Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[nedz]

Handbook is here, although it looks like it hasn't been updated since early November (and the current thread hasn't been added yet, by the looks of it).

A Link can normally be found in my signature, but since this is signature swap week someone else is looking after it.

I did the last 10 pages of thread 3 and was hoping someone would pick up the slack on thread 3, since I have to compile them all anyway. I will make a start on thread 4 shortly if no one else jumps in.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Actually, this bit comes after:

...and it makes no differentiation between a Tiny- creature and a Small+ creature. Unless your target is helpless, you cannot end your movement in an opponent's square.

Yes, the RAI is that a Tiny- creature can enter an opponent's square to attack, but RAW there are no provisions that allow a Tiny- creature to end their movement in a larger creature's square, just provisions that allow them to move through during their movement--which means that, without an ability that allows them to attack during their movement (such as Spring Attack), a Tiny- creature can't attack a non-helpless opponent in melee, as they're required to end their movement in an opponent's square to do so.

I would like to point out that tiny or smaller creatures being able to enter a non-helpless creature's square seems more specific no creature can end their movement in a non-helpless creature's square.

[The Viscount]

...and it makes no differentiation between a Tiny- creature and a Small+ creature. Unless your target is helpless, you cannot end your movement in an opponent's square.

I realize that as presented we see this rule:

You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Followed soon after by this rule

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square.

(emphasis added)

This is precisely why I argue RAW is so clear. We first see the general rule: You cannot end in an opponent's square. We then see a specific exception to this rule: Tiny and smaller creatures can end in an opponent's square.
We have been presented with two conflicting sentences. As is RAW, the more specific takes precedence (as specific trumps general), and Tiny and smaller creatures can enter the squares of an opponent. The more specific sentence says "into" which to me means you can move into your opponent's square.


If you need further convincing, the Rules Compendium actually clears this up. It helpfully says

If you’re Small or larger, you usually can’t end your movement in a square occupied by another Small or larger creature...Tiny and smaller creatures can freely share space with
other creatures.

EDIT: As for compiling, I'll have some free time to do some starting this Saturday, so I can take the next chunk.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm going to disagree with you, but it will boil down to the same argument I've presented above, so I'm not going to argue it any further.

[Chronos]

I'm with Fax here: The rules say that you can move into the square; they don't say you don't have to immediately move back out of it.

That said, isn't there some rule that automatically moves you out of a square if you try to end your turn in another creature's space? It seems like tiny creatures could exploit that.

[nedz]

This is more of a fluff/crunch disconnect.

Changelings are described as being created from a union between Humans and Dopplegangers (MM3 p24), yet they do not qualify for Able Learner although both Humans and Dopplegangers do.

[Gadora]

This is more of a fluff/crunch disconnect.

Changelings are described as being created from a union between Humans and Dopplegangers (MM3 p24), yet they do not qualify for Able Learner although both Humans and Dopplegangers do.

From the Adaptation section on the Chameleon class: "If you're using the EBERRON Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers. In this case, the Able Learner feat extends to changelings as well."

[Curmudgeon]

I'm with Fax here: The rules say that you can move into the square; they don't say you don't have to immediately move back out of it.

It's worse than that: you can't end your movement in an occupied square. Spring Attack gets around this by splitting a move action around an attack action, so the movement isn't ended if you share the opponent's square for the attack. Excepting this sort of "interrupted" move (and note this rule precedes the existence of immediate actions), all you can do is move through.

Unless you're Tiny or smaller, that is — as pointed out in the basic rules, and stated more clearly in Rules Compendium.

[Fax Celestis]

That said, isn't there some rule that automatically moves you out of a square if you try to end your turn in another creature's space? It seems like tiny creatures could exploit that.

It only covers accidentally ending movement in an illegal space; nothing about intentionally doing so (probably because the paragraph immediately preceding it states that you can't end movement in an occupied square).

[Necroticplague]

From the Adaptation section on the Chameleon class: "If you're using the EBERRON Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers. In this case, the Able Learner feat extends to changelings as well."

Plus, their's a splatbook (Races of Destiny, I think) that says any half-human races get a [Human] Subtype, which lets you qualify for anything requiring you to be human (and a feat that lets you pick up the subtype, indicating you have just enough human blood for it to manner (like say, being a 7/8 elf, 1/8 human)).

[Chronos]

Races of Destiny is also the book that Able Learner and the Chameleon class come from.

[Curmudgeon]

Plus, their's a splatbook (Races of Destiny, I think) that says any half-human races get a [Human] Subtype, which lets you qualify for anything requiring you to be human (and a feat that lets you pick up the subtype, indicating you have just enough human blood for it to manner (like say, being a 7/8 elf, 1/8 human)).

That's not quite right. All of what that says is dependent on the DM deciding to use a two-part variant (Races of Destiny, page 150). Only if the second part of that variant is in place will having the human subtype be enough to qualify you for something where Human race is required (and the same goes for the feat). Subtypes and races are different D&D categories.

[nedz]

Plus, their's a splatbook (Races of Destiny, I think) that says any half-human races get a [Human] Subtype, which lets you qualify for anything requiring you to be human (and a feat that lets you pick up the subtype, indicating you have just enough human blood for it to manner (like say, being a 7/8 elf, 1/8 human)).

Changelings are Humanoid (shapechanger) — half human in fluff only.

[nedz]

Another dysfunction which effects all Devotion feats combined with the elemental domains.

E.g.

Healing Devotion
...
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend.

Suppose I have the Water domain, say, and can Turn Fire/Rebuke Water ?

Now the RAI is fairly obvious in that you shouldn't be able to use these to power Devotion feats, but that's not what it says.

[Scow2]

I would say RAI is very clear on this one, but A)that's not what this thread is about and B) With things like feats that require it, it wouldn't be the first, nor the last, time that the writers didn't understand the rules while making up new ones.

Is it really not what the thread was about? I thought this thread was for documenting actually-broken rules in need of houseruling to clean up (Such as Spot/Listen checks). If there's no need to make a houserule, or if the "Houserule" is the same as the written rule, then it's not dysfunctional and thus not the point of this thread.

Changelings are Humanoid (shapechanger) — half human in fluff only.

Fluff and crunch are both rules. Otherwise, we'd all be playing 4e.

Also, the Adaption section extends Human+Doppleganger feats/abilities to extend to Changelings.

[Flickerdart]

Another dysfunction which effects all Devotion feats combined with the elemental domains.

E.g.

Healing Devotion
...
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend.

Suppose I have the Water domain, say, and can Turn Fire/Rebuke Water ?

Now the RAI is fairly obvious in that you shouldn't be able to use these to power Devotion feats, but that's not what it says.

That's not really what this thread is for. While it's a slip that lets characters get lots of uses, it's not dysfunctional by any definition.

[Fax Celestis]

Is it really not what the thread was about? I thought this thread was for documenting actually-broken rules in need of houseruling to clean up (Such as Spot/Listen checks). If there's no need to make a houserule, or if the "Houserule" is the same as the written rule, then it's not dysfunctional and thus not the point of this thread.

Please indicate the rule, then, where it states that a Tiny- creature is exempt from the ban on ending movement in an occupied square.

[Andezzar]

"Moving into" as opposed to "moving through" an opponent's square means the creature ends its movement in the opponent's square.

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square.

Since those two are connected by "or" and not "and", they do not occur on the same movement.

[Fax Celestis]

...which is still not an exemption to this rule:

Ending Your Movement
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

[Andezzar]

I just explained why it is. Once again, the quoted rule allows the tiny or smaller creature to move into and not through any occupied square, not just those occupied by a helpless creature. Such a movement obviously ends in an occupied square. The rule cannot exist unless it overrides the general rule of not being allowed to end the movement in an occupied square unless the occupant is helpless.

[Fax Celestis]

I said I wasn't going to argue about this here, and apparently I lied. If people really want to argue about it, I guess I could start another thread.

[Andezzar]

Found another one:

The morphing property is supposed to only allow a weapon to be changed within its category. However in the categories light, one-handed and two-handed there are always weapons that are also classified as thrown weapons.

So take any light weapon and transform it into a throwing axe (because that weapon also is a thrown weapon). The throwing axe as a thrown weapon can be transformed into any other thrown weapon. A trident is a one-handed melee weapon besides being a thrown weapon, a spear is a two-handed melee weapon beside being a thrown weapon.

[TuggyNE]

Found another one:

The morphing property is supposed to only allow a weapon to be changed within its category. However in the categories light, one-handed and two-handed there are always weapons that are also classified as thrown weapons.

So take any light weapon and transform it into a throwing axe (because that weapon also is a thrown weapon). The throwing axe as a thrown weapon can be transformed into any other thrown weapon. A trident is a one-handed melee weapon besides being a thrown weapon, a spear is a two-handed melee weapon beside being a thrown weapon.

I think you're mixing classifications. Weapons lists throwing as a category along with reach, double, projectile, and ammunition, while light, one-handed, and melee are categories on a separate axis and listed in a different section. In fact, here (emphasis added).

Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories.

These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).

[Andezzar]

I know that those are interlocking. The problem is that some weapons are classified as both:

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.

This table however also list some of them as light, one-handed or two-handed weapons.

You can reshape a morphing weapon into any other melee or thrown weapon of the same size and type (light, one-handed, or two-handed). For instance, a morphing greatsword could become a spear, greataxe, or dire flail.

The rules do not say that thrown weapons are further divided into light thrown, one-handed thrown and two-handed thrown weapons.
So this either means that you can do the aforementioned chain, or dedicated thrown weapons (javelin, net, shuriken) cannot be morphed at all because they lack a classification for melee.
Either way it's dysfunctional.

[Ksheep]

One issue with that: It clarifies, in the description of Morphing, that "Type" in this instance refers to "Light, One-handed, or Two-handed".

[Darrin]

One issue with that: It clarifies, in the description of Morphing, that "Type" in this instance refers to "Light, One-handed, or Two-handed".

Feycraft bastard sword counts as all three.

[Ksheep]

Feycraft bastard sword counts as all three.

So if you have a Morphing Feycraft Bastard Sword, you technically have any weapon you want at any time? Count me in!

[Andezzar]

One issue with that: It clarifies, in the description of Morphing, that "Type" in this instance refers to "Light, One-handed, or Two-handed".

IN that case javelins and shuriken and possibly other dedicated thrown weapons cannot be morphed at all despite being valid targets for the enchantment, because they are neither light, nor one-handed nor two-handed weapons, they are ranged weapons. Hence the dysfunction.

[Menzath]

The Master of Many Forms (Complete Adventurer) lets you speak to any creature you change into as if you knew their language while allowing you to retain all your normal speech as well.
So when I can change into humanoids I can change into a Drow, and while speaking to a drow I can speak Undercommon and Elvish, but not when I speak to other humanoids even other Elves.
Or when you can change into a Hill giant you can speak Giant, but not to Fire giants or ogres...
That is so darn goofy.

Funny enough would that mean if you had a room full of all the elvish races and used example #1, as long as you were speaking to only the drow, every elf in the room would here you speaking elvish?

[Flickerdart]

IN that case javelins and shuriken and possibly other dedicated thrown weapons cannot be morphed at all despite being valid targets for the enchantment, because they are neither light, nor one-handed nor two-handed weapons, they are ranged weapons. Hence the dysfunction.

Though, if ranged weapons could be two- or one-handed, then a Large creature could dual-wield two Medium bows and still fire both of them.