Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[Harrow]

Doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet, but soulmeld limitations are a bit... off.

Let's start with the Meldshaping classes. They all have a table that gives a number for both soulmelds shaped per day and maximum soulmelds shaped at any time. However, in the description of this, it doesn't say it's a maximum for soulmelds shaped from any specific class levels, it's just a global maximum. Let's say you're a 10th level Incarnate. You can have 6 soulmelds shaped at once. But then you take a level of Totemist. You can now only shape a total of 2 soulmelds from both classes, because your Incarnate soulmelds count against your Totemist limit.

This also means the Shape Soulmeld feat can't be used to shape extra soulmelds. This, in itself, is reasonable, until you realize that non-meldshapers don't have a limit on how many melds they can have shaped at once. A 6th level human with some Human Paragon could shape 5 soulmelds at the same time. But if they took Soulborn at level 7, they can't shape any, because a Soulborn is limited to 0 soulmelds at level 1. Not 0 Soulborn soulmelds, no, that would make too much sense, just 0 soulmelds.

[Karnith]

Let's start with the Meldshaping classes. They all have a table that gives a number for both soulmelds shaped per day and maximum soulmelds shaped at any time. However, in the description of this, it doesn't say it's a maximum for soulmelds shaped from any specific class levels, it's just a global maximum. Let's say you're a 10th level Incarnate. You can have 6 soulmelds shaped at once. But then you take a level of Totemist. You can now only shape a total of 2 soulmelds from both classes, because your Incarnate soulmelds count against your Totemist limit.

Meldshaping abilities from different classes explicitly remain completely separate, per the rules for multiclass meldshapers (Magic of Incarnum, p. 20).

[NeoPhoenix0]

Also, the shape soulmeld feat has nothing to do with your shaping class. It uses it's own specific rules. Of course you can still bind it to your available chakras and invest essentia into it.

[Coidzor]

Has the whole "what happens to an Animal if its intelligence score becomes 3 or greater?" bit of fogginess been brought up yet/before? I looked through the handbook thread, but couldn't figure out where it'd even fit in.

Interesting fact, an animal companion gaining intelligence does not automatically force it to stop being an animal companion. Awakening it does, but simply wishing it to have a higher int only raises its int up.

The wish would cost a bit on the hired caster chart, but by RAW it should work (as long as you can keep your animal good.)

Why isn't this in the dysfunctional rules thread ?

[Curmudgeon]

Interesting fact, an animal companion gaining intelligence does not automatically force it to stop being an animal companion. Awakening it does, but simply wishing it to have a higher int only raises its int up.

That stops it from being an Animal immediately:

Animal Type
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

Note the "be", as opposed to "start as".

The wish would cost a bit on the hired caster chart, but by RAW it should work (as long as you can keep your animal good.)

No, I don't think the RAW works that way.

A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table.

If it's not an Animal, it's definitely not "typical for its kind except as noted below", and its power isn't simply as specified on the table.

This doesn't say what type it becomes, so that's still a dysfunction. But after an Animal gets an INT above 2, it no longer qualifies as either an Animal or an Animal Companion.

So here's an interesting consequence: you can wipe out all of a Druid's Animal Companion class features by hitting the Companion with Fox's Cunning.

[Sith_Happens]

Has the whole "what happens to an Animal if its intelligence score becomes 3 or greater?" bit of fogginess been brought up yet/before? I looked through the handbook thread, but couldn't figure out where it'd even fit in.

Just to be clear, the dysfunction actually comes from this part:

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

So if you Wish an animal's Intelligence up or give it a Headband, it loses the Animal Type... without gaining a new type in its place.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Coidzor]

Just to be clear, the dysfunction actually comes from this part:

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

So if you Wish an animal's Intelligence up or give it a Headband, it loses the Animal Type... without gaining a new type in its place.

Indeed, I was mostly quoting that one as part of the post by nedz quoting it.

Though the bit where an Animal Companion can make itself cease to be an Animal Companion via its bonus HD giving it an ability score increase that can be applied to Intelligence or lose Animal Companion benefits by being hit by Fox's Cunning or having an item of +int put on it seems like an inter-related rules dysfunction, or, maybe a secondary effect of it?

...It loses the bonus HD once it stops being an animal companion, does that mean it also loses the increase to its intelligence ability score and then becomes an animal again?

[nedz]

So here's an interesting consequence: you can wipe out all of a Druid's Animal Companion class features by hitting the Companion with Fox's Cunning.

Bear: *Buffed* "I'm too smart for this companion business, bye"

[georgie_leech]

Bear: *Buffed* "I'm too smart for this companion business, bye"

Related.

+1 White Text of Posting

[NeoPhoenix0]

So here's an interesting consequence: you can wipe out all of a Druid's Animal Companion class features by hitting the Companion with Fox's Cunning.

But it doesn't stop an Elf Ranger's elven hound companion.

Does an animal companion stop being an animal companion if it gets polymorphed?

[Snowbluff]

So here's an interesting consequence: you can wipe out all of a Druid's Animal Companion class features by hitting the Companion with Fox's Cunning.

o.0

Yep. That's a pretty good way of handling it.

Sidenote: VoP bonus feats can be used to protect your AnC from this, ironically.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Sidenote: VoP bonus feats can be used to protect your AnC from this, ironically.

Ok, could you explain that one too me. I'm coming up blank here.

[Curmudgeon]

But it doesn't stop an Elf Ranger's elven hound companion.

Elven Hound Companion (Ex): A 4th-level elf ranger can select an elven hound (see page 189) as his animal companion, even though the creature is a magical beast.

Specific exceptions are golden.

Does an animal companion stop being an animal companion if it gets polymorphed?

If it stops being an Animal, yes it does. I guess an Elven Hound Companion could remain if it were Polymorphed into an Animal form, though; that Companion is good for two types.

[Snowbluff]

Ok, could you explain that one too me. I'm coming up blank here.

VoP gets bonus exalted feats.
Exalted Companion is an [Exalted] feat that lets you use a magical beast (Like a celestial fleshraker), which is immune to the given strategy.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Ok, new anti animal companion strategy. Polymorph them into forms you can use to fight the druid or ranger with.

[Andezzar]

Ok, new anti animal companion strategy. Polymorph them into forms you can use to fight the druid or ranger with.

Polymorph gives you no form of control over the polymorphed creature. So even when the creature leaves the druid's service it does not work for you.

[Coidzor]

Polymorph gives you no form of control over the polymorphed creature. So even when the creature leaves the druid's service it does not work for you.

And unless the Druid was really treating it poorly, it's still going to be fairly well-disposed even if the magical bond is broken.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Polymorph gives you no form of control over the polymorphed creature. So even when the creature leaves the druid's service it does not work for you.

Depends on the type of polymorph used. POA it into a greatsword or probably something more useful to you.

[georgie_leech]

If you're at PAO levels, somehow I don't think 2d6+STR is going to be all that impressive

[NeoPhoenix0]

If you're at PAO levels, somehow I don't think 2d6+STR is going to be all that impressive

I don't know, a celestial dire tiger can be pretty nasty. Then there is the celestial horrid tiger to consider.

[Andezzar]

If you're at PAO levels, somehow I don't think 2d6+STR is going to be all that impressive

Thze point isn't that you get 2d6+1.5*STR, the point is that the druid does no longer have an animal companion.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Oh, did you mean the greatsword? That's why I said probably something more useful. Think of an inanimate object that would be useful in a fight against a druid.

[Andezzar]

The PAOed Animal Companion is under no obligation to attack its former master.

Possible dysfunction of PAO:


Polymorph any object states:

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine.

What's great intrinsic value? While the examples only include precious metals, stones and trade good, doesn't anything with a cost listed in any of the books have intrinsic value? How much gp/lb or gp/item is considered great?

Wouldn't that mean that you cannot pao anything into an object, depending on where the minimum for greatness is? Additionally do ladders (which get cut up into 10 ft poles) have great intrinsic value?

Thirdly don't most (humanoid) races have a published value as slaves....

Forget it. the text only talks about materials, not objects in general.

[One Step Two]

If you have access to PaO, and want to screw over a druid, dispelling his armour to suppress the magic for 1d4 rounds, followed up by PaO and turning it into a breastplate turns off all his abilities for 24 hours.

[Chambers]

If you have access to PaO, and want to screw over a druid, dispelling his armour to suppress the magic for 1d4 rounds, followed up by PaO and turning it into a breastplate turns off all his abilities for 24 hours.

Oh, that's just mean. Nice.

[NeoPhoenix0]

If you have access to PaO, and want to screw over a druid, dispelling his armour to suppress the magic for 1d4 rounds, followed up by PaO and turning it into a breastplate turns off all his abilities for 24 hours.

I thought about that, but the spell is very unlikely to work. The armor is attended by the druid so it gets his good fortitude save which is probably modified by a great constitution from his wild shape.

It's more likely to succeed on an animal companion because they have less HD. Still wouldn't do it to certain animals because of their huge constitution scores. You probably want irresistible spell to up the DC on the POA.

Also, you can get access to POA pretty early. In this case, if you are a wizard hire a wizard to cast it so you can make a scroll. It only costs 1360 gp so it isn't in the generally not available category. Convincing your DM that it should be available is another matter.

[Dimers]

I'd like to note a dysfunction I don't see listed in the Handbook.

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to a swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round ...

Doesn't say the swarm is immune to its own effect, if it's a living creature vulnerable to its damage, which is certainly possible for swarms of Tiny creatures. Fine and Diminutive swarms are immune to "weapon" damage, which I believe would exempt them from this problem.

[Talderas]

I'd like to note a dysfunction I don't see listed in the Handbook.



Doesn't say the swarm is immune to its own effect, if it's a living creature vulnerable to its damage, which is certainly possible for swarms of Tiny creatures. Fine and Diminutive swarms are immune to "weapon" damage, which I believe would exempt them from this problem.

It does specify vulnerable to the damage. Normally you cannot attack yourself and thus are not vulnerable to it. Now if you can find a way to make a swarm attack itself then it becomes vulnerable to itself and will nauseate itself. Of course this will be difficult as the most common type of swarm, vermin, is mindless and thus not susceptible to mind control.

[Andezzar]

Nausea is a mind-affecting ability?

[Fax Celestis]

Sure ain't.

Nauseated
Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.