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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Zaydos's Avatar

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    Aug 2009
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    Erutnevda

    Default Courtier (Base Class, PEACH)

    Sometimes I want to play a character who is a diplomat, a noble, a prince. When I do I donít want to be a magical musician vagabond, or a master of stabbing things. Sometimes I just want to see an aristocrat as a PC class. I canít say if Iím alone or not, but Wizards did make a character for this in d20 Star Wars which was ported into the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book. This has problems. The Noble class in Star Wars was limited (in my experience) to a dip before going into the Scoundrel class to round out certain social skills and that was bad enough but porting it to 3.5 where power levels are much higher (Scoundrel is a worse Rogue, Jedi might work as a low tier PC class and it or a ranged Soldier i.e. Fighter is the strongest class in the game) it has problems. This is coupled with that it has no class features that allow you to do anything meaningful in combat means it doesnít work well. So I decided to make one of my own. I changed the name to Courtier because, well itís not a re-tool, itís not supposed to be the Noble itís a class few enough people know and it did the job worse than a marshal (which I also think needs a re-tool for several of the same reasons). In fact the class shares more with Marshal (Skill Focus at 1st level and the ability to grant actions) than with Noble.

    I didnít write the fluff section because, quite frankly itís a courtier most people know what one is and I wanted to go ahead and get it posted for mechanical critiques. Some of the abilities I felt I needed to explain my reasoning and some of this includes some of my ideas on the fluff role of a courtier but other than Role and Other Classes (what I had written before I decided to rush and post it) the rest will have to wait or show up only on request. While I largely describe a noble or member of the court, and they are my main aim with the class, hopefully the class is versatile enough to also represent a wealthy merchant or similar.

    As far as balance goes Iím aiming for Tier 4 in a dungeon delving situation, and being better than that in a dedicated social situation. I aimed at able to contribute in a party against a non-speaking enemy but be significantly stronger against more human foes. If it ends up Tier 3 I'm still happy as Mid tier 3 to mid tier 4 tends to be my preferred balance point.

    Other Classes: As people from the courts at the hearts of civilizations courtiers know how to get along well with most others. They appreciate the power of those skilled at arms as bodyguards and soldiers, though they consider many of them to be brutish. Most courtiers dislike being associated with rangers, the skilled warriors representing a group which exists on the fringes of civilization, but are more split in opinion on the true outsiders, barbarians. Some courtiers find barbarians exotic and interesting, like a rare pet, others find them to represent the most brutish and worst of humanity. Good courtiers find paladins a shining example of the heights that civilization can achieve a pinnacle of action to inspire the king and common folk, evil courtiers know that there is no threat worse than a truly righteous man.

    When dealing with arcane casters courtiers tend to openly follow the dictates of their society. In private most courtiers are at least somewhat accepting of arcanists, most dabbling in the arcane arts themselves. They can get along well enough with wizards, it is from them that they pick up their smattering of the arcane arts, but a courtier knows enough of the nature of wizards to know the countless dangerous plots they can concoct when unobserved. They are more trusting of sorcerers, understanding their powers to be more limited, and appreciating a sorcererís flair for the dramatic and force of personality. When dealing with more distrusted, and weaker, types of arcanists *cough*warlocks*cough* courtiers treat them more brusquely and abrasively.

    Courtiers judge divine casters primarily on their god. In a theocracy courtiers have no better friend than a cleric, and no more bitter foe than a cleric heretic. Outside a theocracy courtiers still know enough that it is often best to court the friendship of the godsí chosen, but many find themselves at odds with clerics for control over the hearts of the people. Courtiers get along poorly with druids, and many courtiers would not be caught dead associating with one of the unwashed, stinking, city-hating tree worshipers.

    When dealing with rogues and other underworld elements courtiers are split. Most courtiers understand the need for such under the table dealings, and the less savory among the courtiers often are the masterminds of guilds and networks of criminals. In bards courtiers find their social equals, and the two often enjoy each otherís company in small doses; they find such similarly controlling personalities to be grating as the two must match manipulation for manipulation.

    Role: In an adventuring party a courtier serves to buff and coordinate allies, providing benefits to the group instead of directly opposing the enemy. Their social skills also allow them to guide their group through non-combat situations and even turn potential enemies into allies in combat.

    HD type: d6.

    Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (-), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Skill points per Class Level: 8 + Int (x4 at 1st level)

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    Explanation: You are skill based. Your casting is worse than a bardís (being equivalent to a paladinís) and while you do not have to cover nearly as many bases as a rogue I wanted them to have more than bard or ranger. They could probably do with a lower number of skill points, though. I also gave them Craft for artistic crafts, this is why they lack Profession which tends to be more lower class (though I guess Profession Sommelier or similar would be possibly appropriate). Thought about giving them Craft (any artistic) but that requires defining what is and is not art.


    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
    1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Inspire Ally +1, Pulse of the Realm, Skill Focus (Diplomacy) - - - - -
    2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Charming Words, Revenue - - - - -
    3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Courtierís Talents, Retainers - - - - -
    4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Inspire Ally +2, Steeled Mind 2 0 - - -
    5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Inspire Action 1/encounter 3 0 - - -
    6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Honeyed Words, Safe Passage 3 1 - - -
    7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Greater Revenue, Retinue 3 1 - - -
    8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Greater Courtierís Talents, Inspire Ally +3 3 1 0 - -
    9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 Greater Charming Words, Silvered Tongue 3 1 0 - -
    10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Inspire Action 2/encounter, Inspiring Words 4 1 1 - -
    11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 Horde of Followers 4 1 1 0 -
    12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Inspire Ally +4, Overflowing Coffers 4 1 1 1 -
    13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Shielded Mind 4 1 1 1 -
    14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 Gilded Tongue, Safe Passage (free action) 4 2 1 1 0
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 Inspire Action 3/encounter 4 2 1 1 1
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Inspire Ally +5, Leader of the Masses 4 2 2 1 1
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Coffers of the Realm, Mass Safe Passage 4 2 2 2 1
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Swift Inspiration 4 3 2 2 1
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 True Charming Words 4 3 3 3 2
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Inspire Action 4/encounter, Inspire Ally +6, True King 4 3 3 3 3

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A courtier is proficient in simple weapons and 3 martial weapons of choice. They are proficient in light and medium armor and shields.

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    Explanation: A noble dabbles in things and is traditionally expected to be able to use certain weapons of rank so I gave them a few martial weapons. They got medium armor for the purpose of being able to wear fancy breastplate, but again are not truly trained warriors and lack the dedicated training for heavy armor.


    Inspire Ally (Ex): A Courtierís words serve to encourage and advice allies granting them an improved chance of success in and out of battle. As a standard action you may grant an ally within 60-ft of you that can hear you and shares a language a morale bonus to one of the following. This bonus lasts for 1 round. You may not grant yourself a bonus with this ability. At 1st level the base (listed) bonus is +1, increasing by +1 at 4th level and 4 levels thereafter. A Courtier may use this ability at will.

    Attack: You grant the target twice the listed bonus to attack and damage rolls.

    Power: You grant the target one-half the listed bonus (round down) to Caster Level, Manifester Level, Effective Binder Level, Meldshaper Level, or Initiator Level. This does not allow the target to learn abilities as if they had this increased level only activate them.

    Resistance: You grant the target the listed bonus to saving throws.

    Talents: You grant the target twice the listed bonus to Skill checks.

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    Explanation: This gives you some meaningful impact on combat. The bonus should hopefully not completely outshine a bardís Inspire Courage because it is single target and lacks optimization options. It is a little sad/boring of an ability (my turn is making player Aís more awesome) but if you enjoy being the buffer and leader it can work out. Might have the numbers too high.


    Pulse of the Realm (Ex): A Courtier takes pains to always be abreast of any rumors or information circulating within their region. To represent this breadth of knowledge, rumors, and secrets, 1/day per Courtier level you may make a Gather Information check as a free action, and gain information as if you had made a check of that DC (paying all normal costs) to obtain information in every place that you spent at least 1 hour of downtime within the last week.

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    Explanation: A noble is well informed but doesnít know what is completely unknown in the region. Iíd like something that helps them learn secrets easier (for blackmail) so suggestions would be appreciated even if they are higher level abilities.


    Skill Focus (Diplomacy): A courtier is a diplomat of the finest quality; all courtiers gain Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as a bonus feat.

    Charming Words (Ex): A Courtierís silvered words have an almost magical effect. Beginning at 2nd level a Courtier may duplicates the effects of a Charm Person spell against a creature of his own creature type (even if they are not humanoid) by talking to target creature as a standard action. The save DC for this effect is 10 +1/2 your Courtier level + your Charisma modifier, and the duration is determined with your Courtier level acting as its caster level. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1/day). This is a mind-affecting, language dependent effect, but is not a spell, or enchantment ability and is not blocked by Protection from Evil. A creature which successfully saves against a Courtierís Charming Words, or any ability that expends uses of Charming Words is immune to that Courtierís Charming Words and all abilities derived from it (including Honeyed Words) for 24 hours.

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    Explanation: It gives you a means of representing being a Charismatic speaker, and of convincing creatures to be your allies, in a combat/adventure situation without using RAW diplomacy rules. It also gives you another combat option that lets you feel like youíre personally contributing and at the same time should be no more than a Sorcererís 1st level spells per day.


    Revenue: A Courtier has sources of revenue other than those obtained through being a murderous hobo an adventurer. Beginning at 2nd level a Courtier needs never pay out of pocket for ordinary taxes or maintenance of a house (this ability does not extend to castles) and is assumed to have an income sufficient to pay for basic meals and lodgings for themselves in any civilized area without dipping into their personal adventuring funds. In addition this ability provides basic living expenses for any followers the Courtier gains through the Retainers class feature and other Courtier class features that grant followers (but not any extra gear).

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    Explanation: Youíre a noble, courtier, or merchant you need a source of wealth other than murdering monsters. This is ultimately a fluff ability at this point with very little in game effect (Iíve never seen maintenance costs/taxes actually come into play and usually seen food/lodging costs ignored). It eventually grows large enough to have game impact as it improves with level.


    Courtierís Talents (Ex): A Courtier is a master of social manipulations, and each excels in some part of the dance. Beginning at 3rd level choose either Bluff, Intimidate, or Sense Motive, you gain an untyped bonus to Diplomacy and the chosen skill equal to one half your Courtier level.

    Retainers: You gain followers as if you had the Leadership feat. If your Leadership score is less than 10 you still gain 1st level followers equal to half your Leadership score. These followers must be selected from Follower List I below. When you gain Retinue you may replace the followers from this ability with ones from List II, and again with List III when you gain Horde of Followers and List IV when you gain Leader of the Masses. All followers gained by this ability are generated by the DM (unless they would prefer to make you do the work) from a single class of your choosing.

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    Explanation: While not all nobles in fantasy fiction gather a large personal following, they do tend to have various unimportant hanger-ons and the number of servants and men-at-arms in a nobleís employ tend to number in amounts far beyond the Leadership feat. I tried to curb some of the worst abuses of followers by reinstating 3.0 style class limits on them initially slowly being removed as you gained more followers but only for an elite core. At high levels this is still capable of ridiculous feats such as ďMy 200 Lv 1 wizard followers Magic Missile the dragonĒ but itís really odd if your followers would be willing to follow you to a dragonís lair in the first place. The ability to get a bunch of Lv 1 warriors at 3rd level might still be strong but they ought to be limited to 3 or 4 and take time to replace and you need to not get them killed so it shouldnít be too bad; itís fully within a Lv 3 characterís capability to hire some cheap men at arms for the same effect (at a cost of 2 SP a day, assuming they donít keep their money on their lootable soon to be corpses).


    Follower List I:
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    Commoner
    Expert
    Warrior


    Follower List II:
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    Samurai
    Aristocrat
    Fighter
    Monk
    Ninja
    Swashbuckler
    Soulknife
    Paladin
    Knight
    Barbarian
    Rogue
    Spellthief
    Barbarian
    Ranger
    Hexblade
    Warlock
    Adept
    Healer
    Magewright
    Scout


    Follower List III:
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    Warmage
    Beguiler
    Dread Necromancer
    Crusader
    Bard
    Swordsage
    Binder
    Duskblade
    Factotum
    Warblade
    Psionic Warrior


    Follower List IV:
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    Any official base class


    Steeled Mind: A Courtierís mind is steeled towards the manipulations of the court, and to control both sorcerous and diplomatic. Beginning at 4th level a Courtier is immune to charm and dominate effects as well as any ability that duplicates their effects even if they are extraordinary abilities (such as Charming Words). In addition the DC to improve a Courtierís attitude through Diplomacy is increased by the Courtierís level, if RAW Diplomacy rules are used.

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    Explanation: A ruler needs some resistance to mind control in a setting like D&D, so I decided to give them a continuous Protection from Evil level protection from them. I weakened it a bit (no umbrella defense against compulsions) and threw in something to make RAW Diplomacy harder but I honestly just added it as an afterthought, I donít really like the implementation but RAW Diplomacy is a shoddy implementation in general.


    Spells: A Courtier is able to cast arcane spells, with a number of spells per day as given on the table above. A Courtier casts these spells as a wizard, basing them off of Intelligence, using spellbooks, and selecting spells from the wizard spell list. At 4th level they gain a spell book with all cantrips, and 3 + Int modifier 1st level spells, and each level thereafter they can add 2 spells of a level they can cast to their spellbook for free.

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    Explanation: A noble has access to the finest education in the world and while their business and social responsibilities prevents them from becoming true experts on the arcane I can think of no finer education than the arcane arts in a fantasy world. The adaptation allows for a use of this class by people who disagree, though I do not think all three are of equal power (theocrat might be stronger because it lets you still wear armor and you donít get enough spells to go for invincibility, low magic is probably weaker).


    Adaptation:
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    Theocrat: In a theocratic society replace the Courtierís arcane spellcasting with divine spellcasting from the cleric spell list cast as a cleric with the same spells per day.

    Low Magic: In a low magic setting, or a country that hates arcane magic but has no particular predilection for the divine replace a courtierís spellcasting with a bonus feat at Lv 4, 8, 11, and 14.

    Demonic Pact: For a particularly diabolic courtier you might grant them a Least Invocation (as a warlock) at 4th and 8th level, a lesser invocation at 11th, and finally a greater invocation at 15th instead of their spellcasting. This is unlikely to be a common choice unless fluff for Warlocks is changed, but can work for a noble in a court connected with infernal powers or the fey.

    Inspire Action (Ex): A Courtier acts through others, even on the battlefield. Beginning at 5th level 1/encounter a Courtier may, as a standard action, allow one creature within 60-ft which can hear and understand the courtier to take a move or attack action during their turn (this does not change the targetís initiative count). The target of this ability may not be flat-footed.

    At 10th level, and every 5th level thereafter, a Courtier gains an extra use of this ability each encounter.

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    Explanation: Again an active ďI make someone else more awesomeĒ ability. Courtier, as designed, is not made for the player who wants to get glory, or be the one that deals 300 damage in a round causing the balor to explode! But I hope it works for a more tactically minded player who enjoys weighing the benefits of making a spell harder to resist against giving the wizard an extra spell, or giving the fighter an extra full attack against giving the fighter an extra +10 to attack and damage for one round (actually this is more likely to be used to move the fighter into position than give them an extra full attack because the bonus to hit and damage is usually going to outweigh an extra full attack).


    Honeyed Words (Ex): A Courtierís words are convincing, able to manipulate even the strong willed into following their desires. Beginning at 6th level a Courtier may expend one use of their Charming Words ability to attempt, as a Standard action, to affect a target creature within 60-ft as through the use of a Suggestion spell. This is a language dependent, mind-affecting extraordinary ability.

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    Explanation: Another combat option where you actively do something and a representation of you having a skill with words that is going beyond the human. Itís 6th level and while I think itís a little early to be completely leaving the human behind, Iíve seen the arguments made for doing so and admit they have some validity.


    Safe Passage (Ex): A Courtierís words and pleads can cause even the vilest of enemies to halt their hands against him. A Courtier may, through talking to foes, create an effect equivalent to a Sanctuary spell with a Will save DC of 10 + Ĺ Courtier Class level + Courtierís Charisma modifier. Activating, and maintaining, this ability is a Move action each round. Unlike Sanctuary this is a mind-affecting, language-based ability, a creature unable to hear or understand the Courtier ignores this ability completely. If you perform an action which breaks this Sanctuary effect (not dropping it, but something like attacking a creature) you may not benefit from it again that encounter.
    At 14th level a Courtier may use and maintain this ability as a free action, and any creature which can hear the Courtier but not understand him must still make a Will save but gains a +5 bonus to their save.

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    Explanation: You get a defensive ability and invoke your right as a diplomat. Oddly enough Iím for some reason really worried about this ability.


    Greater Revenue: A Courtierís holdings increase as his fame and power spread. Beginning at 7th level a Courtierís Revenue now provides basic gear (non-Mw, non-magical gear no single item of which costs more than 200 GP) to his followers gained through class features as well as providing him with the regular maintenance costs and taxes of a mansion or estate, and the cost of fine meals and lodgings while in civilized regions. Finally during any week in which the Courtier spends at least 3 days within civilized regions they may make a Diplomacy check and gain gold equal to half their result (rounded down).

    Retinue: A Courtier of standing has need of a greater number of hanger-ons, servants and men-at-arms than their lesser peers. A Courtier gains additional level 1 followers equal to those they would receive from the Leadership feat. These followers must be selected from Follower List I below. All followers gained by this ability are generated by the DM (unless they would prefer to make you do the work) from a single class of your choosing.

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    Explanation: By this point if Leadership is allowed everyone can get it. This lets you represent a larger base of servants and followers Iíd expect a noble to maintain and gives you a baseline competence without seeking it out with RP. I like seeking out followers and cohorts through RP but if a class is supposed to be for an archetype it must maintain baseline competency with what it has built in and this ability (coupled with Revenueís improvements) means you have a baseline as a merchant prince, or noble and can instead focus on improving your holdings beyond the class granted ones using them as a seed investment. This is probably when your followers are strongest as you could actually have a base of operations, a reputation for fairness and generosity, great renown and maybe even special power by this point giving you 14 + Charisma quite possibly 20 for your Leadership Score. This gives you a Lv 5 Warrior and a Lv 5 Fighter though youíre likely to have Lv 4 ones (no base of operations) or lower depending upon power level of the world (youíre unlikely to qualify for ďspecial powerĒ and while you might qualify for ďgreat renownĒ itís no guarantee in a world where 8th level is common) and could only have Lv 1 and 2 followers depending upon how the DM determines modifiers. This lets the DM regulate its power in campaigns where Leadership is banned and this class is allowed.


    Greater Courtierís Talent: A Courtierís words carry a weight that borders on the magical. Beginning at 8th level a Courtier gains one of the following abilities based upon their choice of Courtierís Talent. Each of these abilities is usable once per encounter.

    Bluff: As a standard action a Courtier can weave a lie so vivid that the target believes it completely trapping themselves in a world of illusion. The target must make a Will save (DC 10 + Ĺ Courtier Class level + Courtierís Charisma modifier) or be confused as per the spell for a number of rounds equal to half your Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round). This is a mind-affecting, language dependent ability.

    Intimidate: As a standard action a Courtier can wordlessly glare at foes causing them to quake. A courtierís glare creates a 30-ft cone in which enemies that can see the Courtier must make a Will save (DC 10 + Ĺ Courtier Class level + Courtierís Charisma modifier) or be frightened for a number of rounds equal to one-third your Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round). This is a mind-affecting, fear effect.

    Sense Motive: As a standard action a Courtier can attempt to force a target that can hear him to answer one question completely honestly. The target must make a Will save (DC 10 + Ĺ Courtier Class Level + Courtierís Charisma modifier) or answer the question as truthfully as possible (they may not Bluff or withhold information). This is a mind-affecting, language dependent effect.

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    Explanation: I wanted to make your choice for Courtierís Talent matter more and I wanted to give you some extra activated ability for combat. Bluff and Intimidate are nerfed spells available at this level while Sense Motive gives you a unique ability that even if it is the non-combat choice seems like it ought to be able to be used to fun effect.


    Greater Charming Words: A Courtierís words grow ever more persuasive. Beginning at 9th level a Courtier may expend 2 daily uses of their Charming Words ability to increase its effect to one equivalent to Charm Monster affecting creatures regardless of type and with a duration of 1 day per Courtier class level. This may affect creatures which do not share a language with you (such as animals) but they gain a +5 bonus to their Will save.

    Silver Tongue (Ex): A Courtierís words can give pause to even the most aggressive creature. Beginning at 9th level a Courtier may, once per encounter, attempt to talk down a creature as a standard action. The Courtier makes a Diplomacy check against a DC of 10 + 1.5 times the creatureís CR and the target must make a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 Courtier level + Courtierís Charisma modifier). If the target fails their save they may not take any directly offensive action against the Courtier or the courtierís allies for 1 round. They may still take defensive actions, summon allies, create walls to prevent the Courtier and his allies from reaching them, etc.

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    Explanation: Again a combat option that shows your skill with words. Iím a little worried about its power level, and really Safe Passage was originally a nerfed replacement for this (it was also a level 7 ability at the time). I originally had it simply have a Will save DC of Ĺ your Diplomacy check since I wanted to actually use a Diplomacy check for some class feature but due to synergy bonus the DC got too high (without it the DC was just harder to increase without custom items averaging at a little lower than normal). So I made it CR based and with your class bonus to Diplomacy you should never be failing checks against level appropriate encounters (at Lv 9 you have a +25 before Charisma assuming +6 synergy bonus and max ranks so can reliably use it on CR 12 creatures and at Lv 20 you have a +42 before Charisma with the same assumptions).


    Inspiring Words (Ex): A Courtier learns how to speak not just to one creature but to the masses, encouraging them and coordinating their efforts. As a standard action a Courtier may attempt to inspire all allies within 120-ft that can hear them. Doing so grants the targets one-half the morale bonus granted by the Courtierís Inspire Ally ability to all things affected by a Courtierís Inspire Ally ability (Attack, Intensity, Power, Resistance, and Talent) at the same time.

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    Explanation: You get a bunch of followers you ought to have a class feature that actually benefits multiple allies instead of feeling like some chess-style manipulator and these followers are no longer that powerful for your level (though beginning at next level some of them can be Tier 3 classes, but they will also be ). The halved benefits makes it something that you will use some times but other times prefer the single target ability, and it adds another layer of tactical choice (buff the mageís save DC? Buff attack and damage for the fighter? Do both not as well? Give the mage an extra action?).


    Horde of Followers: A Courtier of your standing attracts followers and people eager to enter your service and receive your patronage. Beginning at 11th level you gain additional followers equal to the amount granted by the Leadership feat. These followers must be selected from Follower List I below. When you gain Leader of the Masses you may replace the followers from this ability with ones from List II, and again with List III when you gain True King. All followers gained by this ability are generated by the DM (unless they would prefer to make you do the work) from a single class of your choosing.

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    Explanation: By this point you could realistically have Lv 6 followers but the ability to have a Lv 6 Warblade is also far less impressive at Lv 11 than it could be. Your Inspiring Words can make them relevant but youíll only have 4 Lv 6 characters at most and probably the same for Lv 5 and canít reliably use them for combat (they die too easy and take time to replace). So itís mostly a fluffy thing, though the hordes of Lv 1 adepts and warlocks could prove somewhat disruptive.


    Overflowing Coffers: A Courtierís holdings grow truly vast, granting them an ever increasing flow of wealth. You no longer must ever pay normal maintenance or taxes on any lands and holdings out of pocket, it is assumed that your various mercantile ventures make enough money to recoup the expenses of your holdings and if you have the Landlord feat you gain an additional 25% gold usable within the limitations of the Landlord feat unlike the feat this bonus wealth does not match gold you spend on a fortress. Your followers gained from this class chosen from List II or higher gain 1000 GP worth of gear per level they have without you needing to pay to provide it. In addition you need not pay for even luxurious food or lodging out of pocket. Finally when you make a Diplomacy check to gain money as described in the Greater Revenue ability you gain gold equal to twice the Diplomacy check instead of Ĺ.

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    Explanation: The gold gain is still marginal (about 90 GP a week) but the equipment for your followers is now more meaningful. Iíve never actually been sure whether followers got free NPC level gear or not, and this was a way of making sure they have relevant gear regardless of DM ruling. I could base it directly off NPC wealth by level and probably should. Finally the increase to Landlord feat is because it exists to represent the same basic independent wealth and resources in a game more focused on their effects.


    Shielded Mind (Ex): A Courtierís mind is accustomed to both magical and mundane probing, and a Courtier has many secrets which they hide behind an anfractuous labyrinth which keeps mortal attempts at control and prying at bay. Beginning at 13th level a Courtier is protected from effects as if they had a continuous Mindblank ability.

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    Explanation: Building off my belief that in a world like D&D a ruler must be immune to magical mind control. This gives them a powerful defensive ability earlier than even a caster gets it, and from a fluff perspective youíre dealing with high level characters, edging into the mythical. At this point youíre Havelock Vetinari and far beyond Princess Leia (at least in a New Hope), youíre a major politician. Youíre so used to lying and double think that even magic has to throw up its hands in confusion. Mechanically a dread necromancer got this 6 levels ago through their familiar if they wanted it.


    Gilded Tongue: Beginning at 14th level a Courtier may use their Silver Tongue ability twice per encounter and it may affect creatures which do not share a language although you take a -10 on your Diplomacy check to do so.

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    Explanation: An expansion on Silver Tongue. Even with the -10 youíre almost assured to overcome the Diplomacy DC and it serves to make it minimally harder to affect them and feels thematically appropriate.


    Leader of the Masses: A Courtierís fame and prestige draws hundreds to his banner and estates. Beginning at 16th level you gain additional followers equal to two times the amount granted by the Leadership feat. These followers must be selected from Follower List I below. When you gain True King you may replace the followers from this ability with ones from List II. All followers gained by this ability are generated by the DM (unless they would prefer to make you do the work) from a single class of your choosing.

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    Explanation: Itís 16th level even if you were merely a wealthy merchant by this point you should lead a mercantile empire that stretches across the country. This lets you have almost an army (1350 total Lv 1 followers) of craftsmen, mercenaries, and minor casters in your employ. At this point a pair of Lv 6 wizards shouldnít be game breaking unless itís a world where they donít exist at which pointÖ they donít exist.


    Coffers of the Realm: A Courtierís wealth is unrivaled except by the most powerful kings and merchants. If you have the Landlord feat you gain an additional 75% gold usable within the limitations of the Landlord feat unlike the feat this bonus wealth does not match gold you spend on a fortress (coupled with Overflowing Coffers this doubles the gold provided by that feat). Your followers gained from this class chosen from List II or higher gain 2000 GP worth of gear per level they have without you needing to pay to provide it. In addition you need not pay for even extravagant food or lodging for yourself out of pocket and luxurious food and lodgings for your Charisma modifier in companions. Finally when you make a Diplomacy check to gain money as described in the Greater Revenue ability you gain gold equal to ten times the Diplomacy check instead of Ĺ.

    Mass Safe Passage (Ex): A Courtier can extend his protection even to his allies. This requires a Standard action and functions like Safe Passage but protects up to your Charisma modifier in creatures. If any of them do an action that breaks this protection it breaks it for you and all other creatures protected this way and you cannot benefit from Safe Passage again this encounter.

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    Explanation: You can get a Mass Sanctuary effect at a relatively high levelÖexcept mindless creatures are immune.


    Swift Inspiration (Ex): A Courtier can inspire an ally with a single word and an appropriate expression or gesture. Beginning at 18th level a Courtier can use Inspire Ally (but not Inspiring Words) as a Swift action. As all bonuses from Inspire Ally and Inspiring Words are Morale bonuses if a Courtier uses both they do not stack.

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    Explanation: A high level ability that represents a major change to play style. You can now use Inspire Action on a character youíve already given a large bonus to damage to (possibly too large) or a caster with a buffed save DC.


    True Charming Word: A Courtierís words sway the heart leaving a permanent impact on the listener. Once per day when using their Charming Word ability a Courtier may expend 4 daily uses of that ability to attempt to cause the effect to be an instantaneous change in the creatureís thoughts; this ability affects any type of creature(but does not overcome type based mind-affection immunity).

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    Explanation: I almost think this should cost XP or have a HD limit of total targets.


    True King: A Courtier attracts nearly countless people who seek his patronage, giving him a massive base of followers to draw upon. Beginning at 20th level you gain additional level 1 followers equal to six times the amount granted by the Leadership feat. These followers must be selected from Follower List I below. All followers gained by this ability are generated by the DM (unless they would prefer to make you do the work) from a single class of your choosing.
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2016-09-16 at 06:51 PM.
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    Courtier Feats

    Azure Courtier
    You were born with the power to manipulate incarnum, and through its powers and manipulation you win the hearts of men and women.
    Prerequisites: Revenue, levels in a meldshaping class.
    Benefits: When you take this feat select one meldshaping base class you possess. You may add your Courtier level to your levels in that class to determine what chakra binds you have access to, but not other features such as improved capacity in soulmelds/chakra binds, increased number of soulmelds/chakra binds, or increased essentia.
    You may add levels in the selected class to your Courtier level to gain access to retainers and its improved abilities (Retinue, Horde of Servants, Leader of the Masses, True King).

    Clanheir
    You are no human noble born to trade and art, you are a noble of the dwarven race born into one of the trade clans with all the responsibilities that goes with it.
    Prerequisites: Dwarf, Courtier level 1+.
    Benefits: Add Profession to your Courtier class skill.

    You may add your Courtierís Talent bonus to all Craft, Profession, and Appraise checks dealing with stone or metal.

    You gain a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves as long as you have max ranks in a Craft or Profession skill.

    Court General
    Not all courtiers forsake the way of the sword completely, many generals who fight along the front lines with their troops have some skill in playing the court when they return, and even those that do not play the games of intrigue often have the ability to rally huge forces and inspire these troops.
    Prerequisites: Revenue, Fighter level 2+.
    Benefits: You may add your Fighter or Warblade levels to your Courtier levels to gain access to Retainers and its improvements (Retinue, Horde of Servants, Leader of the Masses, and True King), and for Revenue and its improved versions (Greater Revenue, Overflowing Coffers, Coffers of the Realm).

    You may add your Courtier levels to your Fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats.

    Fey Courtier
    You have a connection to the natural world extending from your fey heritage which is unlike that of other courtiers and allows you to deal with natural creatures in ways that others can only envy. Perfect for playing a Disney Princess.
    Prerequisites: Fey Heritage (Complete Mage feat), Wisdom 13+, Courtier level 1+.
    Benefits: You gain Wild Empathy with a bonus to your check equal to your Courtier level (or adding your Courtier level to your levels in other classes which grant this ability) and may add the bonus from your Courtierís Talent to Wild Empathy checks.

    In addition you may use Speak with Animals as a spell-like ability a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier, using your Courtier level as your Caster Level. Once you have obtained Courtier Lv 5 you may expend 2 uses of this ability to use Speak with Plants instead.

    Magocrat:
    In a true magocracy a courtierís dabbling in magical skill is rarely enough for them to keep their place among the ranks of nobility, limiting them to a powerful lesser noble that has the heart of the people and nothing more. Some, though, couple greater magical power with their skills gaining wealth and power in the upper courts.
    Prerequisites: Sorcerer, Wizard, or Wu Jen level 1+,Courtierís Talent.
    Benefits: When you take this feat choose one of Sorcerer, Wizard, or Wu Jen which you have levels in. You may add your levels in the selected class to your Courtier levels for the purpose of your Courtierís Talent and access to Revenue and its improved versions (Greater Revenue, Overflowing Coffers, and Coffers of the Realm).

    You lose access to your Courtier spellcasting, instead adding Ĺ your Courtier level to your levels in the selected class for determining caster level, spells known, spells per day, and what spell levels you have access to.

    Necropolitician:
    Not all courtiers focus on the living. In necropolises and kingdoms of the undead and their creators, courtiers sometimes turn to these same dark powers. Other times necromancers turn to the courtierís arts to lead vast armies of the undead.
    Prerequisites: Knowledge (Religion) 8+ ranks, Charnel Touch, Retainers.
    Benefits: You may replace any followers from Retainers and its improvements (Retinue, Horde of Servants, Leader of the Masses, True King) with skeletons that have Hit Dice equal to the level of the replaced follower or zombies with up to twice that many hit dice (the DM may choose to disallow specific creatures for these skeletons and zombies).

    You add your Dread Necromancer level to your Courtier level to gain access to the improvements to Retainers. In addition undead creatures can benefit from your Inspire Ally or Inspiring Words ability as if they were not morale bonuses (and thus mind-affecting).

    Once you reach 4th level in Courtier you lose your Courtier spellcasting ability and instead add half of your Courtier level to your Dread Necromancer level to determine caster level, spells per day, advanced learning, and spell levels accessed.

    Once you reach 8th level in Dread Necromancer you may add your Courtier levels to your Dread Necromancer levels to determine how many hit dice of undead you may control (you do not add your Courtier levels and then half again due to CL).

    Savage Emperor
    You rule by presence and might, trusting your passionate heart to attract others to you.
    Prerequisites: Ability to rage, Courtierís Talents (Intimidate), Retainers
    Benefit: You add your Barbarian level to your Courtier level to determine your Courtierís Talents and access to the improved stages of Retainers (Retinue, Horde of Followers, Leader of the Masses, and True King) abilities. However for any stage of Retainers you have access to due to barbarian levels you may only select followers from List I or if you could normally select those from improved lists you may also select barbarians.
    When raging you may make Charisma based checks as normal, add your Charisma to weapon damage, and when you Demoralize an enemy you may immediately attempt to Demoralize one additional enemy per 5 courtier levels these enemies must be within 30 ft of you.

    Sly Noble
    You use your noble status to reach your fingers straight into the heart of the criminal underworld as one of its nefarious puppet masters.
    Prerequisites: Revenue, Courtierís Talent (Bluff), Sneak Attack +2d6, Knowledge (Local) 5 ranks.
    Benefits: You may add your courtier levels to your rogue levels to determine your bonus damage from Sneak Attack.

    You may add your rogue levels to your courtier level to determine your bonus from Courtierís Talents and to gain access to Revenue and its improved versions (Greater Revenue, Overflowing Coffers, Coffers of the Realm).

    Words of Corruption:
    An evil courtier knows how to twists words and arguments so that the foolish not only see the courtier as their friend and confidant but also undermines their sense of morality, corrupting their sense of good and evil and perverting it.
    Prerequisites: Charisma 17+, Evil alignment, Greater Charming Words
    Benefits: If you use Greater Charming Words on a target and the effects is not removed before its duration ends (such as by an effect which grants a second save, or frees creatures from mind-affecting effects, etc) the targets attitude towards you improves by two steps (to a maximum of Friendly). In addition should the effect last at least 4 hours the targets alignment moves one step towards Evil.

    Words of Release:
    A courtierís words can do more than only stir friendship in the hearts of others, they can also spark a creatureís personality into a blaze when it has been suppressed by magical effects.
    Prerequisites: Charisma 15+, Charming Words.
    Benefits: You may expend a use of your Charming Words ability as a standard action to grant a single creature that can hear you a second save against any mind-affecting effect affecting them. The target may use the better of your or their own Will save. To affect a target it must be able to hear and understand your speech.
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2016-09-16 at 06:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    I really like this, it's a solid T3 mundane class in a field which was largely ruled by magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    [B]
    Words of Corruption:
    Prerequisites: Charisma 17+, Evil alignment, Greater Words of Friendship

    Words of Release:
    Prerequisites: Charisma 15+, Words of Friendship.
    You mean charming words?

    Also, profession should probably be on the skill list alongside craft. It encompasses all service industries aside from performance art, a region which includes things like lawyer, entrepreneur, etc.

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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Saidoro View Post
    I really like this, it's a solid T3 mundane class in a field which was largely ruled by magic.


    You mean charming words?

    Also, profession should probably be on the skill list alongside craft. It encompasses all service industries aside from performance art, a region which includes things like lawyer, entrepreneur, etc.
    Thank you, and thanks for the catch (Words of Friendship was what I called the ability in my notebook, but I changed it because Charming Words was more accurate).

    I'll think about Profession, and probably add it. I was already considering it (started when I made Clanheir) because of Profession (Merchant), but I didn't even think of Lawyer.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    First, realise that "3 martial weapons of their choice" essentially reads as "All martial weapons" for the purposes of most characters. I'd make them specific ones a courtier might have - longsword and rapier seem obvious choices. The picture of a courtier with a flail doesn't strike me as normal.

    Bonuses to caster level that don't require you to be the one doing it are an easy way to break things. This seems like it's going to end up with the courtier spending every turn inspiring the T1 caster.

    The Revenue ability seems to be covering things that most DMs seem to houserule off (or plain ignore). Greater revenue is better, though.

    I like the adaptations.

    Inspire action is OHMYGODWHYWOULDYOUDOTHISYOUJUSTBROKETHEACTIONECONO MYWHYWHYWHY. Seriously, everyone is now gonna want one of these as their cohort. Everyone.

    Also, nothing stopping ten courtiers using it on one guy. Leadership allows high-level characters to have level 5+ followers.

    The entire Retainers-True King chain, plus leadership, will allow you to get a small army without breaking stride. If any of your small army are courtiers, they have their own small army. Some of those might have their own army. Your armies' armies have armies. You have thousands of people at your command, even in low/no magic settings. No twentieth level fighter is going to withstand thousands of people firing crossbows at him every round (even with DR 10/-, he's going unconscious in the first round, and then all you need to do is get your man with a scythe to CdG the poor feller out of his misery. If you roll a 5 and are strength 12, you end up with a DC 34 fort or die. Every round.)

    Anyway, it is a good concept. There are just things that don't work.

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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Could you perhaps put the explanations in spoilers? The blue text is distracting and some of them are larger than the abilities they accompany, making it a large amount of text to go through.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    First, realise that "3 martial weapons of their choice" essentially reads as "All martial weapons" for the purposes of most characters. I'd make them specific ones a courtier might have - longsword and rapier seem obvious choices. The picture of a courtier with a flail doesn't strike me as normal.

    Bonuses to caster level that don't require you to be the one doing it are an easy way to break things. This seems like it's going to end up with the courtier spending every turn inspiring the T1 caster.

    The Revenue ability seems to be covering things that most DMs seem to houserule off (or plain ignore). Greater revenue is better, though.

    I like the adaptations.

    Inspire action is OHMYGODWHYWOULDYOUDOTHISYOUJUSTBROKETHEACTIONECONO MYWHYWHYWHY. Seriously, everyone is now gonna want one of these as their cohort. Everyone.

    Also, nothing stopping ten courtiers using it on one guy. Leadership allows high-level characters to have level 5+ followers.

    The entire Retainers-True King chain, plus leadership, will allow you to get a small army without breaking stride. If any of your small army are courtiers, they have their own small army. Some of those might have their own army. Your armies' armies have armies. You have thousands of people at your command, even in low/no magic settings. No twentieth level fighter is going to withstand thousands of people firing crossbows at him every round (even with DR 10/-, he's going unconscious in the first round, and then all you need to do is get your man with a scythe to CdG the poor feller out of his misery. If you roll a 5 and are strength 12, you end up with a DC 34 fort or die. Every round.)

    Anyway, it is a good concept. There are just things that don't work.
    I realized that about weapons (in fact 2, one for ranged and one for melee, generally covers it), but this way you pick up ones that are culturally important (a flail would be very common among the upper classes in a country devoted to Hextor, for example) while leaving you unable to pick up every random magical weapon that came along.

    Halved the CL bonus and removed the DC bonus altogether. CL is usually mainly involved in buffs and the duration of effects (so it's still a powerful option) while in combat it is usually of small consequence except to overcome SR (Black Tentacles is the exception I can think of off the top of my head).

    Inspire Action is... yeah problematic at high levels (at 1/encounter it is effectively White Raven Tactics), so I made it move or attack action only. Significantly worse than WRT now, but still lets you maneuver a fighter for a full attack while not just spamming casting. Mostly it does prevent the use of the 12 courtiers you could possibly get as followers doing this (nothing prevents Warblades and Crusaders with WRT but that's not my job).

    As for the number of followers. You don't pick their feats so no leadership chain except with Leadership proper. The fighter example is also flawed (partially because even with maximum followers the fighter survives 3 rounds) as the general rule of thumb is followers don't follow you into nearly suicidal situations (same thing DMs pull to stop the 135 magic missiles technique) and that this would quickly get you to have a lot of dead followers which then take the normal amount of time to recover. I might reduce the numbers, but in a non-low magic setting these followers will go boom and that's negating the fact that bringing in 3000 people requires so much time that the enemy has a chance to prepare and counterattack. You can't bring them into a high level dungeon crawl, a political army will be met with the same, and the use of a fighter in an infinite field is a situation so unreal as to be a useless example. Looking at some monsters from the DMG... the crossbow spam does little against a dragon (a CR 19 white dragon ignores more than 90% of your followers and the remaining average 5 rounds to kill it, and it kills more than 100 in a round), this is before such things as Greater Invisibility which renders your followers inconsequential in the combat. And this assumes you somehow got into infinite featureless plain combat with 3000+ soldiers, and ignores the dragon's Frightful Presence which quickly dismantles your whole army by flying overhead. Pit Fiends and other high level creatures also dismantle such an army with ease (especially actually pit fiends whose regeneration and Greater Teleport allows them to blink in invisible kill 40-ft radius, take a round of crossbows which deal scratch damage, teleport out again, and then repeat every few rounds until you don't have an army).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Could you perhaps put the explanations in spoilers? The blue text is distracting and some of them are larger than the abilities they accompany, making it a large amount of text to go through.
    Spoilered it.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    -stuff about leadership-
    You choose their class, so if they're in list 4 you can use other courtiers.

    Also, the crossbows were specifically for a low- or no-magic setting, so I don't know why they're fighting dragons - you'd use the missile spam for that.

    Finally, the fact that you can have thousands of people running around following you is honestly crazy anyway.

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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Try looking at the Courtier class from d20 Rokugan. It's not perfect but it has the right idea.

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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Do the amounts in follower increases from the various abilities stack? (Retainers = Leadership, Retinue = +1 x Leadership, Horde of Followers = +2 x Leadership, Leader of the Masses = +6 x Leadership, True King = +10 x Leadership, for a total of 20 times the amount of followers Leadership normally grants.)

    It's a good thing the class doesn't have Epic Leadership access or a cohort.

    Courtierís Talents doesn't mention how high the bonus actually is, but is implied to be half class level. (Well, it's said, but worded badly.)

    Greater Courtier's Talent: Keep in mind that the confused state includes attacking people randomly.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Reduced the numbers gained from Horde/Leader of the Masses/True King. Also reduced True King and Retinue to only Lv 1 commoners, experts, and warriors. Hopefully that helps some. I might actually reduce Horde and Leader of the Masses to only Lv 1 commoners, experts, and warriors as well, or do something more drastic (replace some of them with other abilities for example).

    Just rather (pleasantly) distracted at the moment so my brewing is slowing down. So I'll be thinking about it but everything is on the back burner for now.

    Also thank you both for the critiques.
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2013-10-02 at 02:31 PM.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Oh yeah finally got around to rewording Courtier's Talent (I apparently worded it differently than in my notes)

    On the topic of Greater Courtier's Talent, got any better suggestions for Bluff's? You hit on one of the reasons I dislike using Confusion, maybe I should figure out how to make it a single target illusion. Any suggestions?
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Personally, I tend to avoid (insert # here)/day abilities, especially with nonmagical abilities. For me, it breaks immersion that my barbarian is only able to get angry once per day. Makes very little sense. Instead, I like to have abilities be a) contingent on a certain effect or circumstance (when the berserker drops below 1/2 health, he flies into a blood rage for 1 minute or until the end of combat), b) have some drawback (blindly and indiscriminantly attack everything within reach, including allies, due to rage, and exhaustion at the end) that makes it something you only want to use when necessary, or c) have some resource involved (with ex abilities, maybe a class somehow gained poison attacks, but can only make a certain amount of poison in a set amount of time.) Also, if you you wish, you can take a look at the noble class in my signature. If you want to do stuff with the leadership feat, which you seem to be doing, you could check out the Commander as well. I don't know if you'll like what you see, just thought it might help you out a bit.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Amazing class flavour. i was wondering if you might make a spell-less version. I know that lowers the.

    I was thinking of a way of taking a more active ability that shows his huge wealth. I was thinking if you give them an extra dimensional Vault(s). I was thinking of an ability where it animates their gold/(wealth in general)

    I was thinking of decanter of water but with the Courtier's. Similar to the warlocks eldritch blast but with coins. The force destroys the coins so it can't be retrieved. I think it should be similar to a dragon's breath where the Coin Shoot has a recharge.

    I was thinking along the lines of of perhaps shaping the coins to a fist to grapple and such. I was thinking of Gaara from Naruto, but with coins rather sand.
    OR
    Perhaps if the coins things is a bit too silly I was thinking they could purchase some magical/magi-techie/extra planar gadgets. A temporary force field or maybe a quick laser blast. I want to suggest it goes from 1d3 up to 10d3's.

    I think it would be cool to be able to purchase abilities using your die.

    I was thinking of other abilities based on ways of making money. These abilities would be based on the money paths. Each path would have one passive and one activated ability.
    The Beggar
    The Merchant
    The Con Man
    The Thief
    The Tax Collector
    The Hoarder

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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    There is a spell-less one (based on one of the spell-less Paladin/Ranger variants) in adaptation under spells (it's labeled Low Magic).

    As for the other, there's a class in one of the Base Class Challenges (Change) called Squillionaire which might interest you.
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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Could there perhaps be a Martial Adept adaptation? To show a Courtier from such a background where it is the norm for nobility to be practiced in the martial arts, in superiority to the fist-swinging common rabble?

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    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    I'll try to whip something up real fast. Check back in 1-2 hours.

    Martial Courtier
    {table=head]Level|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances
    4|2|1|0
    5|3|1|0
    6|4|1|1
    7|4|2|1
    8|4|2|1
    9|5|2|1
    10|5|2|1
    11|5|3|1
    12|6|3|2
    13|6|3|2
    14|6|3|2
    15|7|4|2
    16|7|4|2
    17|7|4|2
    18|8|4|3
    19|8|5|3
    20|8|5|3[/table]

    A martial courtier gains maneuvers from the Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, and White Raven disciplines, and may recover all of their expended maneuvers as a full round action (they may not also use a maneuver that turn).

    At any level in which a martial courtier does not learn a new maneuver they may exchange one of their old maneuvers for a new one of any level they may learn. Levels in Martial courtier add fully for their Initiator level with courtier maneuvers.

    The levels they gain maneuvers do not sync up perfectly with the levels they gain new levels of maneuvers but the ability to exchange maneuvers should mitigate the damage there. More importantly the stances don't match up, but... they get 8th level stances before swordsages More seriously while they lack a 1st level maneuver they gain 3rd, 6th (most disciplines have 5th but some have 6th), and an 8th when they have 9th level maneuvers which would theoretically serve as a handicap for getting these instead of spells except that swordsages get maneuvers at 14th and 20th meaning they miss the 8th level stance till 20th unless they burn a feat .

    I contemplated leaving their IL at 1/2 class level, and am still uncertain on it, but decided to go with fewer maneuvers of higher level, which might be a mistake as they can still get 3 9th level maneuvers.
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2014-03-10 at 07:32 PM.
    Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.

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  18. - Top - End - #18
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: Courtier (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

    Oh goodness, a speedier reply than I was expecting.

    To solve that issue, perhaps turn the chart around? Have the maneuvers start at 1st level (as a nod to being raised with the training), but cap at 16th? Preventing the learning of what might be considered "Grand martial secrets" that would only be available to those who invested all their time into the pursuit.

    I'm not entirely sure what that would do off-hand, and I don't think I've seen it done before. But it seems to make sense from a fluff standpoint to my mind.

    Edit: I also think starting with a stance might be prudent, even if a second doesn't become available for a few levels because of it. A number of disciplines seem to not properly work without a stance. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Dimmet; 2014-03-11 at 11:04 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Courtier (Base Class, PEACH)

    Very, Very sorry about the Thread Necro post(sorry!) but I am playing this class at the moment and figured I'd comment at least once. As well as add an idea for the name of the "Court Criminal" feat, perhaps "Sly Aristocrat" would suit?
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  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Zaydos's Avatar

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    Default Re: Courtier (Base Class, PEACH)

    Sly Noble works. Better than Court Criminal at least.
    Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.

    Current Projects:

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