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    Default Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Previous editions are Firechanter's, Nedz's, and TuggyNE's. Oh, and the Handbook/Index, if you're into that sort of thing.


    Thread number 4 of things Wizard's could have made work if they worded their rules better/ actually paid attention to splats other than they were writing, GO!
    Last edited by Svata; 2013-09-22 at 02:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Tenebrous Apostate requires Turn Undead to get in. It's a Cleric/Binder theurge class. Technically, you don't need the divine side, because Tenebrous grants Turn Undead, and that's the only requirement that comes from Cleric. This isn't even a cross-splatbook problem, it's just plain not paying attention. Oh, and there's no disqualification issue if your pact with Tenebrous ends, because the first level grantd you an eternal pact to Tenebrous.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Tenebrous Apostate requires Turn Undead to get in. It's a Cleric/Binder theurge class. Technically, you don't need the divine side, because Tenebrous grants Turn Undead, and that's the only requirement that comes from Cleric. This isn't even a cross-splatbook problem, it's just plain not paying attention. Oh, and there's no disqualification issue if your pact with Tenebrous ends, because the first level grantd you an eternal pact to Tenebrous.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Though of course if you use your rebuke undead granted by Tenebrous, some might say you cease to qualify for 5 rounds. Also, using Tenebrous' rebuke would cause problems when you tried to use destroy/empower undead. It requires 2 rebuke attempts, which it's very unclear if Tenebrous' rebuke lets you supply at once. If not, then that's an ability you can't use. If so, then that means you can use Tenebrous' rebuke with divine metamagic and spend an arbitrarily high number of turn attempts to pump a spell up with all sorts of things.

    The Disease entry in the DMG is wrong about mummy rot on two counts. It lists the incubation period as 1 day and the damage as 1d6 Con instead of the 1 minute and 1d6 Con and Cha that are the true properties.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    The Disease entry in the DMG is wrong about mummy rot on two counts. It lists the incubation period as 1 day and the damage as 1d6 Con instead of the 1 minute and 1d6 Con and Cha that are the true properties.
    Clearly natural mummy rot is less dangerous than that spread by mummies.
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    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Those complications are just a symptom of the dysfunction. You shouldn't be able to accidentally the prestige class in the first place.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Not sure, if this was mentioned before but... shadow creatures from shadow conjuration are mentioned to do only 1/5th damage then it says any special abilities that do anything other than lethal damage has a 1/5th chance to work. This means non-lethal damage and ability damage do 1/5th damage and have an 80% chance of not working. It's also possible (probably) for disbelieving to increase the conjuration's defence if it's dexterity is in the negative modifier range

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    Though of course if you use your rebuke undead granted by Tenebrous, some might say you cease to qualify for 5 rounds...
    I have a question for those people, Do clerics cease to qualify for certain prestige classes for the rest of the day when they run out of turn/rebuke attempts?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Sort of got lost in the mishmash last thread, but:

    You can fight with two weapons with no penalties without the TWF feat. You only take the penalties for TWFing when you gain extra attacks from wielding two weapons. BUT you still take penalties for wielding a weapon in your off-hand, despite handedness not being a thing.

    Relevant ancient thread.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoPhoenix0 View Post
    I have a question for those people, Do clerics cease to qualify for certain prestige classes for the rest of the day when they run out of turn/rebuke attempts?

    Don't dig yourself into the morass that is gaining and losing pre-reqs for prestige classes. It never makes sense except in the absolute simplest cases, like losing an alignment. It's always wierd, and people like to bring it up cause it seems strange and attractively odd.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roguenewb View Post
    Don't dig yourself into the morass that is gaining and losing pre-reqs for prestige classes. It never makes sense except in the absolute simplest cases, like losing an alignment. It's always wierd, and people like to bring it up cause it seems strange and attractively odd.
    Having zero uses of an ability is not the same thing as not having an ability. You can still use Turn Undead when you are out of daily uses: you just need to rest for a while before you can. Not having the ability, however: no amount of rest will allow you to recover the ability.

    Mathematically, it's the difference between 0 and .

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Having zero uses of an ability is not the same thing as not having an ability. You can still use Turn Undead when you are out of daily uses: you just need to rest for a while before you can. Not having the ability, however: no amount of rest will allow you to recover the ability.

    Mathematically, it's the difference between 0 and .
    Then Tenebrous binders are OK because they still have the ability they just aren't allowed to use it for 5 rounds.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Sort of got lost in the mishmash last thread, but:

    You can fight with two weapons with no penalties without the TWF feat. You only take the penalties for TWFing when you gain extra attacks from wielding two weapons. BUT you still take penalties for wielding a weapon in your off-hand, despite handedness not being a thing.

    Relevant ancient thread.
    How/When do you designate which hand is your off hand ?

    Can you re-designate this just prior to each attack ?
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    How/When do you designate which hand is your off hand ?

    Can you re-designate this just prior to each attack ?
    According to the RotG games articles, you can redesignate your handedness once per round.

    Off Hand, Off-Hand Weapon: When attacking with two weapons, the character must designate one of his hands as his off hand; the weapon held in that hand is treated as his off-hand weapon. The game rules dont really care about whether youre right-handed or left-handed, and its even OK to change your off hand designation from one round to the next.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Clearly natural mummy rot is less dangerous than that spread by mummies.
    Made even better by the fact that mummies are the only way to get mummy rot.

    EDIT: Speaking of disease bearing undead, the plague blight forces you to make a save or be nauseated, with no duration.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2013-09-23 at 12:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    According to the RotG games articles, you can redesignate your handedness once per round.
    Which is very good to remember, when wielding a whip-dagger in one hand and a melee weapon in the other. Armor spikes are just a pain.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    According to the RotG games articles, you can redesignate your handedness once per round.
    Hilarious, but that's not rules though is it ?
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Hilarious, but that's not rules though is it ?
    Show me where there's rules in the SRD about designating your handedness.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Show me where there's rules in the SRD about designating your handedness.
    There isn't we both know this.

    There is just the off hand penalty under the TWF rules.

    But you're missing my point:
    Are the RotG articles RAW ?
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    We can't pick and choose on articles. Either WotC-site articles aren't RAW (which means no footsteps of the divine, psychic rogue, psychic assassin, Zceryll, etc.), or they are (and we use RotG articles).

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Sure we can. Articles which provide new content are the rules for that content. The Rules of the Game articles, though, are just interpretations of the existing rules, and are no more authoritative than (and usually less reliable than) the Simple Q&A thread here.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Those articles, though, are actual RAI. I think that's very valuable.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    I think there may be a dysfunction with some classes that present abilities as SLAs when they don't specify which spell they mimic. The problem is, I can't tell you what the DC is to cast them defensively. I'm not sure there's a rule for it. It could just be my searching has failed me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    I think there may be a dysfunction with some classes that present abilities as SLAs when they don't specify which spell they mimic. The problem is, I can't tell you what the DC is to cast them defensively. I'm not sure there's a rule for it. It could just be my searching has failed me.
    I know you posted this in the Simple RAW Q/A thread, do you have an example of this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Thrall of Orcus' death touch, which is actually what brought this up. I took the fact that nobody answered it to mean that there wasn't one, but it could be tucked away somewhere.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2013-09-24 at 01:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    I think there may be a dysfunction with some classes that present abilities as SLAs when they don't specify which spell they mimic. The problem is, I can't tell you what the DC is to cast them defensively. I'm not sure there's a rule for it. It could just be my searching has failed me.
    There's a general rule when that happens, it starts with wizard/sorcerer, but I can't remember where it is, or what the order is.

    EDIT: Here it is
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
    EDIT 2: My interwebz searches says that that isn't a real spell, so disregard.
    EDIT 3: According to Skip Williams in his article All About Spell-like Abilities you find a spell similar to the effect and use that for the level.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2013-09-24 at 02:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    I may be a bit premature in posting this here, but someone asked an interesting question about spellguard rings from Complete Mage. The rings work as a pair, the caster wears one and someone else wears another. It is a free action for the caster to activate it. The bearer of the other ring is immune to spells the caster casts for the next round. the caster can activate the rings three times per day.

    The weird part comes in when the other guy is immune to spells like solid fog or grease. This is probably best turned into infinite spell resistance, like what golems have. Immunity to spells just gets weird.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoPhoenix0 View Post
    I may be a bit premature in posting this here, but someone asked an interesting question about spellguard rings from Complete Mage. The rings work as a pair, the caster wears one and someone else wears another. It is a free action for the caster to activate it. The bearer of the other ring is immune to spells the caster casts for the next round. the caster can activate the rings three times per day.

    The weird part comes in when the other guy is immune to spells like solid fog or grease. This is probably best turned into infinite spell resistance, like what golems have. Immunity to spells just gets weird.
    Already covered by the definition of spell immunity; essentially, you can't become immune to SR:no spells. SRD quote:
    Spell Immunity
    A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    There's a general rule when that happens, it starts with wizard/sorcerer, but I can't remember where it is, or what the order is.

    EDIT: Here it is

    EDIT 2: My interwebz searches says that that isn't a real spell, so disregard.
    EDIT 3: According to Skip Williams in his article All About Spell-like Abilities you find a spell similar to the effect and use that for the level.
    That article is also in direct contradiction of RAW. He uses the Paladin's special mount as an example, saying it's basically the 1st level spell mount. First of all, this is very much wrong, a paladin's mount is much stronger, probably closer to Phantom Steed. Second of all, the Paladin's mount spell-like actually has a defined spell level :

    "This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladins level."

    Not to say what the article is saying is wrong, it's good advice, that implementation was just bad. I found this out while trying to figure out what level to treat the Spell-like abilities of an Acolyte of the Ego.
    Last edited by Harrow; 2013-09-25 at 12:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by A_S View Post
    Already covered by the definition of spell immunity; essentially, you can't become immune to SR:no spells. SRD quote:
    Yeah that is how it should work, but it doesn't say it confers spell immunity. It says:
    When the rings are activated, the wearer of the bronze ring becomes immune to any spell cast by the wearer of the gold ring, as long as that spell is cast within 1 round.
    The spell immunity special ability is never referenced. Good reference for a good houserule though.

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