but he's expensive anyway because of Infiltrate and Psykery.

    Marshal Durak Rask: Traitor. Praetor. #5 from Command Traits. Really? Sweet. Heís also a Siegebreaker Consul, too. Which is the second-best one you can be! Not bad. Not bad at all. Somehow manages to be cheaper than Crysos, which doesn't make any sense.

    Grave Warden Terminator Squad (II): Heavy. Terminators with Power Fists, Grenade Launchers and a whole lot of Poison and Ignores Cover.

    Calas Typhon (II): Traitor. Praetor. Must be your Warlord and his Trait isn't that good. He has a Poison, Ignores Cover Orbital, but that's about it. Also, he has ML1 (Telepathy). He doesn't really hold a candle to other First Captains, but, he's not totally awful.

    The Reaping (II)
    Veterans and Heavy Support Squads may be taken as non-compulsory Troops. What is the point, then? All Death Guard gain Move Through Cover, and you gain Rad Grenades as a wargear choice. What's the downside?
    Models can't Run or go Flat Out.
    No Deep Striking.
    0-1 Fast Attack choice.

    Ignore this Rite of War. Take a generic one. The restrictions are painful, especially since you can't use the FOC swaps for Veterans/Heavies until you've already spent points on squads you may or may not even want. Remember though, Rites are completely optional.


    Iron Hands (Book II)
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    You need to take a Ld test to Run, or to Sweep. That's really dumb. But, your huge bonus is that all Shooting Attacks are made at -1 Strength. You no longer get ID'd by S8, because it's S7. Boltguns are wounding you on 5s and then you get your saves anyway. It's an enormous bonus that makes all other Legions look terrible. However, with that said, how good are their unique units?

    Gorgon Terminator Squad: Elites. Terminators with Power Axes and FNP. If they make an Armour or Invulnerable save, one unit within 6" takes a Blind check. Do they Score? No? Okay. Regular Terminators it is.

    Medusan Immortals: Elites. Regular Marines with FNP and a terrible rule that, on a Leadership check, they can fire Snap Shots instead of Sweeping. You have to take a Leadership check anyway to Sweep. And, if you Sweep, you wipe out an entire unit with no rolls, no save. How is firing Snap Shots which will miss better than that? It isn't. Not even close. Ignore. Take a regular Tactical Squad that does exactly the same thing for less points. Or pick up Veterans that can take USRs.

    Spearhead-Centurion Castrmen Orth: Power Maul, Refractor Field and Tank Hunters. In addition, all Tanks in your army gain +1 Strength on their Ram rolls if he's your Warlord. Furthermore, he must be deployed inside a Tank that has Front Armour 13+, like Chronus, but with restrictions.

    Iron Father Autek Mor: Praetor. Must be your Warlord. He and another unit have Preferred Enemy. Therefore, do not deploy him in the same unit as you just gave your Preferred Enemy to. He's Fearless. He's got a Paragon Blade and Volkite Charger. So, he's not bad.

    Head of the Gorgon
    Gain Stubborn in your own DZ. Whatever. However, all models that can take Flamers, may take Graviton Guns instead, which is crazy. You can take an AdMech unit which is way better than your own and all vehicles with the Tank type, gain Outflank, which is awesome.
    0-1 Fast Attack choice. Probably to make up for everything having Outflank.
    The only Consul you can take is a Forge Lord, which is one of the worst Consuls. At least you're not forced into taking it like Emperor's Children.

    So, what's happening with Iron Hands; Their Legion rules are good. Their Legion units are not.


    Night Lords (Book II)
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    When you outnumber your opponent in Assault, Night Lords gain +1 To Wound. That's kind of a big deal. You can turn a failed Pinning check into a failed Morale check, which is also huge because then you just regroup and continue as normal, and not being Pinned is optional, so if you're close to the board edge you can choose to be Pinned as normal. Everyone in the army has Night Vision which is amazing. But - and there's always a 'but' - if your army's Warlord is slain, every unit in your army takes a Morale check because Night Lords bail as soon as the guy in charge isn't around anymore.
    Night Lords' Terminators may Deep Strike for a minimal points investment.

    Terror Squad: Elites. Assault Squad-on-foot with extra attacks, Preferred Enemy (Infantry), Infiltrate and Fear. Remember, you're in 30K. Fear is kind of a big deal. These guys will take apart most units that aren't Terminators. At least, as far as you can take apart units with close combat weapons.

    Night Raptor Squad: Fast. Assault Squad that gains +D3 attacks when they Charge instead of the usual +1. That's it. You could have Bikes or a Storm Eagle in this slot. Or take a regular Assault Squad that Scores.

    Flaymaster Mawdrym Llansahai: An Apothecary who causes Fear and is Fearless. He can re-roll both FNP and LoS rolls. Unfortunately, he can never be your Warlord and so can't be taken on his own. He's also got a S3, AP3 close combat weapon that decapitates. He's not bad. But, you can't take him individually and that hurts.

    'Sevatar': Praetor. #3 on the Strategic Traits (bring those Terror Squads). When Terminators Deep Strike, Sevatar counts as a Teleport Homer. He has a Master-Crafted Chainglaive (S5, AP3, Rending) weapon, and he causes Instant Death when in a Challenge. He's also ML1 (Divination), and causes Fear, too. Just because he's actually that good.

    Terror Assault
    Night Fighting can last up to three turns. Oh wow.
    Several squads in your army may take Drop Pods as Transports. Yay!
    Your army must include 3+ Terror Squads. Terror Squads are Troops. Oh no. You have to take Infiltrating Scoring units that cause Fear. However will you cope with that restriction?
    No Fortifications. No Allies. Seems fairly standard.

    Night Lords are awesome. Full stop.


    Salamanders (Book II)
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    Immune to Fear and can re-roll failed Morale checks. Flamers and Heavy Flamers gain +1 Strength. Said weapons used against Salamanders are at -1 Strength. Which doesn't matter, because 30K armies don't field Flamers. Also, Salamanders suck at Sweeping.

    Pyroclast Squad: Heavy Support. Marines with 2+ Armour and a 5++ against the weapons Salamanders are good at. They all have weapons that can be fired as Heavy Flamers or Inferno Pistols.

    Firedrake Terminator Squad: Elites. I don't understand why these guys are so expensive. Oh, they have two Wounds each. That explains it. 2 Wound models that Score. Nice.

    Cassian Dracos: HQ. He's an AV14 Dreadnought. He has a pair of weapons that work exactly like Bray'ath Ashmantle, he's Venerable with IWND. And, he's immune to Melta, Lance, Armourbane and Sunder, and he has an anti-horde attack which doesn't do a lot because it's 30K. He may only be your Warlord so long as there are no other HQ models in your army.

    Lord Chaplain Nomus Rhy'tan: Chaplain. #1 in Command Traits. His Power Maul is AP2, Armourbane. He also allows a Dreadnought Talon as an HQ choice. However, Dreadnoughts don't have Leadership values and therefore can't be Warlords. So, it's not as good as it sounds, especially if you're using both HQ slots and taking 0 Librarians.

    The Covenant of Fire
    All Vehicles gain a 5++ against Melta, Plasma, Volkite and Melta Bombs. Yes.
    All Melta weapons are Master-Crafted for free.
    Pyroclast Squads may be chosen as non-compulsory Troops. Sure.
    Gain Move Through Cover. Decent.

    No Deep Strikes allowed. Whatever.
    You can't take more Fast and Heavy units than you have Troops. (i.e; 3 Troops means you can have 1 Fast, 2 Heavy. 2 Fast, 1 Heavy. 0 Fast, 3 Heavy. etc). That kind of removes the min-maxing element of list building. Which may or may not hurt. But, Rites are optional.
    No Fortifications.


    Word Bearers (Book II)
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    Roll 3d6 and pick the lowest for Morale checks. Re-roll some Sweep rolls.
    If you're allowed a second HQ, you must take a second HQ. It must be a Centurion or Chaplain. How does this work if your first HQ is already a Centurion/Chaplain? Do you still have to take the second HQ?
    Praetors, Diabolists, Centurions and Chaplains may be upgraded to ML1 (Biomancy/Telepathy). It's not great. But, you can always have Psychic Shriek at least.

    Diabolist: A special Consul type for the Word Bearers. Gain the Daemon rule, and Preferred Enemy (Loyalists). Neat.

    Gal Vorbak Dark Brethren: Elites. Daemon, Stubborn, Rage, Rending and Deep Strike. WS/S/T/I 5 which is huge. Except that you also have 2 Wounds each. Amazing. Remember that Daemons cause Fear.

    Ashen Circle: Fast. Assault Squad with Hand Flamers and S5 in Assault. No bad. Just unnecessary.

    High Chaplain Erebus: Praetor. Chaplain. #2 from Command Traits. Adamantium Will. Has the ML1 (Biomancy/Telepathy), and you can take Chaos Daemons as Battle Brothers. So, if you aren't a fan of the Dark Brethren (how is Preferred Enemy not something you want), you can always pick one of the generic Rites, and you still get Chaos Daemons. Can Erebus be used as the second HQ Chaplain?

    Kor Phaeron: Praetor. Must be your Warlord. All Word Bearers gain +1 Leadership. Lame. He has T3 and 4 Wonds. Toughness. 3. Just awful. He has ML1 (Biomancy/Telepathy) and you can take Daemons as Allies. Kor Phaeron is pretty bad. However, if you've bought him, Erebus comes in the same set, and is far better.

    The Dark Brethren
    All Word Bearers have Preferred Enemy (Loyalists)
    Choose one unit, roll a dice. Roll badly, all opposing units have Preferred Enemy against that unit. Roll well, and that unit has PF against all opposing units.
    Codex: Chaos Daemons as Battle Brothers... YEEESSS!
    All opposing Perils wounds now cause Instant Death... YEEESSS!

    Must take a Diabolist. Okay. Seems fair. And you need a Chaplain, and you need a Praetor to pick up the Rite. You're using all 3 HQ slots available to you.
    0-1 Heavy Support choice. Aw.
    No Fortifications. No Allies. That doesn't matter because you can choose Daemons as Allies.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2014-04-04 at 03:41 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #1323
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Crusade Legion Special Rules

    'Sevatar': Praetor. #3 on the Strategic Traits (bring those Terror Squads). When Terminators Deep Strike, Sevatar counts as a Teleport Homer. He has a Master-Crafted Chainglaive (S5, AP3, Rending) weapon, and he causes Instant Death when in a Challenge. He's also ML1 (Divination), just because he's actually that good.
    One thing that makes me go : why does Sevatar not have Artificer armor? Because of game balance?

    It's just a bit odd that the FIRST CAPTAIN of a Legion doesn't have a 2+ armor save...

    It's also worth mentioning that Sevatar counts as Ld7 when doing psykery.

    Edit: Quick question about Power Scythes...

    How often will Sweep Attack actually come into play? I.e. will Power Scythes typically get off more attacks than Power Axes?
    Last edited by 13_CBS; 2014-04-03 at 09:15 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #1324
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    So I have been looking at this cool fandex over on the 1d4chan wiki... yeah stigma and all that, but it seems fairly balanced in the games I have played with it.

    It is a thousand sons codex with enough magic to do the fluff justice.

    Now I am curious, does anyone else know about other interesting balanced fandexs?

  5. - Top - End - #1325
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    How does this work if your first HQ is already a Centurion/Chaplain? Do you still have to take the second HQ?
    Um, surely the Centurion/Chaplain is the second HQ, then? It seems to be the rule is as follows:

    • You must take two HQs.
    • One of your HQs must be a Centurion/Chaplain.
    Last edited by bluntpencil; 2014-04-04 at 02:59 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #1326
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by 13_CBS View Post
    One thing that makes me go : why does Sevatar not have Artificer armor? Because of game balance?
    He has a 2++ vs. Shooting for being an Independent Character.
    He is I6 in Assault, has Rending attacks and causes Instant Death in Challenges.

    If your opponent can somehow hit Sevatar, he should be allowed to.

    It's also worth mentioning that Sevatar counts as Ld7 when doing psykery.
    I figure anyone who has the rules will find that readily apparent. The point is that he has Divination.

    What is worth mentioning is "Cheese, why does Sevatar have a Teleport Homer if Terminators can't Deep Strike?"
    Oh. Oops. Night Lords' Terminators can Deep Strike.

    With that in mind,
    Sevatar is your Warlord. Grab the Night Lords' Rite to make Terror Squads, Troops.
    Infiltrate Sevatar up the board.
    Terminators drop on Sevatar.
    It's 30K, so Terminators are Scoring.

    How often will Sweep Attack actually come into play? I.e. will Power Scythes typically get off more attacks than Power Axes?
    First, Power Scythes replace Power Fists, meaning you're trading S8, for S5, Sweep. That makes it even worse.
    However, it's an experiment you can do in your own home.

    Grab a base, any base. How many other bases can you put in contact with it? Thanks to pi being a thing that exists (and from regular use of Deep Strike), we know that the maximum amount of bases of the same size base you can fit into contact is six. However, completely surrounding a single model in Assault should never happen unless your canonballing Mortarion (why would you not?). So, you're probably likely to top out at 3 Hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    Um, surely the Centurion/Chaplain is the second HQ, then? It seems to be...
    You think that only because I don't write words verbatim.

    As written;
    "Any Primary Detachment chosen from the Word Bearers Legion must include a second Compulsory HQ choice on the Force Organisation Chart (where a second choice is allowed). This choice must always be either a Centurion or Chaplain Consul."

    So, you must always take two HQs.
    The second HQ must be a Centurion/Chaplain, regardless of what the first HQ is.

    As far as the Word Bearers' Rite goes, while writing, I forgot that the 30K FOC is 3 HQs and 4 Elites.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2014-04-04 at 03:40 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #1327
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    He has a 2++ vs. Shooting for being an Independent Character.
    He is I6 in Assault, has Rending attacks and causes Instant Death in Challenges.

    If your opponent can somehow hit Sevatar, he should be allowed to.
    I figured, it's just odd that the first captain of a Legion runs around wearing generic power armor.

    "Yeah, we blew our Legion budget on skulls and flayed corpses--again--so we could commission that Artificer suit for you. Sorry Jago."

    I figure anyone who has the rules will find that readily apparent. The point is that he has Divination.
    True, but given that he effectively has Ld 7, wouldn't he be running the risk of Periling himself fairly often? Or is Periling your Warlord to death worth getting off Divination powers?

  8. - Top - End - #1328
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by 13_CBS View Post
    "Yeah, we blew our Legion budget on skulls and flayed corpses--again--so we could commission that Artificer suit for you. Sorry Jago."
    Funny you should say that. Angron only wears Power Armour, and, because of it, he's one of the worst Primarchs.

    True, but given that he effectively has Ld 7, wouldn't he be running the risk of Periling himself fairly often?
    Perils only happens on double-6s and 1s. He has the same chance as anyone else to Perils himself (except Lorgar, who Perils himself often). Ld7 just means his powers fail more often.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Perils only happens on double-6s and 1s. He has the same chance as anyone else to Perils himself (except Lorgar, who Perils himself often). Ld7 just means his powers fail more often.
    Oh. Well I feel silly. For some reason I thought Perils happened whenever you roll over your Leadership when using powers.
    Last edited by 13_CBS; 2014-04-04 at 06:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Guide to the Crusade Legion Primarchs

    Crsuade Legion Army List
    Crusade Legion Special Rules

    Primarchs are Lords of War, that means they can only be fielded in games of 2000 Points or more, or Apocalypse (which is probably 2000+ Points anyway). That being said, I find it hard to judge them fairly since in 2000+ Point games you can probably find a way to remove a Primarch from the board if you try, and thatís not really the point of having a Primarch In all honesty, you're probably better off with a Super-Heavy of some kind.
    Still. It's THE HERESY. Why are you even playing if you aren't interested in the Primarchs? For Mechanicum? Quiet you.
    Universally, Primarchs have;
    Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, IWND and are also Masters of the Legion so you can always pick up your Rite of choice. Secondly, a Primarch must always be your Warlord - superseding 'First Captains' - but, does not remove your 1+ required HQ. Since they count as a Praetor, remember that you can only have one per thousand Points, which means you pick up a second Praetor if you want, but it's hardly necessary. I'd be picking up one of those cheap ML3 Divination guys since my Warlord slot is already spoken for.

    Couple of important things; Primarchs cause Fear and are Fearless in return. If you've read the other Guides, you should know that that's kind of good.
    Primarchs do not have the Legiones Astartes special rule, and thus do not benefit from Legion rules. Weird. But, RAW is law.

    Horus the Warmaster
    He can split his attacks between a S10 Thunder Hammer and S7 Lightning Claw. I donít see the point in ever using the S10 Unwieldy weapon since the Lightning Claw is high enough Strength at AP2 that +3S isnít really going to make a difference unless youíre against other Primarchs or need to Instant Death something. Since Horus is a bully, if he fights any unit/model with WS4 or less, he gains extra attacks. He and any Terminator Squad he joins can pick which turn they arrive from Deep Strike on, and they wont Scatter.

    When Horus is around, all Sons of Horus gain Outflank, +1Ld and can Seize on a 4+. Furthermore, Veterans and Justaerin count as Troops. So, yeah. Coming in at half a thousand points exactly, Horus is at least 50 Points over-costed. Presumably his points cost is because he basically gives you a 'free' Rite of War (Pride of the Legion), with none of the drawbacks, and then you can pick up another Rite anyway.

    The Primarch Angron
    Coming in at 100 points less than Horus, Angron has six attacks at I7, and can declare as many Challenges as he has attacks, thatís kind of cool, since heíll wipe out entire Command Squads and Veterans all by himself - which is what heís designed to do. He has Furious Charge and FNP, Hatred and also throws out a Fearless aura which is awesome. Unfortunately, he is the only Primarch with a 3+ save like a loser, which is made even worse by the fact that he has the least amount of Wounds (5), too! So, expect him to get shot at. He also gains extra attacks every time he kills an IC or kills a unit by himself. He carries a pair of non-Unwieldy Armourbane Axes. Also, in Book II, Kharn can be upgraded to carry Gorechild. This doesn't appear to have any effects on Angron. Basically, Angron is really good at killing things, which all Primarchs can do.

    Fulgrim the Illuminator
    For even less points than Angron, Fulgrim has lower WS than Angron (wrong!) but higher Initiative 8. Fulgrim must issue and accept Challenges against models with WS5 or better (although if you issue the Challenge, your opponent doesnít have to accept with the WS5+ model, which is lame). Emperorís Children also automatically get +2 to their combat res while Fulgrim is on the board. Fulgrim has a 3++ in Assault, and gains extra attacks for each point his Initiative is higher than his opponentís. Fulgrim can pick his Warlord Traits from the Strategic Traits. Thatís awesome. Also, Fulgrim re-rolls Reserves.
    Fulgrim carries the Laer Blade which is AP2, Rending.

    Mortarion the Reaper
    Mortarion is arguably the toughest Primarch in the game with a whopping T7 with 7 Wounds and re-rolls failed IWND. If Mortarion is around, all Death Guard are Stubborn, and Frag weapons actually become useful. Since Mortarion is a cheater, ghost, in the Shooting phase, he can move a fixed 10Ē, ignoring terrain and anything else. Which after he can Charge normally (remember that Primarchs are Fleet). Mortarion also ignores Difficult Terrain and Poison doesnít work against him. He has a Power Scythe which is standard, except has Instant Death and Sunder tacked on. He also carries his Lantern that is 18Ē, S8, AP2, but you donít care about that because Mortarion carries unlimited Phosphex Bombs. Because thatís fair. Because Mortarion ignores Dangerous Terrain, he can drop a Phosphex Bomb practically at his feet and then run straight into the Blast. Because...You know...Cheater.

    If you want to kill Mortarion, you need to FIRE EVERYTHING! at him. Heís T7 with 7 Wounds, 2+/4++ and re-rolls IWND. Good luck. Beware his 'rocket-jump' S7 Sweep Attacks.

    Ferrus Manus
    For more points than Mortarion, he has less attacks than all of his brothers at Initiative bad. But he has T7, 6 Wounds and 2+/3++. Heís Relentless and has Smash. Further, all Iron Hands have FNP (6+). All Iron Hands vehicles with at least one AV of 13+, gain IWND (so, not Rhinos). Ferrus has a 3++ with a bunch of the usual Servo-Harness guns. However, where he really shines is his AP1 Thunder Hammer that is not Unwieldy. However, since his Initiative isnít that good, expect Fulgrim to kill him anyway.

    If you want, Ferrus can enter the battle without Forgebreaker. He replaces this amazing weapon with...Nothing.

    Konrad Curze
    For less points than Ferrus, Konrad is a Jump Infantry (with Fleet) Primarch with Hit & Run. His statline is average, similar to Horusí. But, he has Night Vision, and can declare that the first turn of any game is automatically Night Fight, which is harsh (which coupled with the Night Lords' Rite is awesome). But, weíre not done. Every Night Lord now causes Fear. Remember that Legiones do not have ATSKNF, and thatís terrifying (pun unintended). Fear tests are also taken against Konrad at -3, and any unit that is wiped out by Konrad turns the game into WHFB, and all units within 12Ē of that unit also need to take a Morale check. Your gunline is broken. Go home.

    Curze has a pair of AP2 Lightning Claws, as well as Poison Throwing Stars that on Ď6í To Wound, ignore Armour and Invulnerable saves. Konrad ignores your force fields. Somehow. Must be a Batman thing.

    Vulkan
    Costs the same as Mortarion, and has Initiative and attacks similar to Ferrus, as well as the same Toughness and Wounds. All Salamanders on the board have +1Ld and Adamantium Will (like that matters). Vulkan can re-roll IWND and has a 3++, making him putting him almost on par with Mortarion. He also wields his giant Hammer. Itís S10, AP1, Armourbane, Instant Death, and itís not even Unwieldy (take that Ferrus, Vulkan's hammer is better). Instead of attacking normally, Vulkan can put a small Blast marker in base contact with himself. Models hit take a S8, AP3, Strikedown hit. This is a lot better than Mortarion's Sweep Attacks. He also carries a S6, AP2 Beam weapon.

    Forge World apparently didnít get the memo about the plotline for Vulkan Lives in time for printing Book II, as such, no...That isn't in his rules.

    Lorgar
    The grand pimp himself. All Word Bearers on the board are Leadership 10, all Word Bearers who can draw line of sight to Lorgar are immune to Fear and count as having a Banner. Lorgar is special. The Gods said so. Once per game, Lorgar can make an opposing unit re-roll all 5s and 6s To Hit and Wound Lorgar. Lorgar has a 2+/4++ and a 3++ against Psychic Powers that do damage (thatís WitchfireÖ). Lorgar also carries an AP2 Power Maul with Smash. However, Lorgar's statline isn't the best by a long a shot, but, that should be made up for by the fact that he's also one of the only Primarch-Psykers. However, that Power Maul is still hitting at S8 which means it will kill Marines dead.

    ďYou need to calm down little bro, I donít think you know what youíre doing.Ē - Magnus (paraphrased)
    One way to guarantee Lorgar will do something is tell him that heís wrong. Lorgar is an ML2 Psyker who rolls on the Telekinesis or Telepathy tables. In addition, when using Powers, he rolls 3D6 and picks the two highest. Heís going to Perils more than once.

    ...And then, just to spite you, heís going to excel at what you told him not to do. Lorgar Transfigured is an ML3 Psyker who picks his Powers from TK or TP - yes, I will have Gate of Infinity and Puppet Master every game, guarenteed. In addition, when using Powers, he rolls 3D6 and picks the two lowest, important to note, is that with this method, he will Perils just as much as before - except even moreso because he'll be casting more with ML3 - but, he pretty much always get his Powers off. Hopefully one of your Word Bearer underlings will have rolled something good on Biomancy.

    The sucky thing about Lorgar though, is that you can get ML3 Librarians for less than a third of his cost. But, Librarians don't come with Lorgar's statline or S8, AP2 Melee attacks.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Forgive my ignorance on this one, but are Legion Armies able to be used with the rest of 40k? Obviously it looks like the rules are the same, but are they intended to be used against current codices or balanced outside of them?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Forgive my ignorance on this one, but are Legion Armies able to be used with the rest of 40k? Obviously it looks like the rules are the same, but are they intended to be used against current codices or balanced outside of them?
    IIRC the books themselves say they're intended to be played only against each other: so only 30k vs 30k according to FW. One place where this is evident is with World Eater legion rules--WEs that come with chainswords can swap them for chainaxes for free, which in an all MEQ environment is superficial but against, say, Xeno armies that could theoretically matter.

    That said, there have been several tournaments that allow 30k armies to be used, or so I hear.
    Last edited by 13_CBS; 2014-04-04 at 11:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Against anything capable of surviving Sevatar in an assault is likely to have Ap2 in the first place. Same process thought for Angron, really. Obviously, just less resilient, but hey. He should really be murdering units.

    One thing you need to remember (as a Night Lords player, as well as Sons of Horus), bulky units count as double. Raptor squads are expensive as hell, but damn they're tough as hell.

    If you're creating a killer unit; always, always, always, throw in a Centurion with a Boarding Shield; they grant defensive grenades to the squad. Curze is just absolute hell to put in a unit as well.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Forgive my ignorance on this one, but are Legion Armies able to be used with the rest of 40k?
    Forge World back-pedalled on this one, saying that they were able to, despite originally saying no, 30K is for cool kids only. Presumably to sell more models. With one exception. The Primarchs are not designed with regular 40K in mind. The Primarchs are designed in such a way that your opponent really needs one of their own - or a Super-Heavy. However, with Escalation in the game, that may or may not change.

    A Legion army in 40K will wreck face. I don't know why any sane TO would allow it, but, they can.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    A Legion army in 40K will wreck face. I don't know why any sane TO would allow it, but, they can.
    Interesting...

    How would a 30k army fare against, say, a D/Eldar Jetcouncil? Riptide spam? The less broken armies?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by 13_CBS View Post
    How would a 30k army fare against, say, a D/Eldar Jetcouncil? Riptide spam? The less broken armies?
    Eh? Do you know why Jet Councils are powerful? Fortune. Legion armies can deny their Armour and Cover Save no problem. Meaning that Jet Councils rely on a 4++ re-rollable. That's only 75% saved.
    Then remember that the reason that Legions aren't taking Flamers is because other Marines have a 3+ Save. What happens when you take those same Flamers, give them re-rollable Poison and/or Shred and then turn them on models that don't have a 3+ Save? Throw around Phosphex Bombs/Shells to put Dangerous Terrain all over the board. Jetbikes want to abuse their boosts? Well, now they can't. Everything behind that there wall is now Dangerous Terrain, if you stay there, you will die.
    Volkite Weapons destroy not-Marines. You know how awesome Grav-Guns are? Well, Graviton Weapons are the same, but with Blast.

    Riptide spam - and the O'vesa Star - rely on the fact that you have lots of Wounds with a good save. Legion armies have entire units of Plasma.

    Legions are broken. What's the point in putting them against a non-broken army?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    So, plastic Hydra kit. I can't help but notice that Ogryn and storm troopers don't appear under Astra Militarum on the site; were they removed from the AM/Guard codex?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    So, plastic Hydra kit. I can't help but notice that Ogryn and storm troopers don't appear under Astra Militarum on the site; were they removed from the AM/Guard codex?
    No. Storm Troopers and Ogryns are getting new models. Remember GW hates metal.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    No. Storm Troopers and Ogryns are getting new models. Remember GW hates metal.
    Yeah, but storm troopers already did with the Militarum Tempestus, but those aren't listed under AM. (Man, sharing the same acronym with the Mechanicus is going to be confusing as hell.)

    In other news, does anyone know what's in Altar of War? From the product description it reads kind of like Battle Missions, but not as inclusive. Is it just a reprint of stuff they've been doing in the mini-dexes I haven't paid attention to?
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2014-04-04 at 09:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    In other news, does anyone know what's in Altar of War?
    Yeah, it's all of the missions reprinted out of the supplement Codecies. Which means if you keep up with the Codecies, you don't need Altar of War.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    So what is the going rate for FNP and IWND these days? I know endurance gives them as one spell along with other buffs, tau has FNP for 15 or 35 points, some CSM viechels have them...

    I get that it should be variable(see difference between riptides FNP and everyone else)... so more specifically, what should it cost on a Chaos spawn? They seem like they should have both... and I wonder what the price hike should be to give it to them? something like 15 points per modal for FNP and 10 for ITWND?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDavenport View Post
    So what is the going rate for FNP and IWND these days? I know endurance gives them as one spell along with other buffs, tau has FNP for 15 or 35 points, some CSM viechels have them...

    I get that it should be variable(see difference between riptides FNP and everyone else)... so more specifically, what should it cost on a Chaos spawn? They seem like they should have both... and I wonder what the price hike should be to give it to them? something like 15 points per modal for FNP and 10 for ITWND?
    For further comparison, consider that a C:SM libby costing 65 can grant both of them and relentless to an entire squad, even picking a different squad each turn, with a pretty high chance of success. He's also not bad in combat.

    Obviously, this is only if he rolls the right power, but giving him a second power is, what, 20 points? That means that you're looking at +20 points to give a whole squad FNP/RL/IWND.

    It makes a massive difference depending on who needs it, who gets it, who hands it out and why.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDavenport View Post
    so more specifically, what should it cost on a Chaos spawn? They seem like they should have both...
    No they don't. If you want FNP on your Spawn, you should be running ML3 Biomancy Sorcerers like everyone else who runs Spawn.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Another thing making Vulkan awsome. melta, plasma and volkite type weapons are 1/2 str vs him!

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    When Astra Militarum comes out I'm willing to write a review of it since Guard is my army. Could somebody give an overview of what's in Militarum Tempestus, though? I mean, besides storm troopers as Troops and Commissars as HQ; there's got to be more than that I'd think since it's billed as a full Codex with its own army category rather than a supplement.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2014-04-05 at 11:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    When Astra Militarum comes out I'm willing to write a review of it since Guard is my army. Could somebody give an overview of what's in Militarum Tempestus, though? I mean, besides storm troopers as Troops and Commissars as HQ; there's got to be more than that I'd think since it's billed as a full Codex with its own army category rather than a supplement.
    I'm a little underwhelmed at what I've seen so far (broken record when it comes to GW sometimes). So here's scans of the index pages:

    Spoiler
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    Which means the "army" only has 1 Troops choice with transport, 2 (sorta 3) HQ choices, and 1 FA. The allies matrix is pretty much the same as IG but with Allies of Convenience limited to just Eldar, and Dark Eldar and Tau being your Desperate. They have their own orders (which are pretty sick) and warlord traits.

    It seems... a bit small to me. I guess being a "spin-off" army it's kind of to be expected (ending up looking more like =][= than a real Codex), so I can't be surprised. I suppose the lore might be worth, but it's hard to tell until real scans come in or until I find someone with one (since they don't seem to stock them in-store).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    there's got to be more than that I'd think since it's billed as a full Codex with its own army category rather than a supplement.
    Imperial Knights have two units.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDavenport View Post
    So what is the going rate for FNP and IWND these days? I know endurance gives them as one spell along with other buffs, tau has FNP for 15 or 35 points, some CSM viechels have them...

    I get that it should be variable(see difference between riptides FNP and everyone else)... so more specifically, what should it cost on a Chaos spawn? They seem like they should have both... and I wonder what the price hike should be to give it to them? something like 15 points per modal for FNP and 10 for ITWND?
    Here's the way I would look at it:

    If you take two of a model, you get twice the durability and twice the damage output for twice the point cost, in other words, a 100% point cost increase.

    Now, it's debatable how much of this is for the durability increase and how much for the damage increase, but which one of the two is more valuable is situational. Let's tentatively postulate that both are are equally valuable (more on that, see down below); in other words, doubling the durability without doubling the damage output would be worth a 50% point cost increase.

    A 5+ FNP is, basically, an increase of durability by one third (not entirely, since there are a few things like force weapons that circumvent it, but those are rare enough that neglecting them should still be good enough for a first order approximation). If increasing the durability by 100% is worth a 50% point increase, increasing it by 33% should be worth 50%/3=16.7%, i.e., one sixth.

    So, if this logic is sound (which it very well may not be, as there's a whole bunch of debatable assumptions in there), for a 30 point model like a Chaos Spawn, giving it 5+ FNP while keeping everything else equal should cost 30/6=5 points. If it's more, you would be getting more out of simply getting more models.

    EDIT: Mind, this is only first order approximation. It doesn't take into account what a unit is actually used for; durability increase on a unit that's meant as a tarpit only is more valuable than a damage increase, damage increase on a unit that's meant to do its damage and die (like Suicide Sternguard) is more valuable than a durability increase. For more accuracy, one would have to correct for this. That's where it gets much more difficult and ultimately subjective, though.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2014-04-06 at 04:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Here's the way I would look at it:
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    If you take two of a model, you get twice the durability and twice the damage output for twice the point cost, in other words, a 100% point cost increase.

    Now, it's debatable how much of this is for the durability increase and how much for the damage increase, but which one of the two is more valuable is situational. Let's tentatively postulate that both are are equally valuable (more on that, see down below); in other words, doubling the durability without doubling the damage output would be worth a 50% point cost increase.

    A 5+ FNP is, basically, an increase of durability by one third (not entirely, since there are a few things like force weapons that circumvent it, but those are rare enough that neglecting them should still be good enough for a first order approximation). If increasing the durability by 100% is worth a 50% point increase, increasing it by 33% should be worth 50%/3=16.7%, i.e., one sixth.

    So, if this logic is sound (which it very well may not be, as there's a whole bunch of debatable assumptions in there), for a 30 point model like a Chaos Spawn, giving it 5+ FNP while keeping everything else equal should cost 30/6=5 points. If it's more, you would be getting more out of simply getting more models.

    EDIT: Mind, this is only first order approximation. It doesn't take into account what a unit is actually used for; durability increase on a unit that's meant as a tarpit only is more valuable than a damage increase, damage increase on a unit that's meant to do its damage and die (like Suicide Sternguard) is more valuable than a durability increase. For more accuracy, one would have to correct for this. That's where it gets much more difficult and ultimately subjective, though.
    Hmm... that all makes sense. lets run that math into an example, the chrisis battle suit.
    T4, 2W, and a 3+ save, adding FNP boost servivabilaty around 1/3... esspecailly nice as it can give a save were they don't have one. so base cost over 1/6=22/6=3.666 but it costs 15 points... so not really worth it on that unit. jump up to a broad side, 65/6=11ish... so seems overcosted again, but is again totally worth it. I think you might be under shooting the cost of things.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Hmm yeah.. if that calculation should be correct Winter.. then the choice of having for example 6 Warp Spiders with FnP, or 7 of them without.. should have been a hard one. But really.. i cant imagine any situation where i would not rather have 6 of something with FnP, instead of 7 of them without it.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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