Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[Ksheep]

It depends entirely on which speed you're using. If you have a swim speed, you use that (and no swim check is required), if you don't you have to make the check and the limit is 1/2 your land speed.

According to what? Nowhere does it state what speed to use, all it says is "Normal maximum speed".

[georgie_leech]

It depends entirely on which speed you're using. If you have a swim speed, you use that (and no swim check is required), if you don't you have to make the check and the limit is 1/2 your land speed.

I'm finding it difficult to continue believing you're actually arguing this in good faith, given that you're ignoring my point. The Dysfunction is that it doesn't say to use that speed to determine the maximum distance jumped in a round. The text you've quoted says you need a swim speed to jump out of water, not that you use that speed to determine maximum jump distance. It's probably what they meant, but it's not what the rules say. Much like Drown Healing is Dysfunctional because the it assumes you are at higher than 0 hp (whether or not your hp is actually higher than 0, it is set to 0), the Dysfunction is based on the Rules As Written, not the Rules As Obviously Meant To Be.

[Pickford]

I'm finding it difficult to continue believing you're actually arguing this in good faith, given that you're ignoring my point. The Dysfunction is that it doesn't say to use that speed to determine the maximum distance jumped in a round. The text you've quoted says you need a swim speed to jump out of water, not that you use that speed to determine maximum jump distance. It's probably what they meant, but it's not what the rules say. Much like Drown Healing is Dysfunctional because the it assumes you are at higher than 0 hp (whether or not your hp is actually higher than 0, it is set to 0), the Dysfunction is based on the Rules As Written, not the Rules As Obviously Meant To Be.

The maximum distance jumped is based on your jump check. The maximum distance in a round is based on your speed (if you run out of movement, you must continue the jump into the next round as a move action).

If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either this turn, or if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

How is that not clear as day?

[Andezzar]

Because the quoted rule does not specify which speed is used to determine the maximum distance per round.

[georgie_leech]

The maximum distance jumped is based on your jump check. The maximum distance in a round is based on your speed (if you run out of movement, you must continue the jump into the next round as a move action).



How is that not clear as day?

Which speed? The rules only ever say normal maximum movement, without defining that "normal maximum movement" is whichever speed is appropriate for the medium. There are additional rules saying that to make a jump check out of water, you need a Swim Speed. Though obvious as to what they meant, it doesn't say Swim Speed is used to determine the Maximum distance jumped out of water. For that matter, is a Water elemental's Jump Distance limited by it's Swim Speed, or its "Walking around" Speed? Can they jump further out of water than they could off of a solid surface? More relevant to most adventurers, what is the maximum jump distance if you have access to a Fly Speed?

Though it's easy to make rulings in all of these cases, it doesn't give explicit rules for how to adjudicate this. Ergo, it's Dysfunctional.

[Rijan_Sai]

The maximum distance jumped is based on your jump check. The maximum distance in a round is based on your speed (if you run out of movement, you must continue the jump into the next round as a move action).



How is that not clear as day?

Because of the "Maximum speed for the round" line.

***Arbitrary Numbers Ahead***

Let's say I have a speed of:
Land: 30
Swim:30
Flight: 120

Now, I move 20 feet, let's say in the water, then jump. I have a (arbitrarily high) jump check, that allows me to jump 100 feet. Which round do I land in?

^This is the disfunction that they have been questioning for so many pages.

[georgie_leech]

snip

Much obliged, that is an excellent summary.

[Pickford]

Because the quoted rule does not specify which speed is used to determine the maximum distance per round.

Any time you see the phrase "Speed" it refers to Land Speed, it's the default.

Rijan_Sai: The only way to move 20 feet in the water would be using your swim speed, so we refer to the rules in Stormwrack:

With a successful high jump that gets you entirely clear of the water (a result of 0 feet or better) you can begin flying at an elevation of 5 feet (presuming you have a fly speed).

So, if you used your move action, you could jump as far as that move action (i.e. up to 10' since that's all you'd have remaining using 20' of your swim speed in the move action to prep for the jump) and then on your next move action could continue moving with your fly speed.

Speed is how far you move in a 'single' move action, that's all. There's no dysfunction here.

edit: If you're continuing a jump check from moving out of water (using a swim speed), and decline to fly, then you'd keep using your swim speed in move actions to determine distance travelled until total jump distance was attained. Clear?

[Necroticplague]

Any time you see the phrase "Speed" it refers to Land Speed, it's the default.

I see nothing in the glossary entry for speed. Or the entry for base land speed. Nowhere is the default of using land speed stated.

[Andezzar]

Any time you see the phrase "Speed" it refers to Land Speed, it's the default.

Speed is what I used. The rules say:

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

Rijan_Sai: The only way to move 20 feet in the water would be using your swim speed, so we refer to the rules in Stormwrack:

That you are able to start flying once you have completely exited the water has nothing to do with how far you can jump in a round. Once you are flying you are no longer jumping.

edit: If you're continuing a jump check from moving out of water (using a swim speed), and decline to fly, then you'd keep using your swim speed in move actions to determine distance travelled until total jump distance was attained. Clear?

That is not clear, that is your opinion. The rules only limit your jump distance to your maximum movement. The rules do not specify which movement mode needs to be used. And if you can move 30 ft on land, 30 ft. in water and 120 ft in the air, your maximum movement is 120 ft.

[Pickford]

Speed is what I used. The rules say:

That you are able to start flying once you have completely exited the water has nothing to do with how far you can jump in a round. Once you are flying you are no longer jumping.

That is not clear, that is your opinion. The rules only limit your jump distance to your maximum movement. The rules do not specify which movement mode needs to be used. And if you can move 30 ft on land, 30 ft. in water and 120 ft in the air, your maximum movement is 120 ft.

No, that is clear:

A Jump check is included n your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

So, since you cannot do a swim check fast enough to move 20' prior to the jump you, by default, are using swim speed. That's 30', so the character can move, at most, 10' in that move action and once they reach any distance 5'+ above water must either continue using move actions in the jump or transition into flying which has rules that must also be followed and which would no longer require movement for the jump action.

Edit: You are incorrect, the rules do NOT limit jump distance by your movement, it is entirely limited by your Jump check.

[Fax Celestis]

Edit: You are incorrect, the rules do NOT limit jump distance by your movement, it is entirely limited by your Jump check.

Not according to what you just quoted:

A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

[Namfuak]

Edit: You are incorrect, the rules do NOT limit jump distance by your movement, it is entirely limited by your Jump check.

Not according to what you just quoted:

I'm only going to jump in and say that Pickford is referencing the maximum distance a jump takes, while Fax Celestis is referencing the amount of movement you jump in a round. This is where the disconnect on this argument is it seems.

[nedz]

Because of the "Maximum speed for the round" line.

***Arbitrary Numbers Ahead***

Let's say I have a speed of:
Land: 30
Swim:30
Flight: 120

Now, I move 20 feet, let's say in the water, then jump. I have a (arbitrarily high) jump check, that allows me to jump 100 feet. Which round do I land in?

^This is the dysfunction that they have been questioning for so many pages.

You move at your Swim speed unless you start Flying.
If you start Flying then you can land in any round you wish to.

[illyahr]

That would be a damage penalty, not an attack penalty.

It's not a penalty, you just fail to get the bonus for using a weapon two-handed if you are TWF. I fail to see the disconnect.

[Rijan_Sai]

You move at your Swim speed unless you start Flying.
If you start Flying then you can land in any round you wish to.

This is true, according to RAMS and RACSD, and for the record I agree.

That said, the RAW of Jump states:

Jump (Str; Armor Check Penalty)
Check
The DC and the distance you can cover vary according to the type of jump you are attempting (see below).

Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

If you have ranks in Jump and you succeed on a Jump check, you land on your feet (when appropriate). If you attempt a Jump check untrained, you land prone unless you beat the DC by 5 or more.

Given that this entire topic (all 4 of them!) is based on strict (and rather pedantic) readings of RAW, "Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round" can easily mean that (using the same numbers from above) even though I use my Swim speed (30') to start the movement, I can use my Fly speed (120') to determine the maximum distance I can jump for the round.

Again, RAMS/RACSD I agree with and would use when I DM...it's still technically not RAW.

[Venger]

You move at your Swim speed unless you start Flying.
If you start Flying then you can land in any round you wish to.

is there any rule that says you can't "fly" underwater if you have perfect maneuverabiilty and are thus just sort of levitating magically like superman instead of beating your wings?

[Necroticplague]

is there any rule that says you can't "fly" underwater if you have perfect maneuverabiilty and are thus just sort of levitating magically like superman instead of beating your wings?

yes, there is, actually, from the glossary (because I like arguments by definitions):

Fly: A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load; see Carrying Capacity, page 161 of the Player's Handbook. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows

[Ksheep]

yes, there is, actually, from the glossary (because I like arguments by definitions):

That brings up another dysfunction: Even if you can fly via some magical means and have Good or better maneuverability (aka your magical means of flight allows you to hover, among other things), if you were to enter a vacuum, you would suddenly fall to the ground.

[Menzath]

Or flying through a Non-air Substance, like many of the fog/cloud spells that create gasses.
Does that also mean you cannot fly through someone who is in gaseous form or when hit by a dragons gas breath that lasts more than 1 round?

[Ksheep]

What's really odd is that it wouldn't effect Levitate. So, a level 2 wizard spell is less likely to make you fall than a level 3 wizard spell (or a level 5 spell, for Overland Flight). Seems a bit off, if you ask me.

[Fax Celestis]

It's not a penalty, you just fail to get the bonus for using a weapon two-handed if you are TWF. I fail to see the disconnect.

You're wielding the weapon in two hands, aren't you? And if you two-hand a weapon, you get STR*1.5 to damage. It only states you treat the weapon as one-handed/light for the purposes of TWF attack roll penalties, which STR modifier to damage is not part of.

[nedz]

This is true, according to RAMS and RACSD, and for the record I agree.

That said, the RAW of Jump states:

Given that this entire topic (all 4 of them!) is based on strict (and rather pedantic) readings of RAW, "Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round" can easily mean that (using the same numbers from above) even though I use my Swim speed (30') to start the movement, I can use my Fly speed (120') to determine the maximum distance I can jump for the round.

Again, RAMS/RACSD I agree with and would use when I DM...it's still technically not RAW.

I think that my statement was correct by RAW.

Movement Modes
Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.

Fly
A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows: ...

Swim
A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its swim speed without making Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. The creature can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

So when swimming this is my normal mode of movement; however:

Flight (Ex or Su)
A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. ...

I can switch to flying as soon as I'm moving through air, though this is voluntary. Jump simply does not assume that you can fly.

[Andvare]

Why are you arguing with Pickford?
He is either a troll, which I suspect, or his grasp of both English and the rules are limited. There were some 30 pages in a thread recently of arguments based on his presumed failure to understand what "condition" actually means.

[TuggyNE]

Why are you arguing with Pickford?
He is either a troll, which I suspect, or his grasp of both English and the rules are limited. There were some 30 pages in a thread recently of arguments based on his presumed failure to understand what "condition" actually means.

As stimulating as such conversations may be, Dysfunctional Rules is not really the place for them. Any entry sufficiently controversial to deserve as much as a page of replies should be broken off into its own thread posthaste.

[Pickford]

I think that my statement was correct by RAW.

So when swimming this is my normal mode of movement; however:

I can switch to flying as soon as I'm moving through air, though this is voluntary. Jump simply does not assume that you can fly.

Agreed, and if you do choose to begin flying (which based on your maneuverability will have separate rules) you're automatically no longer jumping.

[nedz]

Another dysfunction:
You can Jump whilst Flying. This has no effect whatsoever, except that you have to land, although feats like Leap Attack might be triggerable.

[Andezzar]

Care to illuminate us how you came to this conclusion?

[The Viscount]

Air Bud rules, from the looks of it.

[illyahr]

You're wielding the weapon in two hands, aren't you? And if you two-hand a weapon, you get STR*1.5 to damage. It only states you treat the weapon as one-handed/light for the purposes of TWF attack roll penalties, which STR modifier to damage is not part of.

*facepalm* Please read the second bolded section again. It explicitly says you only get the 1.5x Str when you DON'T TWF.