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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Emperor Tippy's Avatar

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    Default Potential Fix for the Warlock

    I was thinking earlier and I came up with a possible fix for the Warlock, to bring him more inline power wise with the other casters. This hasn't been play tested yet and I'm looking for some people to test it if any of you are interested.

    Every third warlock level give the warlock an extra warlock level.

    For example:

    Warlock 1 (Level 1)
    Warlock 2 (Level 2)
    Warlock 3 (Level 3)
    Warlock 4
    Warlock 5 (Level 4)
    Warlock 6 (Level 5)
    Warlock 7 (Level 6)
    Warlock 8
    Warlock 9 (Level 7)
    Warlock 10 (Level 8)
    Warlock 11 (Level 9)
    Warlock 12
    Warlock 13 (Level 10)
    Warlock 14 (Level 11)
    Warlock 15 (Level 12)
    Warlock 16
    Warlock 17 (Level 13)
    Warlock 18 (Level 14)
    Warlock 19 (Level 15)
    Warlock 20

    The bold levels are bonus levels which don't count towards ECL.

    So Warlock 20 becomes 15 class levels.

    Basically a pure Warlock is 5 class levels ahead of the rest of the party at level 15.

    Actual Levels count for such things as WBL and ECL and Feats and Max Skill Ranks.

    Warlock levels count toward skill points in that each Warlock level gives you skill points as if you had actually level;ed. Saves are based on Warlock levels, BAB is based on Warlock levels, Invocations are based on Warlock levels, and Class abilities are based on warlock levels.
    Last edited by Emperor Tippy; 2006-12-26 at 05:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Maybe. What's your reasoning behind it?

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Reasoning is that Warlocks are just *that* weak. I believe that even with this fix a warlock is not the equal to a Wizard, a Sorcerer, a Cleric, a Druid, or a Psion at level 20. I think that they are slightly ahead of the Bard.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    ...

    The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed. The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    ...

    The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed.
    Please, please tell me that you are not being serious.

    The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.
    Yes, in WLD which is basically 1 continuous encounter without rest a warlock would look overpowered. Any game that actually allows rest every 4 encounters will show the warlock to be vastly inferior pretty much every casting class in existence.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    ...

    The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed. The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.
    It is the weakest base class (arguably compared to the bard) that I have seen. If it was in any way powerful compared to others, none of you have any skill in building mechanically decent characters. This is a fact... (EDIT: Waaait a min. A drow warlock? So he was most powerful even with friggin level adjustment?! Did you know that he only gets one eldritch blast a round, not more based on BAB?)


    Anyways, interesting fix and should work. But what if I want to take 20 levels all in warlock? I get something like warlock 25? Also, does this get to epic (which is based on hd, not ecl) earlier?
    Maggots in the Meat: IC thread, OOC thread, dierolls

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    I'd suggest rather finding a way to make him more powerful than just shortening the duration someone spends as one(subtle hint).

    ie. something akin to making the blast a regular or the damage per blast increases with level.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    Anyways, interesting fix and should work.
    Thank you.

    But what if I want to take 20 levels all in warlock? I get something like warlock 25?
    Yes.

    Also, does this get to epic (which is based on hd, not ecl) earlier?
    I have to think about this one. I'm not even sure what an epic warlock looks like now. I've honestly never seen one past level 12.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    I once had a fix that relied heavily on homebrewing.

    First, I've changed the Eldritch Blast damage to 3d6 per four levels, rounded down (with a minimum of 1d6). So, if you're level 3, you get 2d6 damage per blast, if you're 7, you get 5d6 damage per blast, if you're level 8, you get 6d6 per blast.

    Second, I've doubled the rate the Warlock gains invocations. Everytime he would get a new invocation, he gets two instead. The Warlock would now have 23 invocations at level 20 (you still get one invocation at level 1).

    Of course, then I searched for some useful Warlock invocations. There were some nifty ones around here. Made by The Demented One, IIRC.

    Then decided it would almost be overpowered, then scratched the whole operation.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    ...

    The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed. The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.
    That speaks very, VERY poorly about the rest of your characters. Warlocks suck. OH NOES! A couple of d6es a round! How horrific!
    Even in a "continuous big fight" encounter like the WLD, Warlocks still shouldn't shine compared to any decently played and built character (not even optimized, just decent).

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Yeah. I could homebrew a good fix but it would take a while and could be very overpowered potentially (especially depending on how it interacts with other classes).

    I figured that this fix is easy to tweak (make the extra level every 4th or 5th level instead if you want a slight weakening) and I don't see any real ways to combine this into something horrendously overpowered.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Khantalas - Darn, things were looking so good until that last line.

    I'm going to be playing a Warlock (or at least I hope to) primarily for flavor in a more RP-oriented game, and didn't bother to inspect the class very closely.

    But your post begs the question: why did you just scrap the plan rather than applying tweakage? Sounds like you were pretty close to lifting the class into the same level of juicy goodness most other base classes are (supposedly) enjoying.
    Last edited by Velvet Elvis; 2006-12-26 at 06:09 PM. Reason: semi-ninja'ing munged by focus poster - huh?

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Well, you can still apply those changes. However, good luck on finding 23 worthy invocations around.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Complete Mage has some good invocations

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    The "bonus level every three levels" would get really confusing, and seems like to strange a way to solve the problem. I think Khantalas's solution of giving him more invocations and better blast damage is a way better solution. What the warlock really needs is some invocations that are better, and ways to improve those he already has.

    Maybe make invocations that stack (like allow two or three invocations modifying the blast to be applied as opposed to one), or have metamagic invocations (unless you can already do that) would solve some of the weakness issues.

    Of course, a clever DM could give the warlock his chance to shine by throwing a whole lot of encounters that drain the primary casters. Of course the fighters would still probably end up doing better. Meh.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenex View Post
    The "bonus level every three levels" would get really confusing, and seems like to strange a way to solve the problem.
    I don't really see whats confusing about it. Warlock 20 is ECL 15. Warlock 4 is ECL 3.

    I think Khantalas's solution of giving him more invocations and better blast damage is a way better solution.
    It may be, but I wanted something quick.

    What the warlock really needs is some invocations that are better, and ways to improve those he already has.
    Yeah. He could use some better invocations.

    Maybe make invocations that stack (like allow two or three invocations modifying the blast to be applied as opposed to one), or have metamagic invocations (unless you can already do that) would solve some of the weakness issues.
    But that involves lots of work to create, balance, and test.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    i guess the warlock that i play is totally different than the one from the books. my dm homebrewed up a warlock that totally rocks. in one round, at level one, i can deal 18d8 anti-matter damage (non-elemental, non-magic, no save) in a single round, if i roll my stats well (18 int and wis), and still be able to deal 1d10 a round thereafter. plus you get minor healing abilities, elemental damage (not magical elemental, straight elemental), and anti-magic, all at first level. at higher levels, you can recreate wizard spells, and can become better summoners than any caster in the game. (they are broken beyond all reason, but he doesnt know that, so i play one whenever possible =-D). so i guess because of not playing with core warlocks, i cant really give my opinion (that they need to be nerfed to be balanced).

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Mauril Everleaf View Post
    i guess the warlock that i play is totally different than the one from the books. my dm homebrewed up a warlock that totally rocks. in one round, at level one, i can deal 18d8 anti-matter damage (non-elemental, non-magic, no save) in a single round, if i roll my stats well (18 int and wis), and still be able to deal 1d10 a round thereafter. plus you get minor healing abilities, elemental damage (not magical elemental, straight elemental), and anti-magic, all at first level. at higher levels, you can recreate wizard spells, and can become better summoners than any caster in the game. (they are broken beyond all reason, but he doesnt know that, so i play one whenever possible =-D). so i guess because of not playing with core warlocks, i cant really give my opinion (that they need to be nerfed to be balanced).
    Wait while I puke my guts out.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    That speaks very, VERY poorly about the rest of your characters. Warlocks suck. OH NOES! A couple of d6es a round! How horrific!
    Even in a "continuous big fight" encounter like the WLD, Warlocks still shouldn't shine compared to any decently played and built character (not even optimized, just decent).
    That he doesn't run out of. WLD isn't just one continuous encounter; it's a continuous encounter a good 3 to 4 levels above the average party level. The spellcasters can and will run out of offensive spells after two or three fights. The warlock? Merrily blasts away all day, and the at-will invocations got us out of more jams than I care to count.

    Our DM just nixed level adjustment for the campaign; we die enough without it.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    That he doesn't run out of. (...) The spellcasters can and will run out of offensive spells after two or three fights. The warlock? Merrily blasts away all day, and the at-will invocations got us out of more jams than I care to count.
    Now you're gonna say that fighters are overpowered because they can swing their sword all day, aren't you?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Khantalas View Post
    Now you're gonna say that fighters are overpowered because they can swing their sword all day, aren't you?
    No, because the fighter's up front getting the living hell beaten out of him by the minotaur barbarians that have as many levels of barbarian as he has fighter in addition to being minotaurs. We lose an average of two characters per session; we've had nearly total party kills five times, with all except the last one being the warlock who escaped. The bastard was only taken down by the trapped teleporters that turn you to stone when you use them.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    And aren't there ranged combatants that can beat the warlock just as easily?

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    That he doesn't run out of. WLD isn't just one continuous encounter; it's a continuous encounter a good 3 to 4 levels above the average party level. The spellcasters can and will run out of offensive spells after two or three fights. The warlock? Merrily blasts away all day, and the at-will invocations got us out of more jams than I care to count.

    Our DM just nixed level adjustment for the campaign; we die enough without it.
    He doesn't run out. Great. Who cares if you can do your thing all day if your thing is sucking? Combat round after combat round, the Warlock contributes less than anyone except maybe a monk.

    The WLD is essentially the Warlock's ideal environment, but even there, it's far from overpowered. The fighter can swing his sword or shoot a bow all day, too, and do more damage.

    Warlocks are good at Not Dying, like monks... and, like monks, chronically incapable of doing anything useful each combat round.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Any ideas on what to do with Epic Warlock? The Complete Arcane says he doesn't get any more Invocations, nor are there Invocations of a level higher than "Dark" (with the Dark's highest spell-level equivalent being 8, if I recall correctly).

    This seems a bit unfair that when an Epic Wizard can carve for himself a new plane of existence and with a judicious use of acolytes can bring a world to an end, the most an Epic Warlock can do is still to blast an enemy with negative energy for negligible damage, perhaps drain a level or two.
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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    He gets a very sub-optimal feat that gives him one new invocation.

    And the highest Dark invocations has a level of 9, IIRC.

    Well, we should let an Epic Warlock take Epic Spellcasting. I don't care what the feat says.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    How about for the epic warlock he doesn't get any Epic Save or BAB. Instead he gets to continue his regular BAB and Save progression. And his invocation gain. Or allow epic invocations.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    But there's no such thing as Epic Invocations ;) And I'm at loss how to create any, so that they're neither grossly overpowered nor underpowered to what other arcane casters can do at the same level.
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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    Well an invocation that allows timestop at will would be epic. As would one that turns you into a Pit Fiend.

    Or allow them like you do epic spell creation but limit the invocation DC to the players Warlock levels. At Warlock level 30 you can create a DC 30 epic spell as an invocation. Or maybe even make it 1.5 times warlock levels so at warlock level 30 you can create a DC 45 epic invocation.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    I think the warlock is in line with other casters for one reason. I recently allowed someone to read a warlock after carefully reading all the invocations and the class details in the splatbook. They are easily the best at one thing that I can see:

    Crafting.

    They can fake any spell, even divine spells with a DC 25+ Spell Level for crafting, and they can take 10. This guy's level 9 warlock has a total of +17 use magic device (12 ranks, +5 charisma). Which means in a few levels when we've got some extra downtime, he can craft a wand/scroll of -any- spell, and use it just as easily (activate blindly is only a DC 25 check, after all).

    Sure their spell selection sucks; but if they've got a bit of extra exp or gold; send it towards some useful magic device. In the test run I ran with him (involving two other willing PC's characters, a Combat Control Fighter and a Sneaky Rogue) they managed to set off the alarm for a bandit camp and fought a series of encounters with no more then a few rounds (at most a minute) between them. The warlock got knocked out once from a sneak attack from a suggested rogue, but other then that when we playtested him he worked just fine.

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    Default Re: Potential Fix for the Warlock

    I'm thinking the level skipping provides more problems then it solves. If I thought Warlocks underpowered I'd enhance the things they do get: more DR, more invocations, more faster healing earlier.

    That said I play a 7th Warlock in Ptolus and, like Renegade Paladin, am having a ball doing it. Last session I killed a quarter of the things we faced (nice since I'm one-sixth of the party) then defended us from a formal Accusation of Heresy in the Church's court.

    At epic level I'm gonna seduce the Queen and befriend the King.
    Last edited by Diggorian; 2006-12-26 at 07:23 PM.
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