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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    The context of the spell suggests you are incorrect about that. As there are no examples to support your case (anywhere) I am forced to disagree with your conclusion.
    How does it suggest that? Just saying that my reading is wrong doesn't seem like enough. Besides that, I determined a perfectly reasonable way to word the trigger as a condition that is occurring to the wizard, so it doesn't matter much.


    Sorry, what 'other' meaning would cast upon have?
    Anything that has the wizard in its area, rather than just anything that has the wizard as its target. It's rather irrelevant though.


    Oh, you mean a continuous PFE? Hey, by the rules it is possible, but I've still never seen one in a game. Have you? (I'm just saying)
    Not in particular, though there was this weird mind blank item this one time. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that other people on this thread have experienced such an item.

    Ah I just did a quick google instead of cracking the MIC, so I only saw the retargeting power. Yeah, that'd work if you had a method for counterspelling. If it's a CL 20 spell though, the ring won't work (1d20 + 10 vs 11 + CL)
    I think that the ring provides its own counterspell, though the rest is true. You could technically do it with some item help, like a dispelling cord, but it's not a consistent enough method to be a workable solution. It's probably best to use a contingency of some kind, possibly with the ring so that you're not caught unawares.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2013-10-23 at 03:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Ice Assasin + MDJ = a lot of melting ice, not a squished wizard.
    If wizard has mentioned before adamantine hat of things blocking then by casting MDJ on him you are giving yourself disservice.
    And to be honest - if trigger for contingency can be "hearing a certain phrase" then I think that legitimate trigger would be also hearing someone cast Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic or MDJ. It would probably need a lot of boosting to Listen checks and would be vulnerable to Silent Spell but I think this still woul be pretty neat way to be mean to other casters :-)

    Also Pickford - if I remember correctly merely starting your own cult would not grant you Divine Ranks.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Aside from previously mentioned magic items and the custom item creation rules regarding permanent PFE etc, isn't protection/magic circle vs evil something you can add into a consecrate spell, which lasts (IIRC) one year?

    In a non-low magic setting, a lot of important areas such as temples and throne rooms are consecrated/desecrated depending on deity. You know, where the important people you'd really like to mind control tend to hang out.

  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewraith View Post
    Aside from previously mentioned magic items and the custom item creation rules regarding permanent PFE etc, isn't protection/magic circle vs evil something you can add into a consecrate spell, which lasts (IIRC) one year?
    It's with Hallow/Unhallow, not Consecrate/Desecrate, and the Magic Circle Against X effect is always a part of the spell and lasts indefinitely. Only the additional spell tied to the area is limited to a one-year duration.

    So it's 1,000 gold and a 5th-level spell to cover an area with the effect, which is a pretty good deal.
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-10-23 at 10:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Yeah....so, you seem to have failed to grasp this in two threads now. I'll spell it out. The SRD is the bits of 3.5 that WotC has deemed OGL. It's flat-out illegal to post rules from, say, Complete Arcane without WotC's explicit permission. The SRD is complete and useful in and of itself; you simply have to have the mental wherewithal to distinguish between "SRD" and "all of the rules ever published in any book."
    This is quite patently incorrect.

    How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
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  6. - Top - End - #996

    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    TuggyNE:
    So… you're just going to ignore my points on why a lack of explicit save language is to be expected in context, and does not and cannot override the explicit presence of saves for attended objects/characters? Rightyo then.
    I didn't ignore your point. I mentioned that the Wall of Fire spell doesn't even mention subjects potentially catching on fire even though it describes damage and other things for walking through said Wall of Fire. Burning Hands on the other hand is explicit in saying that if flammable objects are hit, they catch fire. The DMG description of Heat Dangers indicates that Wall of Fire will make those who walk through it catch on fire unless they pass the Reflex save. Those are two substantially different mechanics at work.

    Let's resummarize shall we?

    Burning Hands: Says flammable things catch fire.
    Wall of Fire: Says nothing about things catching fire.

    Heat Danger: Says what happens if something is on fire, and indicates if a subject might catch fire...and that's the part that Burning hands changes, the if.


    Eggynack:
    How does it suggest that? Just saying that my reading is wrong doesn't seem like enough. Besides that, I determined a perfectly reasonable way to word the trigger as a condition that is occurring to the wizard, so it doesn't matter much.
    The context of the spell requires a condition occurring to the subject. A condition is a set of circumstances. Words and Thoughts are not Circumstances, they are words or thoughts. It's like saying: Well, a word can describe an Object, therefore it 'is' an Object. In the same way that a word or thought is not an object, they are not conditions. Contingencies also don't function based on what other creatures are doing or having done to them, only what is happening 'to' the subject.

    Lastly, Eggynack, there are 0 examples in the vein of Thoughts or Words as fulfilling a condition occuring to the subject. Now, if you can find, in a published source, such a usage, I'll gladly retract my objection and revise my consideration of the spell.

    Anything that has the wizard in its area, rather than just anything that has the wizard as its target. It's rather irrelevant though.
    Interesting, however, there are two problems: 1) MD doesn't effect creatures per se, it works on magical effects and magic items within an area. 2) Per the PHB 175 on aiming a spell, only spells that have a target or targets are cast 'on' a creature or object. Otherwise they are actually cast on a location or area. In essence, the only described method for casting a spell on/upon someone is to target them with it, which only occurs with 'target' spells.

    I think that the ring provides its own counterspell, though the rest is true. You could technically do it with some item help, like a dispelling cord, but it's not a consistent enough method to be a workable solution. It's probably best to use a contingency of some kind, possibly with the ring so that you're not caught unawares.
    iirc the ring says it's as dispel magic, /shrug.

    Abaddona:
    Ice Assasin + MDJ = a lot of melting ice, not a squished wizard.
    If wizard has mentioned before adamantine hat of things blocking then by casting MDJ on him you are giving yourself disservice.
    And to be honest - if trigger for contingency can be "hearing a certain phrase" then I think that legitimate trigger would be also hearing someone cast Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic or MDJ. It would probably need a lot of boosting to Listen checks and would be vulnerable to Silent Spell but I think this still woul be pretty neat way to be mean to other casters :-)

    Also Pickford - if I remember correctly merely starting your own cult would not grant you Divine Ranks.
    No? A shame. Oh, a quick show of hands, since I'm guessing we all have made a wizard at one point or another: Who has an adamatine hat that's got permanent shrink item on it?

    Ahem...not saying it's impossible, obviously it's possible, but...has it ever happened? (the world will never know) ;)

    Sorry, can you quote the exact page location where the rules say "hearing a cerain phrase" is a valid condition for a contingency? I am not seeing it anywhere, so I'd appreciate the assist.

  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddona View Post
    Ice Assasin + MDJ = a lot of melting ice, not a squished wizard.
    Nope, Ice Assassin is Instantaneous Duration. MDJ does nothing more than it would do to any other creature.[/QUOTE]
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  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    The context of the spell requires a condition occurring to the subject. A condition is a set of circumstances. Words and Thoughts are not Circumstances, they are words or thoughts. It's like saying: Well, a word can describe an Object, therefore it 'is' an Object. In the same way that a word or thought is not an object, they are not conditions. Contingencies also don't function based on what other creatures are doing or having done to them, only what is happening 'to' the subject.
    How do ya figure? It's not me saying a word that is the condition here. It's me hearing the word, spoken by myself. The wizard is, at that point, under the condition of hearing certain words being spoken in a certain way by a certain person. How is that not a condition? Also, where are you getting the idea that the condition is necessarily occurring to the subject? Neither the spell nor the item indicates that.

  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Circumstance: "a condition, fact, or event accompanying, conditioning, or determining another."

    Is it really being argued that the player's character attempting to speak is not a fact or event.
    Last edited by olentu; 2013-10-23 at 10:47 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #1000

    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    How do ya figure? It's not me saying a word that is the condition here. It's me hearing the word, spoken by myself. The wizard is, at that point, under the condition of hearing certain words being spoken in a certain way by a certain person. How is that not a condition? Also, where are you getting the idea that the condition is necessarily occurring to the subject? Neither the spell nor the item indicates that.
    Conditions are actually defined in D&D. Check chapter eight of the DMG.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Conditions are actually defined in D&D. Check chapter eight of the DMG.
    "Being underwater" or "Falling" are not D&D Conditions, but they are things you recognize as capable of triggering a Contingency. I'm sure I'm going to regret the question, but what makes those allowable and speaking a word not? (..you're going to say 'because the book said so in the example', aren't you, and never recognize that those examples are not an all-inclusive list of 'things that can trigger Contingency.')

  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Conditions are actually defined in D&D. Check chapter eight of the DMG.
    Ah, but you just said "A condition is a set of circumstances." and thus are clearly not using the D&D definition of the term.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Conditions are actually defined in D&D. Check chapter eight of the DMG.
    Where there are conditions defined? It just says that that is a list of adverse conditions that can effect a character. It never really indicates that a condition is defined as a thing on that list. Moreover, the section on crafting contingent spells explicitly indicates conditions that don't come from that list.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I didn't ignore your point. I mentioned that the Wall of Fire spell doesn't even mention subjects potentially catching on fire even though it describes damage and other things for walking through said Wall of Fire. Burning Hands on the other hand is explicit in saying that if flammable objects are hit, they catch fire. The DMG description of Heat Dangers indicates that Wall of Fire will make those who walk through it catch on fire unless they pass the Reflex save. Those are two substantially different mechanics at work.

    Let's resummarize shall we?

    Burning Hands: Says flammable things catch fire.
    Wall of Fire: Says nothing about things catching fire.

    Heat Danger: Says what happens if something is on fire, and indicates if a subject might catch fire...and that's the part that Burning hands changes, the if.
    I addressed every single one of those points already, the first time out, in more detail and with more precision, so I'm not going to repeat myself. Suffice to say that you are oversimplifying and neglecting important nuances that are pretty clear in the text.
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  15. - Top - End - #1005

    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Where there are conditions defined? It just says that that is a list of adverse conditions that can effect a character. It never really indicates that a condition is defined as a thing on that list. Moreover, the section on crafting contingent spells explicitly indicates conditions that don't come from that list.
    In the DMG?

    Page 300 has the Condition Summary. Given the text of the spell, I'd be inclined to rule that any of those things (assuming the character can still act) would qualify.

    There are ingrained limits however. If it gets too complicated the spell says it will likely fail (i.e. ask your DM).

    For example, if you said anytime I get wet, cast spell 'x', might trigger if you break into a sweat (or just fail outright).

    There's also no evidence of active conditions, they are all reactive. (i.e. Something happens 'to' the subject, and then spell occurs).

    If you can quote an active (even more leeway here than the verbal/thought) condition in the rules as written, I will concede those would be logical extensions. However, I do not see that, so I remain in the position that the conditions are in response to things.

    edit:

    TuggyNE: You did not address it adequately.

    It's not correct that burning hands states that there is no save to prevent items from burning — rather it does not specify that there is a save. Nor does it need to;
    Burning hands states that the objects catch on fire. That means there is no save. If there was a save, it would say that items may catch on fire unless a reflex save is made.
    Last edited by Pickford; 2013-10-24 at 11:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    In the DMG?

    Page 300 has the Condition Summary. Given the text of the spell, I'd be inclined to rule that any of those things (assuming the character can still act) would qualify.

    There are ingrained limits however. If it gets too complicated the spell says it will likely fail (i.e. ask your DM).

    For example, if you said anytime I get wet, cast spell 'x', might trigger if you break into a sweat (or just fail outright).

    There's also no evidence of active conditions, they are all reactive. (i.e. Something happens 'to' the subject, and then spell occurs).

    If you can quote an active (even more leeway here than the verbal/thought) condition in the rules as written, I will concede those would be logical extensions. However, I do not see that, so I remain in the position that the conditions are in response to things.
    Ah, but you said "A condition is a set of circumstances." and thus are clearly not using the D&D definition of the term.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    Ah, but you said "A condition is a set of circumstances." and thus are clearly not using the D&D definition of the term.
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    In the DMG?

    Page 300 has the Condition Summary. Given the text of the spell, I'd be inclined to rule that any of those things (assuming the character can still act) would qualify.

    There are ingrained limits however. If it gets too complicated the spell says it will likely fail (i.e. ask your DM).

    For example, if you said anytime I get wet, cast spell 'x', might trigger if you break into a sweat (or just fail outright).

    There's also no evidence of active conditions, they are all reactive. (i.e. Something happens 'to' the subject, and then spell occurs).

    If you can quote an active (even more leeway here than the verbal/thought) condition in the rules as written, I will concede those would be logical extensions. However, I do not see that, so I remain in the position that the conditions are in response to things.
    I knew that you were referring to that section. What I didn't know, and what you didn't show, is where that section actually defines a condition as being within those limits. As is, I don't think that condition means what you think it means. I'm pretty sure that it's being used in the form of a conditional. In other words, if p, then q. That definition fits far better in this context. As is, hearing a certain word that's said in a certain way isn't active. It's absolutely something that is happening to the subject.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?
    Circumstance: "a condition, fact, or event accompanying, conditioning, or determining another."

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?
    Are you still trying to be taken seriously? That's literally what it means to have what you say matter.
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?
    Thread in a nutshell right here

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Thanks, Pickford. You've brightened my day
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    TuggyNE: You did not address it adequately.

    Burning hands states that the objects catch on fire. That means there is no save. If there was a save, it would say that items may catch on fire unless a reflex save is made.
    It literally does not mention saves one way or another.

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially in a case where there's a clear general rule and a clear allusion to that general rule, with no specific exception provided.

    If they wanted it to force all objects and creatures in the area to catch fire with no save (undeniably an unusually powerful effect at first level), there's a perfectly straightforward way to say that, and that straightforward way is "Flammable items and creatures burn with no save if the flames touch them." Curiously, that's not what the text says.
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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    Are you still trying to be taken seriously? That's literally what it means to have what you say matter.
    Rephrased: "Why does my word choice matter?"

    TuggyNE, it does say the flammable items are set on fire. How does one get more definitive?

    By second guessing in this instance, one must also second guess all other instances where a saving throw is conceivable, but not mentioned in the spell. (A slippery slope argument)


    edit: TuggyNE, the rule from catching on fire in the DMG is excluded from covering Burning Hands.

    Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires
    Burning Hands is instantaneous AND sets items on fire.
    Last edited by Pickford; 2013-10-25 at 11:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Rephrased: "Why does my word choice matter?"
    It probably doesn't, but that was a pretty amusing thing you said, ya gotta admit. As is, I think we're at the point in that argument where you say stuff. Ultimately, there is no actual defined limitation on what a "condition" is, which limits your ability to make a solid argument on that basis.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Rephrased: "Why does my word choice matter?"
    If your word choice did not matter, you would not have had to rephrase your statement.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Rephrased: "Why does my word choice matter?"
    Because you are speaking in what I must assume is an attempt to convey information.

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    Because you are speaking in what I must assume is an attempt to convey information.
    Sorry, I assumed you also spoke English and were capable of comprehending synonyms. If this is incorrect, I will make every effort to be more precise, but I think it's only fair you be lenient with me if you don't understand what I've said.

    Fair deal?

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    Default Re: Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?

    Basically Pickford, while you may understand clearly what you were trying to communicate, proper word choice is what lets you do so clearly so that other people can understand it. At the extreme end, if word choice doesn't matter, you should be able to understand "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" as easily as "New York bison whom other New York bison bully, themselves bully New York bison" (Buffalo is a city in New York)
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