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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    ...according to...?
    RAI, one supposes.

    RACSD would certainly suggest that, and it doesn't seem too difficult to write it up. Hmm.

    Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round. If you have more than one mode of movement, the maximum speed is that for the mode used to begin jumping, usually land or swim speed.

    Sadly, that's not what RAW says, so oh well!
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    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    I guess an argument could be made that since it says your maximum movement for the round, not a round, it already uses whatever movement speed applies during that particular round. What I find to be far more interesting is the problem with trying to use multiple movement types as part of the same move action. I mean, if I jump into the water when I've still got plenty of movement left in the round according to my land speed, but I have a much lower swim speed, what happens? I'm pretty sure the rules just don't say anything about it, and this isn't a gap easily filled by common sense.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    RAI, one supposes.

    RACSD would certainly suggest that, and it doesn't seem too difficult to write it up. Hmm.

    Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round. If you have more than one mode of movement, the maximum speed is that for the mode used to begin jumping, usually land or swim speed.

    Sadly, that's not what RAW says, so oh well!
    So you are saying that a creature flapping its wings while jumping has no effect? That does not fall under RACSD IMHO. Example:
    After using its standard action a creature without wings and 30ft speed moves 20 ft and jumps 20 ft. It only arrives in the next round after using another move action.

    Again after using its standard action a creature with wings (60 ft fly speed) and 30ft speed moves 20 ft and jumps 20 ft. This creature is supposed to move in the same way as the creature above without aid from its wings?

    How about creatures with wingless flight?
    Last edited by Andezzar; 2013-11-06 at 02:19 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andezzar View Post
    So you are saying that a creature flapping its wings while jumping has no effect?
    No indeed, but if you're flying, you're no longer jumping: you fall differently, no longer follow any standard trajectory, and are not limited by Jump check results in height ascended or distance covered. However, you are limited by flight maneuverability in ways that may be more restrictive than jumping.

    Again after using its standard action a creature with wings (60 ft fly speed) and 30ft speed moves 20 ft and jumps 20 ft. This creature is supposed to move in the same way as the creature above without aid from its wings?
    I would preferably model this as simply switching from land movement to flight, with no Jump check at all. What difference would it make, after all? When flying, you touch down where and when you wish to. (The resolution of the rules is too coarse to really cover things like jumping off into flight as anything more than "OK, you start flying".)

    How about creatures with wingless flight?
    The same as winged creatures, but more so; it's obvious that running starts and leaping simply doesn't make any difference to their flight effectiveness at all, and the Jump is entirely unrelated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    The thing is some wings grant a bonus to jump checks (raptoran, dragonborn with wing aspect, dragon wings feat). With most options it is possible to get a higher fly speed than your land speed. So to actually use the jump bonus you would most likely need to waste one move action due to hang time, by your interpretation.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andezzar View Post
    The thing is some wings grant a bonus to jump checks (raptoran, dragonborn with wing aspect, dragon wings feat). With most options it is possible to get a higher fly speed than your land speed. So to actually use the jump bonus you would most likely need to waste one move action due to hang time, by your interpretation.
    No, in that case you just don't keep flying, and don't use your fly speed at all; the wings merely empower the Jump check's takeoff, but it otherwise operates the same way as normal, including limitation by move speed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Noticed something due to a discussion on multiclass XP penalties linking back to an older thread.

    Dragon Devotee (and, IIRC, other PrCs) can grant Sorcerer spellcasting without having any levels in sorcerer. Or regular old Dragons have racial sorcerer spellcasting ability after a certain point in their development.

    Battle Sorcerer is a variant class from Unearthed Arcana which decreases spells known and spells per day.

    So, yeah, what happens when someone with sorcerer spellcasting that has no levels in Sorcerer takes a level in Battle Sorcerer?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but there's an isssue with determining the offhand damage for double weapons.

    The rules are quite clear that when wielding a double weapon, you can use the TWF rules for an extra attack. For the purposes of calculating attack bonuses, you treat the primary end of the weapon as a one-handed weapon, and the other offhand end is a light weapon. But the rules are very explicit that this is only for calculating attack penalties.

    For the purposes of damage, you are wielding a double weapon with both hands. According to PHB p. 134, you get x1.5 Str bonus on your primary attack. You are also wielding the other offhand end of the weapon with both hands. But there's a contradiction in the rules:

    "Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus.
    Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus."

    Your non-primary end is both a two-handed attack and an offhand attack... so which damage bonus do you get, x1.5 Str or x0.5 Str?

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but there's an isssue with determining the offhand damage for double weapons.
    Is there?

    Double Weapons
    Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

    The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
    Emphasis mine. "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons just as though the character were wielding a one-handed and a light weapon." You're being distracted by the interjection in the middle of the sentence which has no relevance as to how the weapon is wielded for the purpose of determining strength modifier to damage. Additionally, the only way to use a double weapon as a two handed weapon is to only attack with one end while using both hands.
    Last edited by Talderas; 2013-11-06 at 03:30 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Talderas View Post
    Emphasis mine. "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons just as though the character were wielding a one-handed and a light weapon." Additionally, the only way to use a double weapon as a two handed weapon is to only attack with one end while using both hands.
    The problem is the text only discusses one-handed and light weapon in regards to calculating attack penalties. It doesn't discuss calculating damage, which is detailed on page 134 of the PHB.

    Actually, the strongest argument for treating damage as one-handed and light comes from the text of the Power Attack feat, PHB p. 98:

    "Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon."

    This is the only place in the Core rules where the text makes a general statement about how you treat double weapons outside the immediate context of calculating attack penalties.

    The Rules Compendium might clarify this a bit:

    "A creater can fight using both ends of a double weapon as if using two weapons, incurring all the normal penalties associated with two-weapon fi ghting while wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."

    However, "penalties" used here again only refers to calculating attack penalties. I'm not sure if dropping the Str modifier down to x0.5 really counts as a "penalty". Yes, it's worse than x1.5 or x1.0, but you're changing a ratio rather than subtracting a specific modifier expressed as a whole number.

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Blackguard's fiendish servant gets SR equaling class level +5 when the blackguard is at character level 19. The fiendish servant does have the fiendish template, so it has SR of HD +5. If the blackguard has 8 or fewer levels in blackguard, the servant gets more SR from being fiendish than it does from the blackguard. Even if he does finish, the horse will always have more SR.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    3 Mysteries have conflicting information (all fixed by Ari in the Shadowcaster fixes ENWorld thread)

    Truth Revealed: For revealing other information about the creatures studied via the effect, the text mentions minutes but the table mentions rounds. Text triumphs table, but Ari suggests the opposite.

    Warp Spell: Has a Will save entry but uses the counterspell action which doesn't force a save. Ari's fix: Saving Throw: None

    Greater Life Fades: Range: Long. Target: one living creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius spread
    Opening sentence: "Your touch deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) and causes the subject to become exhausted for 1 round per caster level."
    Last edited by peacenlove; 2013-11-11 at 06:18 PM.

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  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnith View Post
    Actually, pre-errata Wild Shape functioned like Polymorph.Also, I'm 90% sure I've pointed this out before
    My commas were a little confusing, I guess. I was referring to 3.5 wild shape. I was unaware that it was keyed off polymorph this long into the game.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    My commas were a little confusing, I guess. I was referring to 3.5 wild shape. I was unaware that it was keyed off polymorph this long into the game.
    I forget when exactly Wild Shape got errata'd to stop functioning like Polymorph, but it was some time late in 3.5's life (and this article leads me to believe it was early in 2006). My 2003 Player's Handbook certainly has the old "this ability functions like polymorph" line, and I am quite sure that the big Polymorph changes came after Libris Mortis (which was released in 2004).

    So Corrupted Wild Shape was at least functional at one point.
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-11-11 at 08:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Nar Demonbinder's inimical casting allows you to cast spells like magic circle against good as any of the other magic circle spells. This also allows you to replace the effect of blasphemy with that of the other alignment equivalents. Unfortunately, because you are in the center of these effects, you can only use two of the four as according to your alignment, possibly as few as none.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    or none if you are true neutral. nar demonbinders also do not have an alignment req (which isn't dysfunctional, but still is sort of weird)
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    I'm collating data that was not, originally, my own. You see, I just started reading Captnq's Weapon Handbook and noticed some amusing messages in the introductory rant:

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon Handbook Readme
    And screw WotC for such poorly defined terms as well. Do you know that TECHNICALLY, if a Monk misses on ANY roll to hit while performing a flurry of blows it stops being a flurry of blows? I don't even know what that MEANS! Damn WotC and their strangely worded definitions for Unarmed Attacks and Unarmed Strikes.
    I was confused until I read gauntlets.pdf:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet v1.03
    Unarmed Attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.
    Unarmed Strike: A successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking
    without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal non-
    lethal damage.
    And now we look back at Flurry of Blows:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).
    I'm now currently trying to track down the definition of unarmed strike as "an unarmed attack that hits". As far as I can tell, it's used mostly interchangeably with unarmed attacks (like here), with the exception that unarmed attacks are never referred to as dealing damage - "strike" was always paired any time dice were mentioned. However, saying that a greatsword deals 2D6 damage doesn't mean a greatsword always hits, so I don't think it's significant.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I was confused until I read gauntlets.pdf
    What is Gauntlets, v1.03 or otherwise?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Okay, I got two new spell related ones for you, if they have already been mentioned I apologize.

    Firstly, we have Seed of Undeath from Complete Mage. This spell will turn the affected creature into a Zombie automatically under your command when the creature dies before the spell expires. Where it's Dysfunction begins is the fact that Create Undead, is an [Evil] spell, and Seed of Undeath is not, so a Good Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer can still make undead minions too!

    Secondly from the Spell Compendium, we have the Light of Lunia, and it's more powerful variants.
    The spell has a Range of Medium, but its Target and Effect is: You and Upto two rays. The spell description says that when the spell is discharged as a ray, that they have a fixed range of only 30 feet. A spell you can cast on yourself from up to 100ft +10ft/Level away seems odd, no?
    Last edited by One Step Two; 2013-11-12 at 07:18 PM.
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    Post Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    This might not be a dysfunction but just common sense saying wth,
    But a thri-keen or any appropriately armed creature can wield a tower shield in every arm.
    This gets to be goofy if you gorrilalons(?) blessing them so that they can hold two more.
    How can six tower shields fit into a 5ft square?

    Edit: forgot how to spell the spells name, and AFB.
    Last edited by Menzath; 2013-11-12 at 07:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Why would you wield more than one Tower Shield? You only get one shield bonus and for concealment you only need to hide behind one shield.

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    Post Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    well you can use one for cover, one for AC, and multi-weapon fight with the rest

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    well you can use one for cover, one for AC, and multi-weapon fight with the rest
    Except for taking cover using up an action of its own, so for that to work you'd need to be using the Multitasking feat.
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    Post Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    yeah stupid taking cover as an action, but there is enough action economy cheese as well as feats (one pointed out ty) that being able to use a tower shield as cover and attack with four more isn't the issue, just that HOW do you fit all of them and a character into a freakin 5ft square AND are allowed to wield them all. utter rules madness.
    I mean you have more matter in a space than there is space!

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    If you really want to cram things in to a 5' square, look in Complete Warrior at the Swarmfighting feat. It lets multiple creatures of small size stand and fight in the same 5' square, with no stated limits as to how many. Unfortunately, the same feat appears in Races of Faerun, and in RoF they specify that you can only fit 4 small creatures in a 5' square (and creatures one size category smaller than small count as half a creature for this).

    However, that brings up another dysfunction. The RoF Swarmfighting feat says that "Up to four creatures of Small size may occupy a 5-foot square (creatures one size category smaller count as half a creature)." Two issues: It doesn't state anything about creatures two or more size categories smaller (do they all count as full creatures? By RAW, yes), and second the prerequisites state that you must be "Size Small". Not "Size Small or smaller", just "Size Small". According to that, creatures smaller than small cannot get the feat, yet it specifically states how the rules work for creatures one size smaller than Small.
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    Post Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    hah a reduce person spell would make them loose the feat, how quaint. and also full of crazy shenanigans.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    hah a reduce person spell would make them loose the feat, how quaint. and also full of crazy shenanigans.
    Well 4 tiny creatures fit anyways, no need for a feat. Also, you only lose the benefit of the feat, not the feat itself.
    Last edited by Andezzar; 2013-11-12 at 10:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Double Weapons
    Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

    The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    The problem is the text only discusses one-handed and light weapon in regards to calculating attack penalties. It doesn't discuss calculating damage, which is detailed on page 134 of the PHB.
    You seem to be getting confused by the, albeit correct, strange English grammer. The commas in the first segment that I have bolded separate the middle from the rest of the sentance. It can be arranged in this fashion also:

    A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. He or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat.
    The second bolded segment shows that the 1.5x strength modifier only applies when the weapon is NOT used with TWF. Hope that clears this up.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

    Fax_Celestis:
    ...according to...?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are rules for this in Stormwrack.
    edit: Yes, on page 81

    p.s. Ksheep: The FAQ may not be RAW, but it is certainly official, which generally puts it in the quasi-useful zone that exists below errata, but above random stranger on the internets opinion. If doubt exists, you might as well rely on the FAQ until you can find acceptable proof in one of the books to follow.

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