Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Requizen]

Actually, Codex: Space Marines is allowed to ally to itself, so long as you use different Chapter Tactics--so, Salamanders and White Scars, for instance. Aside from that, though, I believe you are correct, and that's kind of ridiculous.

In essence, it may be in place to allow different Ordos to ally with one another, but I haven't read the Codex close enough to say one way or another.

[Cheesegear]

It's this - Codex: Inquisition has, within it's Allies Matrix, a listing for..... Codex: Inquisition.

This is for when you have Inquisition (Primary Detachment), and another, Inquisitorial Detachment. Any army may take an Inquisitorial Detachment, including an Inquisitor's army.

Codex: Legion of the Damned, at least spells this out for clarification.

[Wraith]

Actually, Codex: Space Marines is allowed to ally to itself, so long as you use different Chapter Tactics--so, Salamanders and White Scars, for instance. Aside from that, though, I believe you are correct, and that's kind of ridiculous.

An excellent precedent, but it's a specific exception made by the Codex. Absolutely nothing is said about the different Ordos, with regards to allies, so I don't think there's an equivalent here.

This is for when you have Inquisition (Primary Detachment), and another, Inquisitorial Detachment. Any army may take an Inquisitorial Detachment, including an Inquisitor's army.

Codex: Legion of the Damned, at least spells this out for clarification.

Now that you say it, I have found the relevant passage, but even so it's still quite vague.

When you choose an army, Inquisitors may be taken as a primary detachment or as a special form of allied detachment known as an Inquisitorial detachment.

Presumably, them being taken as a normal Allied Detachment is specifically not mentioned because you're not supposed to be able to take them as an Allied Detachment, but only as a Primary or an Inquisitorial Detachment.
Had they simply repeated the single line from the MRB - "all units in the allied detachment must be chosen from the same codex, and this must be a different codex to the one used for the primary detachment" - it would have been much clearer.... But I'm sure that someone, somewhere, would try the old argument of "it doesn't say that it can't be done" by way of taking them as conventional Allies to another Codex, and there isn't much in the way of refuting that.

Clearly, Codex: Inquisition is not as well written as Legion of the Damned. Thanks, CG.

[*.*.*.*]

Speaking of Iron Hands, The sieg assault vanguard list got updated to sixth(http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...ssault_Van.pdf). Anyone else think an Iron Hand/Clan Raukaan SAV would be fun?

[Cheesegear]

Anyone else think an Iron Hand/Clan Raukaan SAV would be fun?

So long as you remember that a SAV list can't take Drop Pods, and, unless you control an objective in your opponents' DZ, you can't win. I think you're better off just cracking open IA2/2E and taking vehicles out of that.

Like I already did.


I've also discovered that I cannot - for the life of me - build any effective Tyranid list under 1700 Points.

[*.*.*.*]

I think you're better off just cracking open IA2/2E and taking vehicles out of that.

I like that Siege mantlets represent the endurance of the Hands. Combine that with Centurions out of contested spots, Clan Raukaan's love of Dreads in a Dread heavy list, and slotless Techmarines in a vehicle heavy list; you're looking at a fluffy and yet still semi-competitive list(or I'd like to think so).

By RAW, can Vaylund Cal benefit from Clan Raukaan's relics? I'm AFB and can't check the limitations

[Cheesegear]

I like that Siege mantlets represent the endurance of the Hands.

In a way that FNP/IWND doesn't? That you have to pay points for? That you can't have Dedicated Transports for?

Combine that with Centurions out of contested spots

Wrong. Centurion Assault Squads in the Troops slot are officially unusable. Did you know that for the minimum it costs to take 3 models, you can take a full ten-man Tactical Squad, in a Drop Pod, with some upgrades.

Clan Raukaan's love of Dreads in a Dread heavy list

All's Clan Raukaan does in that regard is remove the need to take a Master of the Forge. Well, that allows you to take your Chapter Master and Dreads too, I guess...Oh, hi Vaylund Cal, didn't see you there.

slotless Techmarines in a vehicle heavy list

Techmarines are always slotless. Oh, you get more of them, you mean? Great. Between spending points on Techmarines to fix vehicles, and even more points on Tactical Mantlets which are not vehicles, you're sure investing your points wisely.

you're looking at a fluffy and yet still semi-competitive list

By what metric? You're using a bunch of Walkers in an MC-dominated game. If Walkers could Fly you'd be onto something. But, as it stands, Walkers are the most dominated unit type in the game.

I think what you're missing is, are you running Clan Raukaan/Siege Assault Vanguard? Or are you running Siege Assault Vanguard as Primary with Clan Raukaan Allies?
(you do know that they're separate armies, right?)

Because your Clan Raukaan Scoring units must be in Drop Pods or on Bikes. Because you need to grab the Siege Objective or you straight up lose.

Vaylund Cal benefit from Clan Raukaan's relics?

Only the Helm, which nobody takes.

Clan Commandos, Rauk, rauk aan! (if you get the reference, you win)
Clan Raukaan / Space Marines (Iron Hands)

Chapter Master - 245 Points
Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer, Gorgon's Chain, Bike

Command Squad (x5) - 210 Points
Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Grav-Guns

Scouts (x5) - 55 Points
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points

Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points

Chapter Master - 250 Points
Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer, Shield Eternal, Bike

Scouts (x5) - 55 Points

Aegis Defense Line; Quad-Gun - 75 Points

Total: 1750 Points

Obviously, this represents some Iron Hands infighting where "Well, he's not my Chapter Master, I didn't vote for him!"

[*.*.*.*]

In a way that FNP/IWND doesn't? That you have to pay points for? That you can't have Dedicated Transports for?

Everyone gets FNP (6+). That's really underwhelming. You'll save one model or one wound out of 6. That's it. Then all your Characters get It Will Not Die which is similarly underwhelming

From your review, that doesn't sound very resilient.

Wrong. Centurion Assault Squads in the Troops slot are officially unusable. Did you know that for the minimum it costs to take 3 models, you can take a full ten-man Tactical Squad, in a Drop Pod, with some upgrades.

I meant Devastators in Elite instead of heavy

By what metric? You're using a bunch of Walkers in an MC-dominated game. If Walkers could Fly you'd be onto something. But, as it stands, Walkers are the most dominated unit type in the game.

I will concede on that, I guess I was thinking of my own MEQ/GEQ dominated Meta; not the competitive Meta.

I think what you're missing is, are you running Clan Raukaan/Siege Assault Vanguard? Or are you running Siege Assault Vanguard as Primary with Clan Raukaan Allies?
(you do know that they're separate armies, right?)

I honestly thought you could combine them since they were variants of the same army using the same chapter traits. My deepest apologies, glad I was corrected before I tried to make a list.

Only the Helm, which nobody takes.

No chain? That blows[/QUOTE]

[bluntpencil]

In a way that FNP/IWND doesn't? That you have to pay points for? That you can't have Dedicated Transports for?



Wrong. Centurion Assault Squads in the Troops slot are officially unusable. Did you know that for the minimum it costs to take 3 models, you can take a full ten-man Tactical Squad, in a Drop Pod, with some upgrades.



All's Clan Raukaan does in that regard is remove the need to take a Master of the Forge. Well, that allows you to take your Chapter Master and Dreads too, I guess...Oh, hi Vaylund Cal, didn't see you there.



Techmarines are always slotless. Oh, you get more of them, you mean? Great. Between spending points on Techmarines to fix vehicles, and even more points on Tactical Mantlets which are not vehicles, you're sure investing your points wisely.



By what metric? You're using a bunch of Walkers in an MC-dominated game. If Walkers could Fly you'd be onto something. But, as it stands, Walkers are the most dominated unit type in the game.

I think what you're missing is, are you running Clan Raukaan/Siege Assault Vanguard? Or are you running Siege Assault Vanguard as Primary with Clan Raukaan Allies?
(you do know that they're separate armies, right?)

Because your Clan Raukaan Scoring units must be in Drop Pods or on Bikes. Because you need to grab the Siege Objective or you straight up lose.



Only the Helm, which nobody takes.

Clan Commandos, Rauk, rauk aan! (if you get the reference, you win)
Clan Raukaan / Space Marines (Iron Hands)

Chapter Master - 245 Points
Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer, Gorgon's Chain, Bike

Command Squad (x5) - 210 Points
Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Grav-Guns

Scouts (x5) - 55 Points
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points

Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points
Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 125 Points

Chapter Master - 250 Points
Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer, Shield Eternal, Bike

Scouts (x5) - 55 Points

Aegis Defense Line; Quad-Gun - 75 Points

Total: 1750 Points

Obviously, this represents some Iron Hands infighting where "Well, he's not my Chapter Master, I didn't vote for him!"

You can't take a Conmand Squad without a Captain...

[Cheesegear]

I meant Devastators in Elite instead of heavy

...Wait, so your plan was to put Dreadnoughts into Heavy, and then Centurions into Elites. ...I don't...What.

I honestly thought you could combine them since they were variants of the same army using the same chapter traits.

No. Siege Assault Vanguard is an entirely separate army list. You can be Codex: Space Marines, or Siege Assault Vanguard. Forge World makes the distinction between the two several times.

No chain? That blows

Vaylund Cal is a special character. Taken as written. And he's not even an Iron Hand, but a Son of Medusa. What made you think he would have the Chain, from a specific Clan from a Chapter that he's not even in?

You can't take a Conmand Squad without a Captain...

This is true.
Drop the Command Squad into the Allied Detachment. Turn the Allied Chapter Master into a Captain, +30 Points gives you two extra Scouts and a Melta Bomb. ...Leave the Chapter Master with the Gorgon's Chain as-is.

[*.*.*.*]

...Wait, so your plan was to put Dreadnoughts into Heavy, and then Centurions into Elites. ...I don't...What.

Several ways to build a list?

No. Siege Assault Vanguard is an entirely separate army list.

Vaylund Cal is a special character. Taken as written. What made you think he would have the Chain?

I'm very new to the game, I had forgotten special characters couldn't take upgrades. Beyond the BRB, everything I learn from 40k is from here, /tg/, and whenever I can get the time to sit down with a codex(Only BA and SM, really)

[Cheesegear]

/tg/

...Oh...Right...Then I guess a lot of my post may come off as rude since I assume that you know what you're talking about. But, if you're learning from /tg/, you're already on the back foot. If you don't really know how to play the game, I would suggest not delving into Forge World and supplements.

[Drakenkin]

...
I've also discovered that I cannot - for the life of me - build any effective Tyranid list under 1700 Points.

Even using the skyblight swarm formation?

[Voidhawk]

I've also discovered that I cannot - for the life of me - build any effective Tyranid list under 1700 Points.

Even using the skyblight swarm formation?

From what I've seen, the Skyblight formation (while useful) is very expensive, containing as it does 4 monstrous creatures and 3 squads. At over 1700pts it is definitely a usable option. But no formation will fix the problem for low points games: that your Primary Detachment units don't work as intended.

Speaking of the Invasion formations: can Respawning gaunts/gargoyles be put into specialist reserve? (Deep Strike for gargoyles, Trygon Tunnels for gaunts.) An examination of the BRB suggests yes, but I'm not certain.

[Neon Knight]

Clan Commandos, Rauk, rauk aan! (if you get the reference, you win)

It has been a long time since I have seen a Homestar Runner reference on the internet. I salute you, good sir.

[Cheesegear]

Even using the skyblight swarm formation?

Formations aren't allowed. Supplemental Codecies, specific units (Tyrannic War Veterans), and Forge World, sure. But, not Formations.

I salute you, good sir.

Some people don't believe that I'm a massive nerd. Because I go to the gym and shave often. But, I assure you, I am a nerd.


In preparation for tonight's game, I'll be making my first foray into Grey Knights in 6th Edition.

Grey Knights/Inquisition vs. Chaos Space Marines/Daemons

Spoiler

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[Squark]

I see... 20 terminators, Coteaz, 2 squads of henchman (2x Jokaero, 2x ?, I think), the Stormravens, and... is that a Techmarine? Another inquisitor? Anyway, look forward to it. Interesting to see how that low model count works for you.

[Cheesegear]

I see... 20 terminators, Coteaz, 2 squads of henchman (2x Jokaero, 2x ?, I think)

Grey Knights / Inquisition

Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 Points

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband; x3 Warriors, x2 Crusaders [Axes] - 42 Points
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband; x2 Warriors, x2 Crusaders [Axes] - 38 Points

Terminators (x10) - 570 Points
x2 Psycannons & Swords, x4 Hammers, x2 Halberds, Brotherhood Banner, Psybolt Ammunition
+ Justicar Thrawn

Terminators (x10) - 495 Points
x2 Psycannons & Swords, x4 Hammers, x2 Halberds, Brotherhood Banner, Psybolt Ammunition
Justicar; Hammer

Stormraven Gunship - 255 Points
Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammunition

Stormraven Gunship - 255 Points
Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammunition

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 94 Points
x3 Servo Skulls, Psychotroke Grenades, Psyker, Liber Heresis

Total: 1849 Points

Ultimately, the thing I'm worried about are the 10 Spawn, and 9 Plague Drones. If I can get in combat with them, then I can S10 Hammerhand with the Terminators, but, then I'll be in combat with Spawn/Drones and be stuck forever. Spawn don't even count as Daemons.

[Voidhawk]

Formations aren't allowed. Supplemental Codecies, specific units (Tyrannic War Veterans), and Forge World, sure. But, not Formations.

Personal preference, local meta rules, tournament rules, or challenged by someone?

[Cheesegear]

local meta rules, tournament rules

For me, these two are one and the same. This is what tournaments in my area are going to be doing, so it doesn't make any sense for me to write lists that don't conform to the competitive environment. From the tournament standpoint, 'anybody can take a Formation' is broken, so it's not allowed. Similar with Escalation and SA. Escalation is straight-up broke because only a handful of armies have access to anything useful, at an affordable points cost.

Forge World, on the other hand, there is something for everyone if you have the right books. And, since I live in the AU, my lists get Comped, rather than have restrictions. So if I did have and bring 9 IG Quad-Guns, I'd be Comped for it. Well why don't you just Comp Formations, then? Because then everyone would take a Tau Fire Support Cadre and call it a day. Having the Top 8 in a tournament all have similar lists with similar elements is exactly what the hobby doesn't need.

[Eldan]

Well, we tabled two space marines in a 2 vs. 2 600 each point tournament by putting about 120 termagants on the table, backed up by two tyrants and some warriors.

I actually think nids can be very effective in smaller games.

[Arutha]

Alright, so I just started the hobby a few months ago, and was wondering if any one had tips for grey knights. I can proxy most things given time, so sny thing helps.

[Tome]

Alright, so I just started the hobby a few months ago, and was wondering if any one had tips for grey knights. I can proxy most things given time, so sny thing helps.

Random, possibly-not-helpful-at-all advice.

Spoiler

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Divination is the best discipline for psykers.

Inquisitors are good because they're cheap (and can be psykers).

Dreadknights are good.

Coteaz is generally an auto-pick. Even if you don't plan on taking Henchmen (which is silly, because Henchmen are dirt cheap and scoring with Coteaz) he's still awesome for everything else he does.

Dreadnoughts with two twin-linked autocannons and psybolt ammo are good for killing vehicles.

Be careful not to go overboard with upgrades. Everything is expensive enough as it is.

Assault is generally worse than shooting in 6th.

[Cheesegear]

and was wondering if any one had tips for grey knights. I can proxy most things given time, so sny thing helps.

Okay, Grey Knights have serious problems right now. Their 'best' build depends entirely on the meta that you're in, and, more importantly, none of their 'best' army builds have anything in common - save perhaps Coteaz - which means that it's basically impossible to build an 'all-comers' list. So, if you can proxy, that's kind of really good for you until you can figure out what you need.

On that note, where to begin? ...Coteaz. He's just so good. Now, some other characters do things better, but, for 100 Points, he's solid.

Alright, if you're in '5th Ed.', and everyone around you is still playing (Loyalist) Space Marines, your best bet is to load up with Warbands in Chimeras, with Psyflemen Dreadnoughts.

If Fliers are a concern in your metagame (especially Heldrakes), you'll want to load up on Terminators to escape the Baleflamer, and then you'll want to spam Purgation Squads with Psycannons to shoot those Fliers (especially Heldrakes) out of the sky.

If you're in the Eldar / Tau / Daemons meta, you'll want to load up with Crowe and Purifiers in Land Raiders.

If you're in the Eldar / Daemons meta (a.k.a. Council or Death Star Meta), your problem is Psykers and T4-muti-wounds (this works against some Tau builds, too), meaning that you'll need Stormravens with their anti-Psyker Missiles, and then when - not if - the Stars get in combat, you'll want as many Hammers as possible to get S8/S10 attacks. This is where the Terminators come in, which are also very helpful with Psybolt Ammo in dealing with Power Blobs.

Currently, in 6th, Grey Knights are a pain for beginners because what you should take is determined by the meta, and you learn the meta by playing games, but you haven't played games because you're a beginner.

[Arutha]

My meta is IG, Crons, and Tau( the guy does not like Kroot or riptides very much) for physical play, but we will use vassel some as well. Which means that we can use, say, Space Marines. I am the one in my group of friends that convinced us to play, so that's why the "Meta" is so small. I'm sure there are others who play near me, as my friend who plays crons got them from his brother.

[Cheesegear]

My meta is IG, Crons, and Tau (the guy does not like Kroot or riptides very much) for physical play, but we will use vassel some as well.

What kind of IG? AV14 Wall? Power Blob and Fliers? 5th Ed. Chimera-spam?
(EDIT: Although, knowing some Guard players and with a certain points value, they could probably do all of those things at the same time)

What kind of Necrons? Cron-Air? Ghost Ark spam? AV14 Monoliths? Wraith Stars? Tomb Spyder/C'Tan MC Spam?

I assume by your comment that the Tau player is playing Crisis Suits and Fire Warriors.

The second problem is that when I see "We use Vassal.", I see;
"We use janky builds that may or may not work due to our 4chan-esque grasp of the rules and I will quit the game if you tell me that my 'surprise' **** doesn't work. Way to waste my time and yours." or,
"We've net-listed like all get-out."

But, that's my experience with Vassal.

EDIT the double: Speaking of net-lists.

White Scars / Space Wolves

(W) Kor'Sarro Kahn; Moondrakkan - 150 Points

Chapter Master - 255 Points
Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer, Auspex, Bike, Shield Eternal

Command Squad (x5) - 260 Points
Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Melta Bombs, x3 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-guns

Wolf Lord - 280 Points
Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Runic Armour, Bike, Wolftooth Necklace, x2 Fenrisian Wolves, Saga of the Bear

Rune Priest; Runic Armour, Bike, Melta Bombs - 160 Points

1105 Points. Add Troops and Flier Defense.

Don't be afraid to Look Out, Sir! from the Master/Lord/Priest onto Kahn. The 3++ Grav-Guns are far more important than he is. As long as you aren't giving away Slay the Warlord, Kahn losing two Wounds is better than losing two Grav-Guns.

Your goal is to hit something with Grav-guns (Concussive) and then Charge in with the Thunder Hammers. Use the Chapter Master's Auspex. The Rune Priest can shut down Blessings so the Thunder Hammers can break as many things as possible. You've also got two Eternal Warriors. If you want, separate out the Rune Priest on your turn, shoot something with the Grav-guns, then follow up with Jaws, to Wound-soak, make sure you separate out the Wolf Lord and his Wolves to go with him just in case it goes wrong and your opponent shoots everything at the Rune Priest on his turn. Look Out, Sir! everything onto the Wolves, then onto the Eternal Warrior with the 3++, who can take it.

EDIT 3; Return of the Edit.
Imperial Guard can do anything!, 5 Chimeras, 2 Vendettas, 3 Leman Russes and a full-size Blob. Alternatively, you can drop the Exterminator for x2 Hydras, but, Vendettas are the best Fliers in the game (aside from the specific situations where Grey Knight Stormravens are the best thing since sliced bread) and you don't need Hydras. The Exterminator is there for AV14. Or you can just make it a Battle Tank.

[Arutha]

What kind of IG? AV14 Wall? Power Blob and Fliers? 5th Ed. Chimera-spam?
(EDIT: Although, knowing some Guard players and with a certain points value, they could probably do all of those things at the same time)

EDIT 3; Return of the Edit.
Imperial Guard can do anything!, 5 Chimeras, 2 Vendettas, 3 Leman Russes and a full-size Blob.

What kind of Necrons? Cron-Air? Ghost Ark spam? AV14 Monoliths? Wraith Stars? Tomb Spyder/C'Tan MC Spam?

I assume by your comment that the Tau player is playing Crisis Suits and Fire Warriors.

The second problem is that when I see "We use Vassal.", I see;
"We use janky builds that may or may not work due to our 4chan-esque grasp of the rules and I will quit the game if you tell me that my 'surprise' **** doesn't work. Way to waste my time and yours." or,
"We've net-listed like all get-out."

But, that's my experience with Vassal.

EDIT the double: Speaking of net-lists.

White Scars / Space Wolves

(W) Kor'Sarro Kahn; Moondrakkan - 150 Points

Chapter Master - 255 Points
Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer, Auspex, Bike, Shield Eternal

Command Squad (x5) - 260 Points
Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Melta Bombs, x3 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-guns

Wolf Lord - 280 Points
Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Runic Armour, Bike, Wolftooth Necklace, x2 Fenrisian Wolves, Saga of the Bear

Rune Priest; Runic Armour, Bike, Melta Bombs - 160 Points

1105 Points. Add Troops and Flier Defense.

Don't be afraid to Look Out, Sir! from the Master/Lord/Priest onto Kahn. The 3++ Grav-Guns are far more important than he is. As long as you aren't giving away Slay the Warlord, Kahn losing two Wounds is better than losing two Grav-Guns.

Your goal is to hit something with Grav-guns (Concussive) and then Charge in with the Thunder Hammers. Use the Chapter Master's Auspex. The Rune Priest can shut down Blessings so the Thunder Hammers can break as many things as possible. You've also got two Eternal Warriors. If you want, separate out the Rune Priest on your turn, shoot something with the Grav-guns, then follow up with Jaws, to Wound-soak, make sure you separate out the Wolf Lord and his Wolves to go with him just in case it goes wrong and your opponent shoots everything at the Rune Priest on his turn. Look Out, Sir! everything onto the Wolves, then onto the Eternal Warrior with the 3++, who can take it.

Um, by we will use vassal, I mean we won't be as restricted in what models we can take, which means we don't have to buy every thing we need to play all at once, only the rules. Which I have a copy of.
That looks like a cool list. I like SM bikes, but grey knights were more easy to find. I can proxy that list, though, so that's good.
As for builds, we are going to try out stuff on vassal, then decided what we really want. The only things I own that are real, non-proxy 40K are twenty grey knights, the rules, and the grey knight and SM codexs.

[Cheesegear]

Um, by we will use vassal, I mean we won't be as restricted in what models we can take, which means we don't have to buy every thing we need to play all at once, only the rules. Which I have a copy of.

That's how most people start out. It's a slippery slope.

That looks like a cool list. I like SM bikes

I'll just point out that the list wasn't for you, more of a general idea for people who are still playing Space Marines in 6th when the meta has clearly moved on. Especially since the Death Star is over 1000 Points and doesn't even have Troops yet. Although with Kahn at the helm you can just Reserve/Outflank all of your Scoring units so that they don't get killed immediately.


Also, the new Helbrutes coming out look awesome, they even come with more than zero options! Unfortunately, they're still Helbrutes, and about a year too late.

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious, is Mech completely unuseable the way the game is right now? I'm probably going to be reworking my army after I finish painting my pre-heresy marines. Which at the pace I'm going should take until next edition.

For reference, here's what I've been using:

Spoiler

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CSM main:
HQ: Chaos Lord, Mark of Nurgle, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Powerfist, Aura of Dark Glory. 145

Troops:
6 Plague Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Fist on the champion, Rhino. 234
6 Plague Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Fist on the champion, Rhino. 234
6 Plague Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Fist on the champion, Rhino. 234
HS:
3x 2 Obliterators, Mark of Nurgle. 456

CSM Total: 1331

IG Allies:
HQ: Primaris Psyker with divination (whichever lore had re-roll to hit). 70

Troops:
Veteran Squad with 3x Meltagun, Chimera. 155
Veteran Squad with 3x Meltagun, Chimera. 155

HS: Leman Russ Demolisher. 165

IG Total: 545

Army total: 1848

It's really boring I know, but I couldn't think of much better with what I have. What should I change about it? I'm assuming I should change the Demolisher for a Vendetta, but I don't have one and lack the budget.

[Drasius]

"Crimson Slaughter: A codex supplement allows units of possessed to be counted as troops choices."

Taken from here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...d=prod2440006a

Does this make possessed a terrible choice still, a less terrible choice, mediocre or passable? Is it the same issue as making berserkers troops in that you have your troops units rushing forward and getting shot/chopped? Does having cheap cultists to objective squat in the backfield mean this is not as big of a drawback as it otherwise might have been?