Dy5unctional Rule5

[nedz]

Over on the 3.5/PF sub-forum we have documented 479, and counting dysfunctions in the 3.5 and PF rulesets. Can we do the same for D&D Next — before it is published.

Well, the final play test packet is available, can we get ahead of the game ?

Ed: Actually the link they sent me was wrong — I guess I should have tested it first

Anyone have the correct link ?

[nedz]

Reserved for Index

[nedz]

Reserved .....

[Kurald Galain]

Sure.

A first-level rogue has a 50% chance of successfully getting anyone, even hostile creatures, to help him (as long as this involves no risk to the helping creature). An eleventh-level rogue does it 100% of the time. Why? The DC to do this is 20 on a hostile creature (15 on a neutral, 10 on a friendly). The L1 rogue has +3 charisma, +1 skill training, +5 expertise so succeeds on an 11+ on 1d20; the L11 rogue has +5 / +3 / +5 and treats any trained skill roll of 1-9 as a 10 so auto-succeeds. This is basically 5E's version of the Diplomancer.

Given how the rules are written, it should be easy to come up with more of these.

[Arbane]

This webcomic thinks they've found one. (Disclaimer: No idea if it's accurate.)

[Kurald Galain]

This webcomic thinks they've found one. (Disclaimer: No idea if it's accurate.)

Yes, pretty much. A red dragon (level 13 creature) has +7 to strength checks. This means it can break down a wooden door 85% of the time, bend a portcullis 15% of the time, and break down an iron door absolutely never (since it has DC 60).

(edit) Also, this dragon has a 20% chance of losing a grappling check against a commoner

Speaking of which, it's dysfunctional that the DC for breaking down certain kinds of walls and doors is well above the maximum DC in the DC table, which is 35 for godlike tasks. I don't think it's particularly godlike to break down a door...

(edit) oh, here's a fun one. Prismatic Spray, the traditional rainbow spell from Vance's Dying Earth, now has eight colors. Shocking Grasp is now a ranged spell (very short range, but still not a grasp).

[nedz]

So 5E doesn't support the Kick—in—the—door style play then ? At least until high level, when it does.

[Ksheep]

(edit) oh, here's a fun one. Prismatic Spray, the traditional rainbow spell from Vance's Dying Earth, now has eight colors. Shocking Grasp is now a ranged spell (very short range, but still not a grasp).

Of course it has eight colors. What sort of wizard hasn't heard of Octarine, the color of magic?

[Sith_Happens]

Speaking of which, it's dysfunctional that the DC for breaking down certain kinds of walls and doors is well above the maximum DC in the DC table, which is 35 for godlike tasks. I don't think it's particularly godlike to break down a door...

Huh, how many bad DMs and hack module writers do you think lobbied for that little "feature?"

[Mando Knight]

Huh, how many bad DMs and hack module writers do you think lobbied for that little "feature?"

Well, any modern gamer will tell you that walls and doors are tougher than battle tanks except when explicitly designed to break.

[obryn]

A Fighter 9/Paladin 6 with 20 Str and 20 Con essentially can't ever die from HP damage.

-O

[Grod_The_Giant]

... this is going to turn into another multi-page argument about how the math isn't goofy because a good GM can ignore the math when it gives silly results, isn't it?

DC 60 for ANYTHING in a system with bounded accuracy is unbelievably stupid, though. Seriously, guys. Iron doors? Not even adamantine, just iron? Time to go build a castle entirely out of iron doors...

[NeoPhoenix0]

With the multiclass rules at the moment, If a druid takes one level of any other spellcasting class and goes all druid the rest of the way, they have a normal amount of spell slots, as opposed to their decreased number of slots. So a druid of the land with one level of wizard or cleric has more slots than any other caster, with very little given up.

It's minor but seems very strange.

[obryn]

I can't believe I missed this, but a 2-level dip into Wizard gives everyone who attacks you Disadvantage on all their attacks. Always.

A 2-level dip into Cleric can mean your Reaction can give an attacker in range disadvantage against you, or against anyone else, every round forever.

None of the stuff Fighters get in 2 levels is anywhere near this cool.

-O

[Ksheep]

So, by the sounds of it, multi-classing in general is dysfunctional more often than not. Do you think they'll revise the rules for this before release, or just hope nobody notices?

[obryn]

So, by the sounds of it, multi-classing in general is dysfunctional more often than not. Do you think they'll revise the rules for this before release, or just hope nobody notices?

My advice is to scrap the whole thing because squashing broken combos will limit how interesting and functional classes are.

-O

[Flickerdart]

A multiclass Rogue/Barbarian gets Sneak Attack on every attack while in a frothing axe-swinging frenzy.

[NeoPhoenix0]

So wait, is 5E going to be the edition of if you aren't taking at least two classes you are not optimized?

[Sith_Happens]

You know, most of this multiclassing stuff sounds more like a feature than a bug to me.

[AuraTwilight]

You know, most of this multiclassing stuff sounds more like a feature than a bug to me.

9th level characters should be immune to HP damage?

[Eldan]

9th level characters should be immune to HP damage?

Why not, if that's what you specialize in?

[TuggyNE]

Why not, if that's what you specialize in?

Righty-o then, I'll be over here with the ~90% of monsters that try to do hit point damage. Crying.

Does Next even have any enemies with non-HP ways to kill or seriously inconvenience you at that level, I wonder?

[obryn]

So wait, is 5E going to be the edition of if you aren't taking at least two classes you are not optimized?

Right now, with the way it's shaping up? Yep.

And given how much I dislike multiclassing to start with - especially buffet-style multiclassing - it's a big strike against the system so far.

[Scow2]

Righty-o then, I'll be over here with the ~90% of monsters that try to do hit point damage. Crying.

Does Next even have any enemies with non-HP ways to kill or seriously inconvenience you at that level, I wonder?

Several. You're drifting around at 1 HP, which means ALL Save-or-Dies (Which I think are now just HP checks) will work against you.

[Mando Knight]

9th level characters should be immune to HP damage?

It's 15th level unless you have a Paladin ally that you always stay within 10' of.

[Flickerdart]

You know, most of this multiclassing stuff sounds more like a feature than a bug to me.

"If you take these classes you're a fearsome warrior who fears no blade" is fine, and might have been intended. "If you're berserking, you become great at hitting hidden weak points of distracted enemies" was almost certainly not.

[noparlpf]

"If you take these classes you're a fearsome warrior who fears no blade" is fine, and might have been intended. "If you're berserking, you become great at hitting hidden weak points of distracted enemies" was almost certainly not.

No, see, they're distracted because you're berserking. It's a perfect synergy.

[Scow2]

Nobody expects the Barbarian to have levels in Rogue, nor does anyone expect the rogue to have levels in Barbarian!

And what makes Reckless Strike reckless isn't that it's "I don't care how I hit them" - it's "I don't care if they hit me - I'm hitting them where it hurts." Not really a dysfunction, even if it is powerful. The enemies aren't distracted - The Barbarian Rogue is just hyperfocused.

When you're not raging, you're leaving yourself open to drive your weapon into hidden weak points. When you are raging, you maintain enough clarity to see and target the weakpoints without exposing yourself.

Multiclass Barbarian/rogue is a feature, not a bug, and balance wise... makes for a pretty devastating striker... but it slows SA damage increases (By at least two levels) compared to a normal rogue, who's getting SA damage anyway because of his Backstab ability (Did they get rid of Isolated Strike for the more duelist and assassin types?). A barbarian with a dip in rogue has his survivability, attack progression, and Crazy Barbarian Shenanigans slowed.

[obryn]

I dunno. I think even a cursory glance at balance shows that these multiclass combos are issues. There's no sense in which a Fighter should be better at Fighting because they took 2 levels of Wizard.

If this is the sort of thing that's intended in the system, make it part of the core class advancement structure.

-O

[Scow2]

I think the Wizard thing is definitely an issue (I did a spit-take when I saw that ability). When I read the fluff, I expected it to be some kind of aura or at-will 'mark' he could put on specific targets, not just a constant "Nobody can attack me"