OOTS #921 - The Discussion Thread

[Leolo]

: Bards can't BE Lawful.

There are options to allow this - and of course he could have become lawfull later, after he grabbed all this "the story has to be in order!" stuff. And used a prestige class to level up higher.

Although i admit that bard is just an option of many. My main point was more that obviously Tarquin has not shown all of his abilities until now, at least not according to Malack. It is entirely possible that he pulls out a scroll of XYZ and uses UMD, for example.

Or has a class or prestigeclass that grants him other abilities, maybe spells. It would be just odd that after all what we have seen from him he would be just a singleclass fighter. In the OOTS world most of the time the class selection does says something about the character. Even if you think about needlessly complicated characters like nale.

[derfenrirwolv]

Biology reference ftw.

[Niveus Candidus]

The theme of villainous relationships with their children continues. Also, the Order is in luck--the baddies still aren't taking them seriously as a potential threat to their current or future existence.

[RMS Oceanic]

I have a feeling that Miron and Laurin will play no further part in this fight, for the reasons they have stated. I do think however Tarquin may decide to intervene personally to add the personal "you killed my mentor!" touch he's looking for, and that may be his mistake.

[SlashDash]

I liked the original "oh right" better
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html

But yeah, still awsome the way it goes. I highly doubt they'll just make a random flight escape. After all, the soldiers can just shoot down their mounts.
And Roy and falling damage isn't a good combo

In fact I'll find it really weird if this fight will be over before another exchange between Elan and his dad. The way his party members remind him that he is becoming obsessed is something that will either undo him (get him killed) or cause him to have a reflection and pause things over (even if it might take a couple of more strips and someone else to point that out to him).

Also, it would seem odd how the order would manage to get to the next gate without Tarquin's help. As it has been made crystal clear over and over again, V can't teleport (without selling his\her soul).

And the order still needs a serious beefing up montage to have a chance against Xykon. We're down to the last gate and I doubt Rich would do the same skull into gate joke again.

[DeliaP]

Rampant insane speculation time:

Spoiler

Show

Laurin's adopted daughter=Redcloak's missing niece!!!

OK, nah, not really. Actually I like the reference to Helen being a plumber (like Inkyrius being a baker) as the Giant pointing out that, actually, most people won't be adventurers or have PC class levels.

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)

[Everyl]

OK, nah, not really. Actually I like the reference to Helen being a plumber (like Inkyrius being a baker) as the Giant pointing out that, actually, most people won't be adventurers or have PC class levels.

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)

Leap several times their own height, vertically, use common floral blossoms to hurl fireballs, and pretty much anything else it takes to rescue the princess from King Koopa this week.

That was an easy one!

[DaggerPen]

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)

Edit: Crap. Took too long to find the picture.

[snikrept]

It's becoming clearer why they chose Malack to partner with Tarquin. The others probably got a bit fed up with his "story nonsense" over the course of an adventuring career.

Tarquin is upset his teammates aren't wading in spells blazing. BUt he's not doing it either, even though he proved he can take the OOTS solo before. Maybe he thinks fighting the battle himself will screw up the story he has planned?

[Liliet]

Still possible that he is a bard. He is genre savy, has high charisma, thinks that bards are "underpowered" for not ruling the universe and Malack told him to stop playing with the order when he was fighting them. So it seems that there is more he could do.

Or that he has some other spellcasting class. (Maybe a multiclassing combination like those of nale - just effective?)

I thought he was Roy's counterpart, high-Int high-Cha fighter?

He is able to play Thog's "big brute melee" role. I'm not sure bard would do that.

For all I understand about DnD power balance, melee-focused bard is a horrible build, something Tarkie would never do if he's halfway as intelligent and Genre-Savvy as he looks.

I'm actually pretty intrigued by what Tarquin is saying in the first panel. Yes, all you're doing is making Roy look more badass... which is exactly how this should work if (since) Roy and not Elan is the primary protagonist.

Do you think Tarquin is capable of listening to himself enough to figure that out? It seems like it would be the absolute perfect and poetic way to begin, at least, his defeat; let his own genre savviness clue him in to the fact that he is NOT the Big Bad but just an auxiliary villain in a much larger story. Crushing.

Or: is he just too utterly blind to any story other than the one he's telling himself? Even the fact he's said it out loud won't make a dent; he could never imagine such a thing, much less believe it? Or maybe he'll have the same realization later but only because Elan will force him to (probably the most satisfying, narrative-wise)?

HMMMM.

He hasn't figured it out yet, so I think... no. He won't do so on his own. Although I do want him to. Most probably it will be Elan... nah, I dunno. But it's a very interesting question.

Rampant insane speculation time:

Spoiler

Show

Laurin's adopted daughter=Redcloak's missing niece!!!

OK, nah, not really. Actually I like the reference to Helen being a plumber (like Inkyrius being a baker) as the Giant pointing out that, actually, most people won't be adventurers or have PC class levels.

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)

THAT WOULD BE EPIC. Although the Evil team being less racist than the Good team is kinda weird... which was the fuel for the "Good Evil Overlord" genre I like... Seriously, it would be epic.

And an Epic Plumber is, obviously, an inventor and a head of a corporation.

[Leolo]

Funny thing: If Tarquins suggestion ("why don't you cast your spells on them?") would have worked he would have stepped back and let the other members of his group did the real work. Just like Elan.

Maybe he could have supported them in this case? ^^

[Leolo]

I thought he was Roy's counterpart, high-Int high-Cha fighter?

He is able to play Thog's "big brute melee" role. I'm not sure bard would do that.

For all I understand about DnD power balance, melee-focused bard is a horrible build, something Tarkie would never do if he's halfway as intelligent and Genre-Savvy as he looks.

Looks like it is really difficult to say what class tarquin is. He is genre savvy, so something that is attached to this would match (Bard does this for elan, but tarquin would have to be a lawfull bard or ex-bard), but also a good melee fighter (ok - possible with the right prestige classes or high level plus items) and has learned to defend against many strange attack forms (blocked elans puns)

But as said above - i just wanted to say that we don't really know what it is that he has not used until now. Malack said Tarquin was playing with the order and we have seen him having always one more good card in his sleeve. UMD plus a Scroll looks like something that would match his character very well. But also some kind of prestige class or the like.

[Krim]

I read that as being both physically and otherwise away from all this - she did say she wanted a 'good life' for her daughter. I figured the job for the Weeping Key was a one-off, because it would help her daughter's career. But living anywhere near any of the ruled kingdoms isn't what most people would consider 'a good life' and Laurin seems smart enough to know that, which is why I read her as I did.

I am going to disagree with you on that. The Empire of Tears can be a *very* good place to live if you happen to side with the right people and you mother is personal adviser to the Queen. I am sure Hannah has a fairly comfortable life, if not outright luxury.

That said, it is quite dangerous, and hence, Laurin's desire to keep her away is perfectly justified.

Laurin could be either Pragmatic Evil - I get what I want for me and my friends and screw anyone else-, or Neutral - I make the most of the situation, do not seek to hurt others, but if someone gets hurt, tough luck-

[Nachoman_Randy]

Looks like it is really difficult to say what class tarquin is. He is genre savvy, so something that is attached to this would match (Bard does this for elan, but tarquin would have to be a lawfull bard or ex-bard), but also a good melee fighter (ok - possible with the right prestige classes or high level plus items) and has learned to defend against many strange attack forms (blocked elans puns)

But as said above - i just wanted to say that we don't really know what it is that he has not used until now. Malack said Tarquin was playing with the order and we have seen him having always one more good card in his sleeve. UMD plus a Scroll looks like something that would match his character very well. But also some kind of prestige class or the like.

He is like Roy. Single class fighter 17-20. Thats is lots of feats. Also, just like Roy he have his mental attributes balanced. His genre savy could be knowledge (literature)

EDIT: Funny enough he is Roy True Evil Opposite, or at least what Roy could be if he was evil. I think Tarquin is going to figure it out soon and maybe take it well.

[Messenger]

With Miron talking and being confirmed as a caster, I wonder what kind. Based on his dialogue here and in 915, he doesn't seem to be a wizard as far as they're depicted in the OotS-verse as being very intellectual (from V to Eugene to Archmage Fyron to Professor Xavion). Of course, he could just be playing against type. He could be some sort of Divine spellcaster, but would be a little redundant next to Malack. A sorcerer perhaps? Any other possibilities?

[Leolo]

He is like Roy. Single class fighter 17-20. Thats is lots of feats. Also, just like Roy he have his mental attributes balanced. His genre savy could be knowledge (literature)

EDIT: Funny enough he is Roy True Evil Opposite, or at least what Roy could be if he was evil. I think Tarquin is going to figure it out soon and maybe take it well.

Roy already had an evil opposite - as seen in his last fight with Thog where he pretended not to have anything in common with Thog. And still had so much in common with him.

But the point is more: Most classes in OOTS does affect the character of the protagonists. For example nale is not only needlessly complicated - his class selection was needlessly complicated, too. Same is true for haley - being a rogue does affected her character and she needed time to overcome this. Something her father has not done until now. And while Roy does have decent intelligence and wisdom he lacked the charisma (and genre savvyness) to be able to hire a group.

Tarquin's genre savvyness is so important for the character that it would be odd if it is not a very fundamental part of his build. And he did looked good to haley, much like Elan (indicating high charisma? He certainly has it).

And he used diplomacy and bluff a lot, both fighter cross class skill. And both his sons where casters.

[Kish]

It implies that Laurin's motivations for engaging in the activity she engages in for Tarquin is not because she enjoys what she's doing. She's doing it for someone else in order to help that other person. Whether that involves her outright disapproval or merely a desire to keep her own child safe, it shows us that Laurin isn't in it for love of the game.

I have to wonder how much power she thinks she needs to do whatever she wants to do for Hannah. She is--unless Tarquin is completely deluded--one of the six most powerful people on the continent now. If she really thinks life in a shifting-allegiances "We have always been at war with the Empire of Blood" dictatorship would be better than somewhere she could set up her daughter right now physically far away from Tarquin's schemes...

[Nachoman_Randy]

Roy already had an evil opposite - as seen in his last fight with Thog where he pretended not to have anything in common with Thog. And still had so much in common with him.

But the point is more: Most classes in OOTS does affect the character of the protagonists. For example nale is not only needlessly complicated - his class selection was needlessly complicated, too. Same is true for haley - being a rogue does affected her character and she needed time to overcome this. Something her father has not done until now. And while Roy does have decent intelligence and wisdom he lacked the charisma (and genre savvyness) to be able to hire a group.

Tarquin's genre savvyness is so important for the character that it would be odd if it is not a very fundamental part of his build. And he did looked good to haley, much like Elan (indicating high charisma? He certainly has it).

And he used diplomacy and bluff a lot, both fighter cross class skill.

High intelligence and charisma can make his bluff and diplomacy checks easier. Able learner (cross class skill cost only 1 point) and persuasive (+2intimidate, bluff) could be a good choice as well (he got feats to spare). Don't forget age category adds to your mental stats too, so thats another bonus.


To me Tarquin build (feats, stats, skills) seems like an unothodox fighter build wich is effective, unlike Nales. I belive he is single classed, just using some feats and skill points not only for combat but for rp as well (just like a PC choosing one of the skill based feats like persuasive) Could explain why he do so well in his life (in oots not everyone reachs the level of power Team Tarquin did).

The fun part is that I think he wanted to be a hero at first, maybe when he was married to Elans mom, but choosed to be a villian instead at some point of his life.

[Nachoman_Randy]

I have to wonder how much power she thinks she needs to do whatever she wants to do for Hannah. She is--unless Tarquin is completely deluded--one of the six most powerful people on the continent now. If she really thinks life in a shifting-allegiances "We have always been at war with the Empire of Blood" dictatorship would be better than somewhere she could set up her daughter right now physically far away from Tarquin's schemes...

I think Laurin just want her daughter not to be either and adventurer or a evil politician.

I think thats what she meant.

[Kish]

And only now did I notice the bags under Miron's eyes. It sometimes seemed like only Tarquin was old (and let's not get caught in the details with Malack). But Laurin's hair is turning gray. Makes me wonder about Jacinda and the other fighter (is he a fighter?) in the group.

Malack said that they're all past the prime of their "short lives."

He could be an ex-bard after an alignment change..?

Does Tarquin really strike you as someone who ever considered any viewpoint that wasn't totally Lawful Evil? Because I sure don't think so.

I think Laurin just want her daughter not to be either and adventurer or a evil politician.

I think thats what she meant.

And so what exactly does Laurin expect to be able to do for her in the future that she can't do for her right now?

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but could they use those pterodactyls to fly through the rift and across the ocean you could see on the other side?

Also is the reason Belkar is supposed to die is because he'll be staying in the Rift World as part of the final battle?

There's been no indications divinations work in there has there?

[Jane_Doe]

Hm. So, no secret plan or anything, Tarquin really is just a staggeringly incompetent commander whose access to a long-lost treasure hoard enabled him to drown his enemies in mercenaries. This really casts Malack's statement regarding Tarquin's affinity for strategies of attrition in a new light for me.

On a separate note, it seems to me that Nale's inability to know when to keep his mouth shut might have prevented Tarquin's team from breaking apart; it really feels like Tarquin is "first amongst equals" (if that; we may well be overestimating his importance simply because he and Malack are the only ones we've seen for any meaningful length of time, and he has such a big personality), so to speak, as opposed to being their leader in any proper sense. Based on the little we've seen of their dynamics, it really doesn't feel like he could convince them to let Nale join after killing their friend - possibly not even after failing to claim the gate, even. Perhaps he's a lot more persuasive when the stakes are higher and he's not watching a battle... But I'm reasonably certain that every time we've seen Tarquin trying to persuade someone to do something, it's been by offering them something of value to them in return for doing what he wants. He's actually a bit of a jerk when he's not being funny and charming, so I get the impression that he's really not all that good at getting people to do things they're not already inclined to do. He can't just bribe his teammates into letting Nale join them, and they knew Nale joining would be a terrible idea. Tarquin wouldn't let them kill him if he wouldn't kill Nale himself, so... It really all might have blown up, in my opinion. Amusing, in a way; like every other thing Nale wanted, if he'd been just a little less of a dysfunctional person, he could have properly undone his father as he wanted.

Unintentional conclusion from all of this; Tarquin is a spoiled rich kid, all grown up . Throw a bit of daddy's money at it, and everything goes your way .

[Sith_Happens]

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears.

Or the possibility that she thinks her mother is a well-connected, high level Psion interior designer. Psionic Fabricate is a thing, after all.

[Mauve Shirt]

OH yeah. I can't wait til my wizard's high level enough to make the party go "Oh right. Wizard."

[Leolo]

The "Tarquin is not the leader" theorie does lacks an explaination why all are doing his plan. Sure, Miron might want money from this and the psion stability. But there are other ways for this. Plus - the good party in 816 called their opponents "Tarquin and his party".

So his role in the party does seem exceptional - just not that exceptional to order them arround.

[Leolo]

High intelligence and charisma can make his bluff and diplomacy checks easier. Able learner (cross class skill cost only 1 point) and persuasive (+2intimidate, bluff) could be a good choice as well (he got feats to spare). Don't forget age category adds to your mental stats too, so thats another bonus.

Yes...could be possible. But how did he come to learn how to defend against elans puns? This does sound like some kind of prestige class (maybe dashing swordsman?)

And he does raised nale to make his "Dun, Dun, Dun" for him. ^^

And fights as well with a dagger as with an axe. (so his damage seems to come from a different source?)

Hard to say. Maybe we will learn more soon, if Tarquin does really try to fight the order again and kill roy.

[Niveus Candidus]

With Miron talking and being confirmed as a caster, I wonder what kind. Based on his dialogue here and in 915, he doesn't seem to be a wizard as far as they're depicted in the OotS-verse as being very intellectual (from V to Eugene to Archmage Fyron to Professor Xavion). Of course, he could just be playing against type. He could be some sort of Divine spellcaster, but would be a little redundant next to Malack. A sorcerer perhaps? Any other possibilities?

She casts from her head, not her hands--Psionics.

[Kish]

She casts from her head, not her hands--Psionics.

Either you have seen at least one scene none of the rest of us have that reveals a lot of surprising things about Miron Shewdanker...

...or you need to reread the post you just replied to.

[Red_Boulder]

"I think I'm just making Greenhilt look more badass."

"You want Greenhilt Dude dead,..."

"...that splashy butt-washing thing..."

What amazing dialogue from villains! Truly it shows their intellect when villains use words like "dude," and "butt-washing." I totally believe these morons ran a shadow government for multiple decades without getting caught.

Also Bald McStupidBlueScarf earns major points in my book for telling Tarquin to shut the **** up about his stupid meta crap.

[Yendor]

I'd file Laurin's motivations under "yeah, right, whatever helps you sleep at night", or if I was feeling particularly uncharitable, alongside Tarquin's concept of "gifts" that includes burning slaves and forcing best friends to fight to the death.

I have to wonder how much power she thinks she needs to do whatever she wants to do for Hannah. She is--unless Tarquin is completely deluded--one of the six most powerful people on the continent now. If she really thinks life in a shifting-allegiances "We have always been at war with the Empire of Blood" dictatorship would be better than somewhere she could set up her daughter right now physically far away from Tarquin's schemes...

Well, five now.