would it be reasonable to say a paladin wouldn't fall due to this?

[Stake A Vamp]

so, my plans are to have the party be led to believe that a dragons horde would be easy to loot because the dragon is practically in a coma, and leed them to try to get some cool weapons or armour. the result is that they become trapped by the dragon, who initially decides to kill them, then remembers that he has a problem, wererats living in a series of caves behind his lair have looted valuable but non-magical crystalline weapons (three of them, from a set representing the sacred weapons of each deity). he offers them a trade, the entrance from the caves to his lair is to small for him to follow, but he does deeply desire those weapons recovered, that set is the prize of his horde. he says that if they do this, he will spare thier lives and give them "perhaps a minor trinket or blade, that is what you planned to steal from me, is it not?"

so the facts
-the dragon is green, and therefore lawful-evil
-the wererats are chaotic-evil
-the three weapons are non-magical, and the set has no powers, they are just pretty.
-one of the PC's is a paladin

would it be reasonable to allow the paladin to work for the evil dragon if it benefits him and his allies in the fight against evil, saves their lives, and does not require him to commit evil acts. i don't want to put the paladin in a position where the choices are die or fall.

[lunar2]

great thing about being a DM. you decide when he falls or not. technically, he should fall if he completes the job, because he's knowingly working for an evil creature. but that won't happen until he actually completes the job, so just make sure the "trinket" is valuable enough to justify an atonement.

[Amaril]

I don't see any problem with this. If I'm remembering right, paladins are allowed to work with evil creatures and characters under certain circumstances, one of which is in the pursuit of a greater evil (not that the wererats are more dangerous than the dragon, but they're still dangerous and should be dealt with). Also, the paladin isn't really helping the dragon out very much by doing this--the weapons aren't magical, they're just pretty trinkets, what's the dragon going to do with them? It's not like the paladin is helping the dragon raze a village by retrieving a powerful magical artifact with destructive powers. I almost certainly wouldn't penalize a paladin for this (although I might have their deity, if any, issue them a stern warning at the first opportunity).

[Winds]

Completing the job for pay is, I would argue, less evil than stealing the stuff. If he wasn't risking a fall by one, he shouldn't risk a fall by the other. Unless he specifically swore not to knowingly collude with an 'Evil' being. (In which case, I would have a higher-up of his order reprimand him for getting into that situation, and not worry about falling unless it becomes a pattern for this character.)

[originalginger]

I personally don't see dragons as 'always evil' even if the source books say so. They are complex and intelligent beings, and likely have their own morals and values they have developed over their long lives. So, I see no reason why your dragon must be lawful evil.

Even if the dragon is evil, if the Paladin is doing a non-evil quest, even an the behest of an evil creature, I personally see no issue. If there is good reason for him to to believe the quest is for the greater good, and he can reasonably assume that the quest won't directly aid in later evil deeds, I think that the Paladin can proceed with a clear conscience.

[Alex12]

Perfectly reasonable, IMHO, especially if the dragon isn't actively doing evil stuff. If he's going out on a regular basis and ravaging the countryside or something, then it's more wibbly.

Now, if he were asking you to retrieve some component for a powerful evil ritual or something, that would be different.

[TriForce]

seeing as that the other alternative is the dragon killing him and his team, one can very plausibly argue that the paladin ISNT working for a dragon, hes activly protecting his team. so no, i wouldnt let him fall for it ( unless he chooses to ask the dragon for more quests or something like that)

[Stake A Vamp]

great thing about being a DM. you decide when he falls or not. technically, he should fall if he completes the job, because he's knowingly working for an evil creature. but that won't happen until he actually completes the job, so just make sure the "trinket" is valuable enough to justify an atonement.

true, i take it that it saves 4 other peoples lives would not be considered an extenuating circumstance in your opinion

Perfectly reasonable, IMHO, especially if the dragon isn't actively doing evil stuff. If he's going out on a regular basis and ravaging the countryside or something, then it's more wibbly.

Now, if he were asking you to retrieve some component for a powerful evil ritual or something, that would be different.

yeah, that's why i specified that they were non-magical, i have to run a small adventure because half my party cannot be here, so i needed a cool but plot-irrelevant adventure

also, the dragon hasn't left irt's lair in 200 years, hence the elves thinking it was in a coma.

[navar100]

What was the paladin doing trying to steal something anyway? Just because it's a dragon doesn't mean the paladin has a right to steal. The paladin doesn't fall. He was just being stupid. Having to work for a dragon, and not liking it, is his "punishment". The blade or armor he gets as payment will always remind him of his weakness of hubris and hopefully he shall never try to steal something again. Use a dream or a representative messenger from his deity to teach the lesson. Do this as a private one-on-one with the player or over email. It's a roleplay thing but don't embarrass the player in front of the others.

Out of character, when you say you plan on having the players think they can just waltz in a dragon's lair, how literal do you mean your plan? If you're forcing the adventure then you are putting the paladin into a bad spot. It becomes partly your fault as DM, with "fault" not meant as derogatory. It's an entrapment, and it would be unfair to punish the player's character because of it. It's still also the player's/party's fault for doing it, so the paladin getting his lesson above in character still works. That there are no game mechanics repercussions is your acknowledgement of the entrapment.

Edit: Perhaps the green dragon is actually a gold/silver/bronze dragon in disguise and it is the one who teaches the paladin the lesson when the adventure is done.

[JusticeZero]

No, I wouldn't have him fall for doing a quest to defeat evil. Gawd. It's not like he's going out and torching orphanages here.

[nedz]

Dragons Colour Coded for your Convenience — but does the Paladin know this ?
Just how good is his Knowledge Arcana ?

In any event the party, having been caught attempting some larceny, are now doing some vermin control and recovery of stolen property. Sounds like restorative justice to me.

The Dragon hasn't shown his true colours, so to speak, in fact he has acted in a manner consistent with LG — even if that is not his motivation. This Dragon is setting an example the Paladin should perhaps have given

I don't see anything approaching a fall here, other than the original larceny perhaps ?

[Mando Knight]

In any event the party, having been caught attempting some larceny, are now doing some vermin control and recovery of stolen property. Sounds like restorative justice to me.

The Dragon hasn't shown his true colours, so to speak, in fact he has acted in a manner consistent with LG — even if that is not his motivation. This Dragon is setting an example the Paladin should perhaps have given

I don't see anything approaching a fall here, other than the original larceny perhaps ?

I mean, seriously. The dragon is actually giving them a chance to live and even give them a reward in exchange for a task, even though they tried to steal from the dragon.

The non-association thing in the default Paladin's Code isn't "No, you can't complete any mutually-beneficial tasks given to you by an Evil character holding you at its mercy," it's "Don't be an idiot and be the serial killer's drinking buddy." Hinjo managed to stay a Paladin for months despite allowing Kubota to stay alive and in a position of authority in the flotilla, as an example.

[Mr Beer]

I don't see this as evil. Now if he was knowingly retrieving an Evil artefact for the dragon's nefarious purposes, that would be different.

[Deffers]

I'm going to echo the sentiment of "For a Lawful Evil dragon, he's pretty nice."

I think it'd probably be worse if the paladin immediately assumed this dude was evil after such kind treatment. "Oh, you're trying to rob me? Heh, no. Go down to the warrens, kill those Evil monsters and I'll let you live AND take some stuff, though." I mean, he gets part of the dragon's hoard! There are metallic dragons that wouldn't part so easily with some of their treasure. Maybe ol' Greenie's turning over a new leaf, assuming he was even the village ravaging type to begin with. TBH he sounds like he's more concerned with artistry. You could even spin him into a long-term contact. Sort of a draconic art collector.

[Emmerask]

He was actively helping in trying to steal something for personal gain...
here are no gray areas and no ifs or buts, he should have fallen right there and then.

Now helping the green dragon, there is enough wiggle room (the deed itself is not evil, not all green dragons must be evil, he is protecting his friends etc) so that its an acceptable adventure that while not giving good karma points also should not give negative ones.

However I would strongly suggest to talk about what a paladin actually is and should stand for, there are alternatives that might be better suited for the particular player (paladin of freedom etc )

[Mando Knight]

Actually, a Green would possibly have planned this all along. Get a few upstart adventurers thinking you're pretty generous after all, help them solve a couple of problems...

...and by the end of it, you have your own little society to play around with until you get bored with it. Like an ant farm, except that you might occasionally get someone worth conversing with.

[nedz]

Alternatively of course: once they've done the vermin control and returned the stolen goodies, being of no more use to him, Mr. Green Dragon decides that he fancies a little bit of lunch.

[Brookshw]

Wait, so the question is will a paladin fall for responding to a "help, I've been robbed"?

[RochtheCrusher]

I personally don't see dragons as 'always evil' even if the source books say so. They are complex and intelligent beings, and likely have their own morals and values they have developed over their long lives. So, I see no reason why your dragon must be lawful evil.

Seconded. Saying that a species of dragon has a certain alignment makes about as much sense as sayingthat Elves are Lawful Good, or that dogs are friendly and never bite, or that skies are cloudy rather than clear. Any race with free will is going to have the usual assortment of allignments, just like humans, and saying otherwise is pretty silly.

I also find it amusing to think that, just because someone is mean, you must refuse to mow their lawn for pay and must also stab them immediately. There are as many different degrees of Evil out there, and each requires its own approach. Any system of morality where you can kill someone for the sin of being greedy, take their stuff, and not immediately Fall for it is just plain laughable.

[NichG]

Keep in mind that whatever you decide on the matter, the person playing the paladin has no real way of knowing. If you decide its fall-worthy or not, its still the same blank slate to the player.

So be prepared for the player insisting 'I can't do this, I would fall' and refusing to cooperate, even if you decide it isn't fall-worthy.

[TuggyNE]

I'm going to echo the sentiment of "For a Lawful Evil dragon, he's pretty nice."

This seems a bit like CoffeeIncluded's green dragon in Murphy's Law, yeah; a lot closer to LN than LE.

Maybe ol' Greenie's turning over a new leaf

Ohoho, I see what you did there.

[Emmerask]

So be prepared for the player insisting 'I can't do this, I would fall' and refusing to cooperate, even if you decide it isn't fall-worthy.

Seeing that the player as it seems was a-okay with robbery for his own gain, I dont think he will suddenly have any moral doubts

[Deffers]

This seems a bit like CoffeeIncluded's green dragon in Murphy's Law, yeah; a lot closer to LN than LE.

Gonna be honest, this may be influencing my perception of the dragon, yeah.

Although I am wondering at the dragon's reason for not going down there. Not knowing much about dragons, aren't all of them supposed to have either polymorph or shapechange or something to take on a different form? Or is that just some of them?

Oh well. If I could have a bunch of gnomes herd mice out of my house instead of using my Fantastic Voyage ray gun to take them out, I... wow, that analogy is entirely nonsenical and unhelpful.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Not evil.

Paladin is Lawful Good, Dragon is Lawful Evil.

Paladin was about to get killed by said Dragon, but then given a chance to live. Any action the Paladin takes after this is under duress and cannot be construed as Evil, unless he takes pleasure in said act or would do evil act without involvement from said Dragon.

Paladin might like to recluse himself from partaking in the monetary reward as to further distance himself from the dragon's alignment.

Also alignment should only be effected if player knowingly commits an evil act, not if he just happens to do a Neutral job for an Evil entity.

Ms. Baker might need someone to deliver a package to the Blacksmith, but just because she is a follower of Loth doesn't mean her package of rolls are evil. :P

I rest my case.

[oudeis]

He was actively helping in trying to steal something for personal gain...
here are no gray areas and no ifs or buts, he should have fallen right there and then.

.....

However I would strongly suggest to talk about what a paladin actually is and should stand for, there are alternatives that might be better suited for the particular player (paladin of freedom etc )

This makes no sense. Attempting to reclaim a long-lost treasure is grounds for excommunication? You have just removed the Paladin as a viable adventuring class and thus effectively from the game. Also, and this is something that seems to be omitted from every discussion of Paladins I've seen, is the need for the GM to provide the player with a code of acceptable conduct for his character.

It is the GM's responsibility to proactively, cooperatively, and specifically define the conditions under which a Paladin can Fall from Grace, as well as what would be required to expiate his transgression.

If the OP hasn't done so already, he needs to sit down (actually or virtually) with the Paladin player and write out a mutually acceptable guideline. It should be in keeping with the spirit of the class, the accepted character of the deity he follows, and the particulars of the campaign. For example, if you feel that a Paladin should never dishonor the dead then don't give him a quest where he must bring the head of a notorious brigand chief back to the Mayor of Adventuretown, but if his Deity is an unrelenting enemy of the undead, then burning the bodies of a family drained by a Vampire/Wight/whatever is not just accepted but actually required.

In this case, no, there is no problem. Destroying evil should never be a sin, even if it is done at the behest of another- greater- evil.

[Slipperychicken]

This sounds like a violation of "knowingly associate with evil characters", but not a gross one, since the Paladin is under duress and defeating another evil in the process. So I wouldn't fall him for it unless he made a habit of taking jobs from Evil characters.


If the dragon was instead a fiend, however, then it would be an obvious case for the Paladin to fall. Thankfully s/he isn't a fiend, so that gives the Paladin (and GM) a little more leeway.

[Stake A Vamp]

This makes no sense. Attempting to reclaim a long-lost treasure is grounds for excommunication? You have just removed the Paladin as a viable adventuring class and thus effectively from the game. Also, and this is something that seems to be omitted from every discussion of Paladins I've seen, is the need for the GM to provide the player with a code of acceptable conduct for his character.

It is the GM's responsibility to proactively, cooperatively, and specifically define the conditions under which a Paladin can Fall from Grace, as well as what would be required to expiate his transgression.

If the OP hasn't done so already, he needs to sit down (actually or virtually) with the Paladin player and write out a mutually acceptable guideline. It should be in keeping with the spirit of the class, the accepted character of the deity he follows, and the particulars of the campaign. For example, if you feel that a Paladin should never dishonor the dead then don't give him a quest where he must bring the head of a notorious brigand chief back to the Mayor of Adventuretown, but if his Deity is an unrelenting enemy of the undead, then burning the bodies of a family drained by a Vampire/Wight/whatever is not just accepted but actually required.

In this case, no, there is no problem. Destroying evil should never be a sin, even if it is done at the behest of another- greater- evil.

thank you, i think i shall do so next gaming session.

also, curse you because you got this song stuck in my head

[oudeis]

This sounds like a violation of "knowingly associate with evil characters", but not a gross one, since the Paladin is under duress and defeating another evil in the process. So I wouldn't fall him for it unless he made a habit of taking jobs from Evil characters.


If the dragon was instead a fiend, however, then it would be an obvious case for the Paladin to fall. Thankfully s/he isn't a fiend, so that gives the Paladin (and GM) a little more leeway.

The Paladin isn't palling around with the Dragon, he's performing a task under compulsion. If he knowingly abetted the beast in furtherance of a plan to eat a farming village in exchange for the +4 Sword of Asskicking, then yes, he's going to fall. As for the Fiend example you cited, the GM should NOT put the player in that position: forcing him to choose between getting killed and losing his paladinhood is a completely bull**** move. If this happens because of questionable actions on the part of the player then he brought it on himself and it's his own fault; otherwise, there should be some sort of out or third option that the player would have to find through cleverness, guile, or diligence.

[Stake A Vamp]

i just have to mention the paladin code on this forum to begin a debate, don't I?

some people never learn

[Eric Tolle]

He was actively helping in trying to steal something for personal gain...
here are no gray areas and no ifs or buts, he should have fallen right there and then.

Remember kids, there's an easy way to tell if a paladin had fallen:

Q: Is the paladin breathing?
A: Then he has fallen.

There ya go!