Defenses Overhaul (PEACH,WIP)

[Plato Play-Doh]

This thread seeks to overhaul the way the defense system works in 3.5 DnD. It changes the hit/miss method of the armor class based system and replaces it with three new ways of deterring attacks. These new rule sets emphasize tactical thinking, versatility, and teamwork. These rules may work best in a setting that focuses on low magic characters, but should fit well into the original version of 3.5. Below are the following changes to the defenses, including the news rules, new armor types and feat changes/additions.

Actions of Opportunity
The most important rule of the defenses overhaul are Actions of Opportunity (AoO). Actions of Opportunity are the basis of how creatures defend themselves and perform actions in combat. To put them into mechanical terms. AoO's incorporate Attacks of Opportunity, Defensive Maneuvers and Counter-Attacks.

Unless otherwise stated, a character can perform a number of AoO's in a round equal to (their highest base attack bonus / 4) plus their DEX modifier. For example, an 8th level fighter with a DEX of 12 (+1 modifier) has three AoO's in a round.

Armor
There is no more armor class to determine how difficult you are to hit. Instead, armor gives you damage reduction (here after referred to as Armor Rating). Three things contribute to armor rating, they are; Armor, Natural Armor, and Deflection bonus. Any numerical bonus (or penalty) to either of these directly affects the armor rating. Any damage taken is reduced by the amount of armor rating the creatures has.

However, certain types of attacks or materials can be better or worse at over coming armor rating. For more information about about over coming armor rating, and for info on the new armor types, see [here].

It is important to note, that the max dexterity bonus of certain armors do not affect your armor rating or any of your defensive maneuvers. It does, however, limit the amount of bonus AoO's a character can receive from their DEX bonus. The armor check penalty from armor applies to defensive maneuvers.

Defensive Maneuvers

Blocking
One of the ways a character or creature may protect themselves is by blocking with a shield. To do so, they must have a shield readied in one of their hands. When a creature with a shield is attacked, they may spend one AoO in order to block the full-attack of a creature. The creature attempting to block makes an opposed attack roll against each attack from their attacker. If they exceed the attack roll of the attacker, they successfully block the attack, negating all damage. The blocker may use their full BaB when blocking, -5 for every block attempt against the same creature for that round.

On a successful block, the attacker immediately makes a sunder attempt against the shield, which automatically hits. In this way, shields can break in combat. Effects that would normally cause Insight, Morale or Luck bonuses to armor class, now give bonuses to blocking.

Dodging
To avoid damage completely, a creature may attempt to dodge a blow that would otherwise cause them serious harm. To do this, the dodger must spend an AoO. Then attempt a reflex save, Modifiers like Size, Insight, Morale, Dodge and Luck bonuses, that normally affect armor class, affect dodge.


Parrying
A creature can attempt to deflect an attack made against them by using their weapon. To do so, the creature attempting the parry must have either made use of the combat expertise feat, fought defensively, or use the total defense action, and spends one AoO. They make an opposed attack roll against the creature attacking them. If they exceed the attacker's roll, they successfully negate all damage from that attack. Insight, Morale and Luck bonuses that would normally apply to armor class, are applied to parrying.

In addition, the creature who is parrying takes a -4 penalty against attacks from a creature 1 size category larger than them and from weapons meant for a creature 1 size category larger than them (i.e Human wielding large greatsword via Monkey Grip (CW) feat). They can not attempt a parry against a creature (or weapon meant for a creature) either 2 size categories smaller or larger than them.

Parrying with a light weapon incurs a -4 penalty to the parry roll. However, some special light weapons (like the sai or parrying dagger), negate this penalty. Some weapons allow a counter maneuver to be performed as an immediate action upon a successful parry. (For instance, the sai can immediately make a disarm attempt).


Miscellaneous (Important information, suggested to read).

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a. It is possible to attempt to parry, shield block, and dodge the same attack. Choose what you want to do first, and if that fails, you may attempt another at a -2 penalty. If that fails, you may attempt the third at a -4 penalty. Each of these expends actions of opportunity as normal.
b. Failing to hit, either by being dodged, shield blocked, or parried, or by having the DR of armor completely nullify your damage, provokes an attack of opportunity.
c. If parrying while dual-wielding or multi-wielding, may attack with a weapon other than the one you used to parry for this attack of opportunity. Normal attack penalties apply, but doing this does not count as a use of an action of opportunity from the target that you missed, so long as it was a melee attack.
d. The dodge bonuses provided by fighting defensively or the total defense action also apply to parrying and shield blocking.
e. Cover and concealment give +4 to reflex saves, total concealment gives +8. Disregard the other bonuses of concealment and cover, but total concealment and total cover still provide immunity to being targeted as normal. When attacked, a reflex save is automatically made, that only takes into account cover, concealment, and luck bonuses, and which is considered to have "taken zero". This requires no action.
f. Attacks from total concealment cannot be blocked dodged or parried unless the target has the Blind Fight feat or similar ability.
g. Creatures in flight with perfect maneuverability get +4 to dodge. With good maneuverability, they have +2 to dodge. Average maneuverability has no modifier, but creatures with poor maneuverability get -2 to dodge while flying, and creatures with clumsy maneuverability get -4.
h. All creatures gain additional actions of opportunity each round equal to their dexterity modifier.
i. When attempting to sunder an item that is carried, but not a weapon or shield, normal sunder rules apply, (i.e, you get an AoO if you want). The item is entitled to a free Dodge attempt. The Dodge bonus is equal to the carrier's dodge bonus, however use the item's size modifier when calculating the total dodge bonus. Alternatively, instead of using their Action of Opportunity to attack their opponent, they may use it to defend the item that is being sundered. They may use any of the three defenses they are able to do, and they follow the normal rules for these actions. On a successful defense, the sunder is cancelled, if not, then the sunder attempt continues as normal. If the attacker has the Improved Sunder feat, then the defender may not attempt to defend the item, just like they can not perform a regular attack of opportunity. taking either Action of Opportunity (attacking or defending) uses up one of the character's Action of Opportunity for the round.
j. The morningstar is now considered a martial weapon, and has d6 damage instead of d8 (d4 for small characters).

Feat Changes

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All of these feats may be taken as fighter bonus feats.

Combat Reflexes
Prerequisites: base attack bonus +4
Benefit: Gain one additional action of opportunity each round.
Special: May take this feat more than once. Each additional time adds 4 to the base attack bonus prerequisite.

Cleave
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Str 13
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. If you break a creature's shield, you may make an immediate, extra attack against that creature. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Armor Focus
Prerequisites: Proficiency with chosen armor type.
Benefit: Choose one armor type (light, medium, or heavy). You may ignore up to 2 armor penetration when wearing that type of armor.

Improved Armor Focus
Prerequisites: Armor Focus, proficiency with chosen armor type.
Benefit: Armor of the type chosen with armor focus gives an additional 1 DR.

Shield Focus
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency
Benefit: You gain +1 to rolls made to block with a shield.

Improved Shield Focus
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency, Shield Focus
Benefit: You gain + 1 to rolls made to block with a shield. This bonus increases to +2 while fighting defensively, and +4 with the total defense action.

Greater Shield Bash
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Strength 16, BAB +6
Benefit: When you shield bash, the target is rendered incapable of blocking, dodging, or parrying the next attack made against them before the beginning of their next turn.

Improved Parry
Prerequisites: base attack bonus +5, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: You no longer need to be fighting defensively in order to parry.

Shield Tactic: Nick of Time
Prerequisites: Shield Focus, Improved Parry, or Lightning Reflexes; base attack bonus +1
Benefit: If a block roll is failed by five or less, you may still block half of the damage you receive. Shields take half sunder damage.

Power Attack
Prerequisites: Strength 13
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all attack rolls and reflex saves, and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Counter Maneuver: Tactical Dodge
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4, Dexterity 14
Benefit:Whenever you succeed on a Dodge attempt, as an Action of Opportunity you can move 5ft as an immediate action. If the enemy is using the full attack action against you, you move 5 ft after they make all of their attacks for the round. This takes place before you make your Attack of Opportunity for succeeding on your Dodge.
Special: If you have Spring Attack, you can make your Attack of Opportunity for succeeding on your dodge, then move your 5ft (Assuming you have enough Actions of Opportunity)

Combat Expertise
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13
Benefit: When you fight defensively, you instead take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a bonus to dodging, parrying, and blocking. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and defenses last until your next action.

Armor Piercing
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (Any Crossbow Type), Point Blank Shot, Dexterity 14, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: When firing at a target that is subjected to your point blank shot, you can make one shot with a crossbow that you have weapon focus with that completely bypasses the enemy's DR from armor or natural armor, but not DR that is not from natural armor or armor.

Sunder Armor
Enemy armor is less imposing to you.
Prerequisite: Power Attack, Improved Sunder
Benefit: Instead of sundering a weapon or a shield, you may target an opponents armor. This follows the same rules as sundering a shield or weapon, but instead of damaging the armor's HP, you reduce the DR of your opponent by 2. The damage can be repaired with a DC 15 Craft check with a craft skill relevant to that type of armor, but not in combat.
Special: This maneuver can only be done against creatures who have an armor bonus to DR. Natural and Deflection bonuses are unaffected. ..

Alternate Block Rule (Shields Don't Break)

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Shield Block: By spending 1 AoO, a creature holding a shield can attempt to block incoming attacks from one target. The creature with the shield makes an opposed attack roll for each attack. If he exceeds the attacker's roll, he successfully blocks the attack, reducing the damage he takes by the amount of absorption of his shield. Any excess damage is still inflicted to the defender as bludgeoning damage, which can still be reduced further by the creature's armor rating (if any). The amount of attacks a creature can block by using 1 AoO is equal to the amount of times they can make in a full attack.

You may not block an attack from behind, or from the side you carry your weapon if you have attacked, (or if you blocked an attack) that round. If you block an attack from behind or your weapon side, you (or your shield arm) now face that direction.

Shields have an absorption rating. This is the amount of damage they can absorb from a given attack. The absorption rating of shields is shown below. Add any enhancement bonus a shield has to its absorption rating.

{table=head] Shields* | Cost | Absorption | Max Dex | Armor Check Penalty | Arcane Spell Failure | Speed | Weight
Buckler** | 15 gp | 5 | - | -1 | 5% | - | 5lb
Light | 3 gp | 5 | - | -1 | 5% | - | 5lb
Heavy | 7 gp | 10 | - | -2 | 15% | - | 10lb
Tower | 30 gp | 20 | 2 | -10 | 50% | - | 45lb[/table]

* Shields listed are assumed to be wooden, for details on special materials and steel shields, see the below table.

** Bucklers can not be made of anything other than wood or darkwood.

Materials

{table=head] Material | Absorption Bonus | Weight*
Wood | +0 | As Listed
Darkwood | +0 | Half of Wooden
Steel | +5 | +5lb
Mithril | +5 | Half of Steel
Adamantium | +10 | +10lb[/table]

* Tower shields have their weight increases by double the amount listed on this table.

What do you think?

[TheFamilarRaven]

So, in return for PEACHing my Havoc Knight I shall PEACH your overhaul. where these rules would add variation to combat, rather then the players saying "I swing ax"

That being said I have a few comments.

Part I: Armor

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a. Dex, Insight, Dodge, Luck, and Shield bonuses no longer apply to AC.
b. Any spell that gives a shield bonus to AC now gives a deflection bonus instead to AC.
c. Subtract 10 from this AC score, and characters now have that amount of damage reduction.
d. Light Armor’s armor rating is doubled against bludgeoning attacks, and halved against slashing attacks.
f. Heavy Armor’s armor rating is halved against bludgeoning attacks.
g. Heavy armor’s max dex rating instead is a limit on the number of times one can take an action of opportunity in a round.

Seems fine. Just a few things. What about piercing attacks? Because you only mention slashing and bludgeoning. re-read for simple typo fixes, also, maybe provide an example so there no room for confusion. Something like this.
Fullplate has an AC bonus of +8, so 10 (base AC) +8 = 18 AC total ... -10 = a total of 8 DR
Also, do you mean damage reduction when you say Armor rating, or do you mean Armor Class?

Part II: Dodging

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a. Instead of using AC, a creature or character may make a reflex save to completely negate a nonmagical attack.
b. This is considered an action of opportunity, and thus counts against the total number of attacks of opportunity each round. This also means that the feat Combat Reflexes, and similar effects, increase the number of times a creature or character may dodge each round.
c. Dodge bonuses and insight bonuses to AC now apply to reflex instead.

Be specific with the reflex DC. I am assuming the DC is = to the attack roll. so on an attack roll of 18 (which would hit our example character), a reflex save of 18 or higher would negate all the damage. other than that I like it.

Part III: Blocking

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a. When holding a shield and fighting defensively, a character may make a melee attack with that shield to block a melee attack as an action of opportunity.
b. Should they succeed, the attack is turned into a sunder attempt on the shield, which automatically hits. Ranged sunder attempts are possible under these conditions, but receive -2 to their damage.
c. Using the total defense action allows the character to automatically succeed on their block attempt.
d. Instead of losing the buckler’s shield bonus, the buckler is unable to be used to block until you next turn if you use a weapon two-handed with it.

I really like this variant, because this is pretty much how people fought in medieval warfare. Shield were used and broke often in the heat of battle.
just a few things. This may require the hitpoints and hardness to go way up, because blocking any attack at higher levels will guarantee the shield to break on the first or second block ... but maybe not, I know magic items increase in hardness and hitpoints and I don't have many players sundering shield often enough to give you a good estimate. However ...

I don't think should you need to be fighting defensively in order to use a Block Action of Opportunity. Because that's a -4 to all your attacks for that round, for a +2 bonus to your Blocking and parrying rolls. My reasoning is, if you brought a shield to a fight, you're going to be ready to use it if you have it out ... you don't need to "focus" on defense in order to block.
c) Maybe give a decent bonus to the block attempt when using full defense, but an instant block I don't feel is very exciting.

Also, same as Dodging, you might want to specify that the opposing block roll must equal or exceed the attack role.

Part IV: Parrying

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a. Characters may parry any melee attack with a weapon by making an attack roll with a melee weapon as an attack of opportunity.
b. Should they succeed, all damage from the attack is negated.
c. Natural weapons cannot be used to parry.

This one is iffy, because it diminishes the value of blocking. Why should I bring a shield when I can just use a greatsword and parry "any melee" attack, without having to fight defensively? granted i can't deflect arrows, but longbows don't seem too bad when I have a DR of 8 from my fullplate, and my weapon takes no damage from a sunder attempt. (Also, I'm assuming you meant to write Action of Opportunity, rather than Attack of Opportunity...)

Here's some suggestions.
-Make THIS the ability that requires fighting defensively
- When attempting a parry, you take a -4 penalty for every size category larger your opponent is from you.
-You cannot parry an attack from a creature 2 or less size categories smaller than you
-Again, specify that the parry role must = or exceed the attack roll

Part V: Misc

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a. It is possible to attempt to parry, shield block, and dodge the same attack. Choose what you want to do first, and if that fails, you may attempt another at a -2 penalty. If that fails, you may attempt the third at a -4 penalty. Each of these expends actions of opportunity as normal.
b. Failing to hit, either by being dodged, shield blocked, or parried, or by having the DR of armor completely nullify your damage, provokes an attack of opportunity.
c. If parrying and dual-wielding or multi-wielding, may attack with a weapon other than the one you used to parry for this attack of opportunity. Normal attack penalties apply, but doing this does not count as a use of an action of opportunity.
d. The dodge bonuses provided by fighting defensively or the total defense action also apply to parrying and shield blocking.

I might put these notes at the beginning, or at least remind readers to read these first, because I almost posted something completely incorrect before I reread this passage.

What do you think?

^^ all of the above statements that's what!

But in all seriousness, I like these changes. I can actually see myself implementing them in a more martial focused campaign, where spellcasting classes would be extremely rare, and maybe not even available to the PC's.

good rules

[Plato Play-Doh]

So, in return for PEACHing my Havoc Knight I shall PEACH your overhaul. where these rules would add variation to combat, rather then the players saying "I swing ax"

That being said I have a few comments.



Seems fine. Just a few things. What about piercing attacks? Because you only mention slashing and bludgeoning. re-read for simple typo fixes, also, maybe provide an example so there no room for confusion. Something like this.
Fullplate has an AC bonus of +8, so 10 (base AC) +8 = 18 AC total ... -10 = a total of 8 DR
Also, do you mean damage reduction when you say Armor rating, or do you mean Armor Class?

I included piercing attacks, an example, and changed the "armor rating" to DR. Also, it wasn't clear, but I intended the DR to be instead of AC, not in addition to it. I made that clearer now.

Be specific with the reflex DC. I am assuming the DC is = to the attack roll. so on an attack roll of 18 (which would hit our example character), a reflex save of 18 or higher would negate all the damage. other than that I like it.

Done.

This may require the hitpoints and hardness to go way up, because blocking any attack at higher levels will guarantee the shield to break on the first or second block ... but maybe not, I know magic items increase in hardness and hitpoints and I don't have many players sundering shield often enough to give you a good estimate.

It may. I don't have enough time to change that just now, but I'll work on it.

I don't think should you need to be fighting defensively in order to use a Block Action of Opportunity. Because that's a -4 to all your attacks for that round, for a +2 bonus to your Blocking and parrying rolls. My reasoning is, if you brought a shield to a fight, you're going to be ready to use it if you have it out ... you don't need to "focus" on defense in order to block.
c) Maybe give a decent bonus to the block attempt when using full defense, but an instant block I don't feel is very exciting.

Also, same as Dodging, you might want to specify that the opposing block roll must equal or exceed the attack role.

Done. Also, the idea between having total defense be an automatic block was mainly because of planting the shield in the ground. I realized that only really makes sense with tower shields, so I gave tower shields an extra bonus.

Here's some suggestions.
-Make THIS the ability that requires fighting defensively
- When attempting a parry, you take a -4 penalty for every size category larger your opponent is from you.
-You cannot parry an attack from a creature 2 or less size categories smaller than you
-Again, specify that the parry role must = or exceed the attack roll

Done.

I might put these notes at the beginning, or at least remind readers to read these first, because I almost posted something completely incorrect before I reread this passage.

Done also.

^^ all of the above statements that's what!

But in all seriousness, I like these changes. I can actually see myself implementing them in a more martial focused campaign, where spellcasting classes would be extremely rare, and maybe not even available to the PC's.

good rules

Thanks!

Also, I added luck/cover/concealment things in the misc section.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Nice fixes .. but I have a few additional comments. (most of which are just wording simplification/clarity) Like always, these are simply opinions, do with them what you will.

PART I

C) Might want to say "AC no longer determines how difficult a creature is to hit. Instead ...(insert your shpeel here)"
I don't know if it THAT important, it's just how I would have worded it.

D-E) Couple of things.
1) Where does Medium armor fit into this? (Scale mail etc)
2) If a creature only had a Deflection bonus to AC, or a Natural Armor bonus to AC, what type of armor would they have (light, medium heavy) for determining which types of attacks increase the DR or decrease it.

1 more thing, as it stands now, everyone get either one attack of opportunity or Action of Opportunity in any given round. UNLESS they take Combat Reflexes, which increases these action to a number equal to the character's DEX mod. Under the current system, this seems like a must for any DEX base class. But the poor fighter if limited by his armor. Sure he's got the nice DR, but up against say Dragon, even with a DR of 13 (fullplate +5), he could maybe block the first attack, but he can still get pretty beat up pretty fast. (maybe a better example is say, a Titan, using a gargantuan warhammer)

Here's some ideas: Look at the feats Combat refelxes and Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes I think could stay the same. But maybe try to add a variation to it (like Wisdom for Monk-type classes).
Combat Expertise is the thing that should help out your plate wearing heores, I don't have an example, but I feel like it should be the thing heavy armor players would want. (Bonus DR in exchange for attack pretty much is what it does now).
Maybe add a feat like Improves Shield Block
Benefit: You no longer spend an Action of Opportunity when blocking attack from in front of you, or from your shield flank. (I.e left side for right handed heroes)

PART IV

Maybe also add a penalty to parry with light weapons, otherwise you'll have daggers parrying greataxes, and as cool as that might be ... that really doesn't make sense in the physics department. On the other hand, DnD and physics aren't really on speaking terms ...

PART V

c) "parrying WHILE duel-wielding ..."
e) +4 bonus to dodging with cover makes sense. But In my opinion, granting the same bonus to both concealment and total concealment, doesn't make too much sense, and it that makes it so it really only favors high reflex characters. Granted, the dodge Action is at no cost, but most heavy fighter types will have a hard time dodging, even with the +4 bonus.
Here's my suggestion, because concealment is one of the rules that has a few clauses in it.
I think you should keep the miss chance granted by concealment. Maybe it'll be easier if I just write done so variant rules
-Attacks made against a target with total concealment have a 50% miss chance. In addition, if the attack actually hits the target, they can choose to either block, dodge or parry, at no cost to their uses of Actions of Opportunity, this receive a +4 bonus.
-Attacks FROM total concealment, can not be blocked dodged or parried, unless the target has the Blind Fight feat or similar ability.

That's all for now ... keep up the good work.

[Plato Play-Doh]

C) Might want to say "AC no longer determines how difficult a creature is to hit. Instead ...(insert your shpeel here)"
I don't know if it THAT important, it's just how I would have worded it.

Yeah, that works better. Done.

D-E) Couple of things.
1) Where does Medium armor fit into this? (Scale mail etc)
2) If a creature only had a Deflection bonus to AC, or a Natural Armor bonus to AC, what type of armor would they have (light, medium heavy) for determining which types of attacks increase the DR or decrease it.

The deflection/natural armor bonuses don't count as either heavy or light armor. I'm talking about the actual armor that you wear. Different types of armor provide differing levels of effectiveness against different weapons, which is what I wanted to portray here. Medium armor can use the listed stats, since its...well, medium. It's the middle man. Where light and heavy armor are going to be drastically disparate, and good at some things while bad at others, medium armor is pretty middle of the road at everything. That's the idea I wanted, anyway. I tend to like giving the option of specializing, or being a "jack of all trades, master of none", which is what I want medium armor to be.

1 more thing, as it stands now, everyone get either one attack of opportunity or Action of Opportunity in any given round. UNLESS they take Combat Reflexes, which increases these action to a number equal to the character's DEX mod. Under the current system, this seems like a must for any DEX base class. But the poor fighter if limited by his armor. Sure he's got the nice DR, but up against say Dragon, even with a DR of 13 (fullplate +5), he could maybe block the first attack, but he can still get pretty beat up pretty fast. (maybe a better example is say, a Titan, using a gargantuan warhammer)

Here's some ideas: Look at the feats Combat refelxes and Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes I think could stay the same. But maybe try to add a variation to it (like Wisdom for Monk-type classes).
Combat Expertise is the thing that should help out your plate wearing heores, I don't have an example, but I feel like it should be the thing heavy armor players would want. (Bonus DR in exchange for attack pretty much is what it does now).
Maybe add a feat like Improves Shield Block
Benefit: You no longer spend an Action of Opportunity when blocking attack from in front of you, or from your shield flank. (I.e left side for right handed heroes)

Yup. This sort of thing will be included in the feats section, once complete.

Maybe also add a penalty to parry with light weapons, otherwise you'll have daggers parrying greataxes, and as cool as that might be ... that really doesn't make sense in the physics department. On the other hand, DnD and physics aren't really on speaking terms ...

But what about real life weapons like the sai? Parrying is more about sword(or whatever weapon you use) play and finesse than anything else. Often smaller weapons could parry more efficiently. Well, as far as I know, at least. If someone with some more expertise with melee combat than I have (read:none) were to come here and say otherwise, I'd change it. Wouldn't want to mess with the great "swashbuckling rogue" archetype that we all know and love, and they certainly aren't usually wielding greatswords.

c) "parrying WHILE duel-wielding ..."

Fixed.

e) +4 bonus to dodging with cover makes sense. But In my opinion, granting the same bonus to both concealment and total concealment, doesn't make too much sense, and it that makes it so it really only favors high reflex characters. Granted, the dodge Action is at no cost, but most heavy fighter types will have a hard time dodging, even with the +4 bonus.
Here's my suggestion, because concealment is one of the rules that has a few clauses in it.
I think you should keep the miss chance granted by concealment. Maybe it'll be easier if I just write done so variant rules
-Attacks made against a target with total concealment have a 50% miss chance. In addition, if the attack actually hits the target, they can choose to either block, dodge or parry, at no cost to their uses of Actions of Opportunity, this receive a +4 bonus.
-Attacks FROM total concealment, can not be blocked dodged or parried, unless the target has the Blind Fight feat or similar ability.

Sorry, maybe I should clarify. How good you are at reflex saves doesn't matter with the automatic save. Basically, concealment, cover, and total concealment give what's kind of an "automatic miss chance", more than an "automatic dodge attempt." It's really just a different version of the miss chance. It also adds luck bonuses, for obvious reasons. It's a "you missed" type of thing. It does add to your ability to actively dodge, but it also adds to the chance that you'll be missed without even trying to dodge. That being said, I don't know why I kept concealment at the normal +4 instead of doubling that...my bad, I'll fix that. Also, I like the clause about attacks from concealment. Thanks for the suggestion!

That's all for now ... keep up the good work.

Will do!

[TheFamilarRaven]

The deflection/natural armor bonuses don't count as either heavy or light armor. I'm talking about the actual armor that you wear. Different types of armor provide differing levels of effectiveness against different weapons, which is what I wanted to portray here. Medium armor can use the listed stats, since its...well, medium. It's the middle man. Where light and heavy armor are going to be drastically disparate, and good at some things while bad at others, medium armor is pretty middle of the road at everything. That's the idea I wanted, anyway. I tend to like giving the option of specializing, or being a "jack of all trades, master of none", which is what I want medium armor to be.

Ok, that's fine. you should just probably clarify that medium armor has no bonuses or penalties against certain types of attacks. And that unarmored opponents (even though they may have natural armor or a deflection bonus to AC), have no vulnerabilities or bonuses, like medium armor.

But what about real life weapons like the sai? Parrying is more about sword(or whatever weapon you use) play and finesse than anything else. Often smaller weapons could parry more efficiently. Well, as far as I know, at least. If someone with some more expertise with melee combat than I have (read:none) were to come here and say otherwise, I'd change it. Wouldn't want to mess with the great "swashbuckling rogue" archetype that we all know and love, and they certainly aren't usually wielding greatswords.

Good point about the sai, considering the whole purpose of them was to catch and break swords in real life. But I will stick with my original opinion and here's why.
-Unless the weapon is specifically designed to parry, smaller weapons still have a harder time parrying blows because of the shear force of the bigger weapon (F = MA and all that). Granting, a dagger doesn't have to block the full force of an attack for it to be considered a parry, (as a matter of fact, most likely the person parrying would be trying to push the attack away, using the momentum against the attacker). But my point is, that's still pretty difficult to do with the given length of the weapon, and the rules should reflect that.
- the core already has rules which states it's harder to do certain combat maneuvers with light weapons, such as disarm and sunder, with the exception of certain exotic weapons.
- Your swashbuckler rogue archetype I imagine would be using a Rapier, scimitar or similar weapon, which are both one-handed and therefore would not suffer penalties to parrying attempts anyway. So you can still have your Dread Pirate Roberts deflecting greataxes with his twig of a sword

So there's my argument, do what you will with it.

But I also came up with some ideas that your swashbuckler might like.
-Feint can be used to either allow a sneak attack on the next attack, or a parry (without having to fight defensively)
- Monks I feel COULD parry with their natural weapons (Snatch arrows? pfff more like SNATCH SWORD!!!)
- Maybe allow a feat that works something like this.
Requires 4 ranks in Tumble
Benefit: After a successful dodge or parry, you may take a 5 ft step as an immediate action to your opponent's flank. If this step taken at the at the end of the attacker's fullattack, he is considered "flanked" for the first attack by the owner of this feat.

^^ Wording may be a little weird.

-Certain exotic weapons (like our dear friend the Sai) should be able to do certain combat maneuvers on a successful parry. For example the Sai can make a disarm attempt after a successful parry as a free action

Sorry, maybe I should clarify. How good you are at reflex saves doesn't matter with the automatic save. Basically, concealment, cover, and total concealment give what's kind of an "automatic miss chance", more than an "automatic dodge attempt." It's really just a different version of the miss chance. It also adds luck bonuses, for obvious reasons. It's a "you missed" type of thing. It does add to your ability to actively dodge, but it also adds to the chance that you'll be missed without even trying to dodge. That being said, I don't know why I kept concealment at the normal +4 instead of doubling that...my bad, I'll fix that. Also, I like the clause about attacks from concealment. Thanks for the suggestion!

gotcha

[Plato Play-Doh]

Ok, that's fine. you should just probably clarify that medium armor has no bonuses or penalties against certain types of attacks. And that unarmored opponents (even though they may have natural armor or a deflection bonus to AC), have no vulnerabilities or bonuses, like medium armor.

Alright.

Good point about the sai, considering the whole purpose of them was to catch and break swords in real life. But I will stick with my original opinion and here's why.
-Unless the weapon is specifically designed to parry, smaller weapons still have a harder time parrying blows because of the shear force of the bigger weapon (F = MA and all that). Granting, a dagger doesn't have to block the full force of an attack for it to be considered a parry, (as a matter of fact, most likely the person parrying would be trying to push the attack away, using the momentum against the attacker). But my point is, that's still pretty difficult to do with the given length of the weapon, and the rules should reflect that.
- the core already has rules which states it's harder to do certain combat maneuvers with light weapons, such as disarm and sunder, with the exception of certain exotic weapons.
- Your swashbuckler rogue archetype I imagine would be using a Rapier, scimitar or similar weapon, which are both one-handed and therefore would not suffer penalties to parrying attempts anyway. So you can still have your Dread Pirate Roberts deflecting greataxes with his twig of a sword

Yeah, you're right. Changed.

-Feint can be used to either allow a sneak attack on the next attack, or a parry (without having to fight defensively)

I don't know about this one. I feel like feint would be more likely used to get an advantage on your next attack than to improve your ability to defend. I would probably change feint up a bit, but this is a defenses overhaul, not an offensive overhaul (though that may come later, once I'm done with this).

- Monks I feel COULD parry with their natural weapons (Snatch arrows? pfff more like SNATCH SWORD!!!)

I like it. Added.

- Maybe allow a feat that works something like this.
Requires 4 ranks in Tumble
Benefit: After a successful dodge or parry, you may take a 5 ft step as an immediate action to your opponent's flank. If this step taken at the at the end of the attacker's fullattack, he is considered "flanked" for the first attack by the owner of this feat.

I'll put that into the feats section, once it's complete.

-Certain exotic weapons (like our dear friend the Sai) should be able to do certain combat maneuvers on a successful parry. For example the Sai can make a disarm attempt after a successful parry as a free action

Included an "unless otherwise stated" clause in there. I will include weapon changes later on. Right now, I seem to have fallen slightly ill, so I'm gonna curl up on the couch with a movie, a book, or both. I'll probably alternate between the two.

[Philemonite]

I like this idea very much.

Part I: Armor

Spoiler

Show

a. Dex, Insight, Dodge, Luck, and Shield bonuses no longer apply to AC.
b. Any spell that gives a shield bonus to AC now gives a deflection bonus instead to AC.
c. Subtract 10 from this AC score.
d. AC no longer prevents attacks from hitting. Instead, it gives that much DR.
d. Light Armor’s DR is doubled against bludgeoning attacks, and halved against piercing attacks.
e. Medium Armor's DR is unchanged by the type of attack.
f. Heavy Armor’s DR is halved against bludgeoning attacks, and doubled against slashing attacks.
g. The DR from Deflection Bonuses and Natural Armor are unaffected by damage type unless otherwise stated.
h. Armor’s max dex rating instead is a limit on the number of times one can take an action of opportunity in a round.
i. For example, Farnir is a fighter with full plate armor. He is incapable of gaining actions of opportunity from effects like combat reflexes, because his armor has a maximum dex rating of 1. His armor has an armor bonus of 8, and base AC is 10, so he has 18 AC. After subtracting the base AC, he finds that he has a DR of 8.

Light/Medium/Heavy armor looks imbalanced. Maybe change it to:
Heavy-Slashing double, Bludgeoning half
Medium-Piercing double, Slashing half
Light-Bludgeoning double, Piercing half

Part II: Dodging

Spoiler

Show

a. Instead of using AC, a creature or character may make a reflex save to completely negate a nonmagical attack, for which the DC is equal to the attack roll for that attack.
b. This is considered an action of opportunity, and thus counts against the total number of attacks of opportunity each round. This also means that the feat Combat Reflexes, and similar effects, increase the number of times a creature or character may dodge each round.
c. Dodge bonuses, luck bonuses, and insight bonuses to AC now apply to reflex instead.

This bonus applies only to dodging, right?


This is a very interesting idea, it makes a full armor and shield Paladin and high dexterity dual wielding Rogue completely different and gives a lot of flexibility to melee builds. Do you plan on adding any feats?

[TheFamilarRaven]

I don't know about this one. I feel like feint would be more likely used to get an advantage on your next attack than to improve your ability to defend. I would probably change feint up a bit, but this is a defenses overhaul, not an offensive overhaul (though that may come later, once I'm done with this).

That's fine. At the moment i find it difficult to put my reasoning for for adding the ability to parry with a successful feint into words, so might as well go ahead with keeping feint the same.

Included an "unless otherwise stated" clause in there. I will include weapon changes later on. Right now, I seem to have fallen slightly ill, so I'm gonna curl up on the couch with a movie, a book, or both. I'll probably alternate between the two.

Get better soon. And might I suggest a movie where the protagonist reads a book? That way it'd save you the trouble of alternating.

However, I'll add a few suggestions for when you get back.

I'll agree with Asteron Questar, I think all armor types should have their own advantages and downfalls.

Also, in the Armor section, in regards to C & D. This wording might be better.
"AC no longer prevents attacks from hitting a creature. Instead, take the AC of the creature, and -10. The Creature now has that much DR."

^^ Or something like this, because the way it is now, I feel like it's kind of awkwardly worded.

Also, in regards to section A, I don't think size modifier should apply to AC to determine DR. Instead, it should apply to Dodging.

Also, to quote Asteron Questar on dodging:

This bonus applies only to dodging, right?

Yes, these bonuses apply only to dodging for now. That being said:

It might be a good idea to apply luck and insight bonuses to Parrying and blocking as well. Also, maybe flying creatures get a bonus to dodge as well, scaling by how good their flight maneuverability is. Might be tedious but, it's just something I thought of just now.

Get better soon.

(And yes, Asteron Questar, there will be new feats and feat changes, but they're WiP at the moment)

[Fosco the Swift]

All of this this awesome, it really makes the martial part of battle much more interesting. i have a issue though: why make armor being only useful for the damage types (peircing, slashing, etc), because that actually is hard to make accurate. If you've ever seen real plate armor in your life, you would understand what I'm about to say: heavy armor is powerful against really any form of physical abuse, its built that way. Plate armor and other heavy armors are made specifically to be resistant to swords, not to be extra weak. So instead of having it be the damge types, why not make it the kind of WEAPON? Using the Fighter Weapon Training tables as a reference, hahve certain armor be resistant and weak to those classifications. As an example:

Heavy Armor would be vurnable to the Axes group, mainly because axes were highly effective against armor. But it would be resistant to both the light blades and heavy blades group.
How does this sound?

[TheFamilarRaven]

All of this this awesome, it really makes the martial part of battle much more interesting. i have a issue though: why make armor being only useful for the damage types (peircing, slashing, etc), because that actually is hard to make accurate. If you've ever seen real plate armor in your life, you would understand what I'm about to say: heavy armor is powerful against really any form of physical abuse, its built that way. Plate armor and other heavy armors are made specifically to be resistant to swords, not to be extra weak. So instead of having it be the damge types, why not make it the kind of WEAPON? Using the Fighter Weapon Training tables as a reference, hahve certain armor be resistant and weak to those classifications. As an example:

Heavy Armor would be vurnable to the Axes group, mainly because axes were highly effective against armor. But it would be resistant to both the light blades and heavy blades group.
How does this sound?

i second this. I would also like to add, Crossbows should have high armor penetration as well. Because in real-life, they were WAY better than bows.

[Fosco the Swift]

And I agree with you in turn. I've always wondered why someone would choose a crossbow over a bow besides the proficiency part. This would finally give crossbows some well deserved respect for once, and would balance out crossbows and longbows. I'll post my thoughts for the armor vernablities/ resistances table soon.

[Fosco the Swift]

Armor Weakness/ Resistances (Some weapon groups not included because they are difficult to place)

Heavy. Weaknesses- Axes, Flails, hammers, crossbows
Resistances- Blades (both), bows, Monk

Medium. Weaknesses- Crossbows, Pole Arms,
Resistances- Swords (light), close

Light. Weaknesses- Natural, Bows, blades (heavy)
Resistances- Spears, thrown, crossbow

A little shaky but with a little help and fleshing out it could work pretty nice.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I think my immune system just kind of gave up, because a minor cold just turned into a week and a half long endeavor. No matter. I'm back. Sorry for the long time between posts.

I'll agree with Asteron Questar, I think all armor types should have their own advantages and downfalls.

So instead of having it be the damge types, why not make it the kind of WEAPON? Using the Fighter Weapon Training tables as a reference, hahve certain armor be resistant and weak to those classifications. As an example:

Heavy Armor would be vurnable to the Axes group, mainly because axes were highly effective against armor. But it would be resistant to both the light blades and heavy blades group.
How does this sound?

I'm starting to think that the best way to go about it might be to give
all weapons armor penetration, so they ignore a certain amount of armor. That could work. What do you guys think?

Also, in the Armor section, in regards to C & D. This wording might be better.
"AC no longer prevents attacks from hitting a creature. Instead, take the AC of the creature, and -10. The Creature now has that much DR."

^^ Or something like this, because the way it is now, I feel like it's kind of awkwardly worded.

OK, changed.

Also, in regards to section A, I don't think size modifier should apply to AC to determine DR. Instead, it should apply to Dodging.

Oh yeah, how foolish of me. I totally overlooked that. My bad.

Also, to quote Asteron Questar on dodging:


Yes, these bonuses apply only to dodging for now. That being said:

It might be a good idea to apply luck and insight bonuses to Parrying and blocking as well.

I agree. Changed.

Also, maybe flying creatures get a bonus to dodge as well, scaling by how good their flight maneuverability is. Might be tedious but, it's just something I thought of just now.

I've included a section on flight and maneuverability in Part V.

[Vadskye]

I strongly encourage you to model these changes with spreadsheets so that you can understand what the impact is on the game. A great deal of homebrew that tries to radically alter the numerical basis of the game looks nice or "realistic" on paper, but yields terrible gameplay.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I strongly encourage you to model these changes with spreadsheets so that you can understand what the impact is on the game. A great deal of homebrew that tries to radically alter the numerical basis of the game looks nice or "realistic" on paper, but yields terrible gameplay.

I must admit, I've never really made changes that were significant enough to require spreadsheets before. (At least not since my first attempt at homebrew, which was a failed attempt to overhaul the magic system.) I wouldn't really know where to start with that. This is why I've been holding off on crunching numbers and whatnot in order to fully adjust for balance, like with the hitpoints and hardness for shields thing. Up till now, I've really just kinda stuck with eyeballing it and hoping for the best. I'm afraid I'll be overwhelmed by it, so I'm waiting at least until I have a week or so of time off.

Granted, I had that last week, but I was ill, so I didn't really feel like putting any significant amount of thought into anything, really.

[Zaydos]

Looking it over:

This looks like it could be useful in a game with primarily non-magical humanoid foes. Against non-weapon wielding enemies combat is reduced to "I power attack for full" as they now have quite high impenetrable DR (dragons have DR = HD - 1) and no AC. Armor penetration stats might mean you can get around the DR 13 from enchanted full-plate but do nothing for fighting non-humanoid foes.

It also means combats will take much, much longer and that Combat Reflexes coupled with a high Dex will be even more important to a melee combatant becoming a must have feat (as it will be used against every attack at least once). You probably want to remove the feat entirely and just change it so that it's built in to characters to avoid it being an additional feat tax.

Also if I parry with a greatsword can I perform my follow up attack with it? Wasn't sure with the note about 2WF, I thought it was saying you didn't have to use the same weapon you parried with but could however I wasn't sure.

[Plato Play-Doh]

This looks like it could be useful in a game with primarily non-magical humanoid foes. Against non-weapon wielding enemies combat is reduced to "I power attack for full" as they now have quite high impenetrable DR (dragons have DR = HD - 1) and no AC. Armor penetration stats might mean you can get around the DR 13 from enchanted full-plate but do nothing for fighting non-humanoid foes.

Yeah, this is true. I'll apply pen to all armor, so that could help. I don't know what my reasoning was behind not allowing that in the first place. Stupid past self.

It also means combats will take much, much longer and that Combat Reflexes coupled with a high Dex will be even more important to a melee combatant becoming a must have feat (as it will be used against every attack at least once). You probably want to remove the feat entirely and just change it so that it's built in to characters to avoid it being an additional feat tax.

OK, I'll do that.

Also if I parry with a greatsword can I perform my follow up attack with it? Wasn't sure with the note about 2WF, I thought it was saying you didn't have to use the same weapon you parried with but could however I wasn't sure.

If you parry with a greatsword, you can perform a follow-up attack, but it costs you an additional action of opportunity. With 2WF, you can perform the follow-up attack with your other weapon, and if you do so it doesn't cost an attack of opportunity, but it applies normal 2WF attack penalties if you do so.

[TheFamilarRaven]

I'll have to see the armor penetration stats on weapons to properly review them. However, I'm trying to look at how it'd work in my mind. So here's me just thinking out loud.

-In order to maintain balance, low damage weapons would have to have more armor pen. than high damage weapons. Otherwise, no one would use daggers ever.
- But the armor pen. can't be so significant that it makes armor worthless, because then no one would wear light or even medium armor.
- I am imagining the old idea, where certain armor types have strengths and weaknesses, (i.e light armor could resist pierces, but takes extra from slashing, or something like that.)
-That still leaves the problem of creatures who rely entirely on natural armor, and those with high natural armor, like Dragons.
- One idea is to simply reduce the bonus to DR from natural armor in half, round down.
- but that opens up problems of it's own, namely creatures with low natural armor and some DEX adding to their original AC. Such as an Ettercap, would have no DR at all.
- That may or may not be a problem, considering they still have the ability to dodge, for example a fiendish rat would still have a good chance of dodging a level 1 fighter, even if said fighter had a STR of 18, the chance would be 50/50.
- I'm not too concerned for big creatures not having high DR, because they're hitpoint sponges anyway.
Alternatively, keep Natural AC (and while i'm at it I should mention that when I say natural AC i am including Deflection too, for all them ghosties) the same, and include them in the above descriptions with armor of what damage types get through what armor type. But instead of it being a damage type (slashing/bludgeon etc), make it certain materials that reduce the DR by half, like adamantium or mithril etc.
-then add alchemical flasks and and such that can be thrown at enemies to reduce DR temporarily.
- Doing some calculations, a party using the proper materials, a greatwyrm gold dragon is reduced to a DR of 20, using proper strategy and use of consumable goods (potions/acid flasks to reduce DR etc) the party should have a good chance of dealing damage to a dragon.
- I don't really mind the "I power attack for full" idea, because if that's what you have to do, then that's what you have to do. dragon's and big creatures have lots of health, and assuming your using this ruleset for a strictly martial/low magic campaign (low magic meaning no full out casters like wizards, clerics etc), they're going to need to do all the damage they can do.
-Plus, the minuses to attacks mean the attack is easier to dodge.
- In the case of a monster having natural armor AND wearing actual armor (like an ettin), you could simply state that the higher of the two determines which damage reduces the DR. For example, an ettin has a higher natural armor than his Hide armor, therefore, it would require (say adamantium) to reduce his DR in half, regardless of the armor type. While a half-dragon, wearing full plate, has natural armor lower than his actual armor, therefore, you would use the weakness of heavy armor to determine what damage type reduces his DR in half.
- Or, if you want, you could apply both, for instance, the Ettin has natural armor and hide armor, therefore you would need an adamantium piercing weapon to reduce the DR in half. Otherwise you would simply reduce one bonus to DR in half, but not the other. So an adamantium weapon would reduce the Natural armor bonus in half, but not the Hide armor bonus to DR, (in fact that might even be double against the adamantium weapon being used).
-This might slow gameplay down a little, because of the all the remembering of DR strengths and weaknesses, but it's a different ruleset altogether, so it'll be slow to start out with anyway until one gets a hang of it.

So there's my rant, hope it helps, Thanks again for the followup PEACH on my Havoc Knight, (Hint, hint, to everyone, shameless call for a PEACH).

[Fosco the Swift]

Another thing about turning armor into DR, this has been thought about before and is really only any good for the middle levels. At 2nd or 3rd level, the Fighter has at least half-plate giving him more DR than an average goblin or orc can deal with a non critical hit. At middle levels the DR can about half the damage, making it fairly realistic. At high levels though, a dragon can deal nearly 4x your DR with ONE HIT, making it quite ineffective. That means that dodging is going to be huge then, making the rogue quite powerful.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Another thing about turning armor into DR, this has been thought about before and is really only any good for the middle levels. At 2nd or 3rd level, the Fighter has at least half-plate giving him more DR than an average goblin or orc can deal with a non critical hit. At middle levels the DR can about half the damage, making it fairly realistic. At high levels though, a dragon can deal nearly 4x your DR with ONE HIT, making it quite ineffective. That means that dodging is going to be huge then, making the rogue quite powerful.

Valid points, but I think the system still can hold up. Because at low levels, you can still half the DR with the appropriate weapon. at mid levels the same thing applies. At high levels, armor DR becomes less helpful as you pointed out, however ... The point of this system is to emphasize parry, block and dodge as a means of defense rather than armor.
Rogues are at no more an advantages to completely negate attacks because blocking and parrying are equally effective and come with their own strengths and draw backs.
Dodging: Strengths include being able to be used anytime (unless flat-footed or similar effect), drawbacks include weaker progression than BaB, which is used to determine blocking/parrying.

Parrying: Strengths include being able to negate damage with a low reflex score, drawback is you have to be fighting defensively, and it gets weaker against bigger opponents, or unable to be used against opponents much smaller than you.

Blocking: Strengths, can be used at anytime, provided the target is in front or to your shield flank, while also using BaB as a means to augment the Block roll, drawback is your shield eventually breaks.

Standard DnD tactics are probably not enough to stand up to a dragon with this system, especially in a no/low magic setting. but with a few alterations to consumable items, I'm optimistic it can be done,

Edit: So your Paladin rushes forward, his shield ready to block all incoming attacks. the Rogue jumps on the Dragon's back, stabbing into it with his poison covered blades, the Barbarian enrages and leaps in with his greataxe. While the Ranger hangs back, launching arrows. Fortunately, they came prepared with plenty of acid resistance, stoneskin, bull strength etc, along with plenty of healing Potions. (Only problem are the Spells and grappling but shhhhhhhhhhh DM's like me don't know Dragons can do those )

[Zaydos]

Does a failed attack made as an attack of opportunity provoke an attack of opportunity? This will get drawn out fast.

Rogues have the advantage of being Dex based and thus more AoOs.

Also as currently made against humanoid foes you always want to fight defensively if you don't have a shield so that you can parry.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Zaydos had some good points

1) Yeah, that would take forever.

2) I'm starting to think that it would be best to scale the AoO's something like
1+(1/4 your levels) except that it might be difficult to calculate how many AoO's certain monsters would get. You could do BaB, but all that would do is give Fighter type classes a distinct advantages rather than the Rogue.

3) with a -4 to attack against your opponents dodge or block AoO roll. Maybe decrease damage done as well when fighting defensively? I think we need something as Zaydos has pointed out, that encourages players to not always fight defensively, rather than punishing them for fighting defensively though. well, not so much as pointed out i think rather than implied

[Fosco the Swift]

an the subject of shields and blocking, it was said that shields would quickly be destroyed at the higher levels when used to block. I know that the world is low magic, but what if you made enchantments that could specifically be placed on shields? Also a +x shield gains higher HRD/HP for when blocking or being sundered.
Let's say for each +x level on a shield, it gains +2 HRD and +10 HP. So a +2 Light Steel Shield has a HRD of 14 and 30 HP.
Special Enchantments could be used too, such as some that give bonuses on blocking or possibly a "Regenerating shield" that has fast healing 1 or similar.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I'll have to see the armor penetration stats on weapons to properly review them.

I'll get to that, but it'll probably be included in a larger rework of weapons/other equipment, since I've got a few ideas of how to change them around. That will require a separate thread, so anything without hard numbers yet will just be left up to the imagination without being quantified for now. Sorry about that.

-In order to maintain balance, low damage weapons would have to have more armor pen. than high damage weapons. Otherwise, no one would use daggers ever.

Yes, this is true. Some weapons will be low damage but have significant armor penetration (I'm thinking maybe stuff like spears, since they would be able to aim for the chinks in armor). Others would have really effective crits, and be especially effective with sneak attacks (like daggers). Others still would just have huge damage (like greatswords).

- But the armor pen. can't be so significant that it makes armor worthless, because then no one would wear light or even medium armor.

True. However, with certain weapons no having any pen, instead having other characteristics that make them worthwhile, different armor types become worth it again!

- I am imagining the old idea, where certain armor types have strengths and weaknesses, (i.e light armor could resist pierces, but takes extra from slashing, or something like that.)
-That still leaves the problem of creatures who rely entirely on natural armor, and those with high natural armor, like Dragons.

True, I'm not really sure which system to go with at this point.

- One idea is to simply reduce the bonus to DR from natural armor in half, round down.
- but that opens up problems of it's own, namely creatures with low natural armor and some DEX adding to their original AC. Such as an Ettercap, would have no DR at all.
- That may or may not be a problem, considering they still have the ability to dodge, for example a fiendish rat would still have a good chance of dodging a level 1 fighter, even if said fighter had a STR of 18, the chance would be 50/50.

True, but what about creatures that aren't good at dodging, and rely on their natural armor to be a threat that doesn't die nearly instantly?

- I'm not too concerned for big creatures not having high DR, because they're hitpoint sponges anyway.

I agree.

Alternatively, keep Natural AC (and while i'm at it I should mention that when I say natural AC i am including Deflection too, for all them ghosties) the same, and include them in the above descriptions with armor of what damage types get through what armor type. But instead of it being a damage type (slashing/bludgeon etc), make it certain materials that reduce the DR by half, like adamantium or mithril etc.

That could work.

-then add alchemical flasks and and such that can be thrown at enemies to reduce DR temporarily.
- Doing some calculations, a party using the proper materials, a greatwyrm gold dragon is reduced to a DR of 20, using proper strategy and use of consumable goods (potions/acid flasks to reduce DR etc) the party should have a good chance of dealing damage to a dragon.

Works for me!

- I don't really mind the "I power attack for full" idea, because if that's what you have to do, then that's what you have to do. dragon's and big creatures have lots of health, and assuming your using this ruleset for a strictly martial/low magic campaign (low magic meaning no full out casters like wizards, clerics etc), they're going to need to do all the damage they can do.

True. Also, I don't necessarily love how magic works in a lot of respects either, so I may do an overhaul of that as well (hopefully one that works better than my last one). If I do, I'll be significantly changing the saving throw systems. Vs. reflex will just be an attack roll, and other stuff will probably be determined by spellcraft checks or something. IDK, but just as a word to the wise, I'll be making it possible to dodge spells. Sooo...yeah. That's a thing I just figured I should mention, that seemed remotely relevant since you mentioned spellcasters. Also, I will be getting rid of vancian casting. Cuz' it's stupid and immersion breaking. Yeah.

-Plus, the minuses to attacks mean the attack is easier to dodge.

Yup.

- In the case of a monster having natural armor AND wearing actual armor (like an ettin), you could simply state that the higher of the two determines which damage reduces the DR. For example, an ettin has a higher natural armor than his Hide armor, therefore, it would require (say adamantium) to reduce his DR in half, regardless of the armor type. While a half-dragon, wearing full plate, has natural armor lower than his actual armor, therefore, you would use the weakness of heavy armor to determine what damage type reduces his DR in half.

I don't know about that. I mean, what works against plate isn't necessarily gonna work against leathery hide. Just sayin'.

- Or, if you want, you could apply both, for instance, the Ettin has natural armor and hide armor, therefore you would need an adamantium piercing weapon to reduce the DR in half. Otherwise you would simply reduce one bonus to DR in half, but not the other. So an adamantium weapon would reduce the Natural armor bonus in half, but not the Hide armor bonus to DR, (in fact that might even be double against the adamantium weapon being used).
-This might slow gameplay down a little, because of the all the remembering of DR strengths and weaknesses, but it's a different ruleset altogether, so it'll be slow to start out with anyway until one gets a hang of it.

Well, I should've read on before responding to the text just before this, because this I like better, if I re-implement the strengths and weaknesses. It makes the most sense to me, from a fluffy/verisimilitude standpoint. Yes, it might get a bit confusing, but it's a drop in the ocean considering the layers of complexity within an entire RPG system. It's just a couple more things to keep track of. (granted, I'm already introducing new things to keep track of, but still...)

So there's my rant, hope it helps, Thanks again for the followup PEACH on my Havoc Knight, (Hint, hint, to everyone, shameless call for a PEACH).

No problem. It's a really cool concept. Everyone should check it out.
*overly exaggerated wink*

Does a failed attack made as an attack of opportunity provoke an attack of opportunity? This will get drawn out fast.

Yes, but only with two individuals with high dex to get additional AOOs, and even if they do, that's sacrificing your defenses vs. other creatures that attack if you draw it out for too long. In a 1v1 duel, where you don't have to worry about other people attacking, going back and forth like that is essentially fencing, with repeated parries and ripostes. I don't feel that this should cause too many problems.

Wait, I just noticed that I didn't expressly state that you only provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you missed. I've changed that now.

Rogues have the advantage of being Dex based and thus more AoOs.

Yes they do. And Bards have the advantage of being Cha based and having more diplomacy skill. I fail to see the problem here.

Also as currently made against humanoid foes you always want to fight defensively if you don't have a shield so that you can parry.

Unless you want to lessen the chances of you yourself getting parried, since you lower your attack rolls by 4. It's a fair tradeoff, in my opinion. However, maybe I should have something else to encourage fighting normally, as TheFamiliarRaven says. I'll think on it. Feel free to give suggestions, I'll probably have either taken a suggestion or come up with some other plausible way of rewarding fighting offensively (as I might as well call it for now) by the next time I post.

an the subject of shields and blocking, it was said that shields would quickly be destroyed at the higher levels when used to block. I know that the world is low magic, but what if you made enchantments that could specifically be placed on shields? Also a +x shield gains higher HRD/HP for when blocking or being sundered.
Let's say for each +x level on a shield, it gains +2 HRD and +10 HP. So a +2 Light Steel Shield has a HRD of 14 and 30 HP.
Special Enchantments could be used too, such as some that give bonuses on blocking or possibly a "Regenerating shield" that has fast healing 1 or similar.

Good idea. I'll include that in the equipment overhaul I was referring to earlier in this post.

[Fosco the Swift]

Since it was pointed out that things could look good on paper, but were worthless when actually used I gave this a quick run through with a 3rd level fighter and a goblin. The goblin was killed and the Fighter came out unharmed. I tested the Dodge, block and Armor DR and they seemed to hold up quite well.
Fighter Statistics-
Str-17
Dex-14
Con-13
Int-12
Wis-10
Cha-8
Chain armor with a light steel shield.
Dodging +6
Blocking +6
Parrying +6
Armor DR-4
Feats- Quick Draw, Dodge, Weapon Focus (longsword), Lightning reflexes, Power Attack
So my questions according to how the battle turned out:
-Lightning Reflexes gives a bonus to Dodge, correct?
-When you fight defensively to parry, do you include the attack minus to your parry attempt? For example, you attack with a +7. Since you are fighting defensively, you get a -2 to attack. So is your parry score technically a +5?
Other ideas:
-Combat reflexes can be remade- it gives you +1 Actions of Opportunity. Presiquites can be a BAB of at least +5 or similar.
-Shield focus can be a feat that gives you a +1 to your blocking roll, and Improved Shield focus gives you an addtional +1.
-Combat Expertise could be changed so that when you use it, you take the -x to your normal attack. Any attack on you until your next turn can be parried with the bonus equal to the minus you took on your attack (obviously the points subtracted from attacking do not carry over to your parry).
-Armor focus <specific armor> can give you a +1 DR when you were that armor, and Improved Armor Focus gives you an additional +1 DR.
Anything here seem good?

[TheFamilarRaven]

Since it was pointed out that things could look good on paper, but were worthless when actually used I gave this a quick run through with a 3rd level fighter and a goblin. The goblin was killed and the Fighter came out unharmed. I tested the Dodge, block and Armor DR and they seemed to hold up quite well.

sounds promising, i have a session tomorrow, If we don't get started right away or something else comes up, I'll have my players roll a Paladin (defense), Barbarian (Heavy melee offensive), rogue (Stealthy offense) and maybe a Ranger (Range support) and/or Monk (wild card offense? I don't know). they'll be level 5 and I'll pit them against an appropriate CR encounter, and I'll see how they do.
I'll use the the system below, cause we don't have armor pen. stats yet, (to my knowledge) Where:
Medium armor has DR that is halved against slashing but doubled against piercing
Heavy armor has DR that is halved against bludgeoning but doubled against slashing
Light has DR that is halved against piercing and doubled against bludgeoning

In addition, Natural armor has a set DR, but is halved by adamantium (unless another material is specifically stated, i.e lycanthropes would need silver etc).
So far, I'm not planning on using any creatures with Deflection DR, because I can't think of a suitable method to bypass it.

[Fosco the Swift]

Deflection DR could be bypassed by magic. Just to keep it scaled with level, the magic bonus on the weapon (including special abilities such a "Holy") could be put according to the following rules. So monsters with a CR<5 deflection DR is bypassed by magic weapons with at least a +1 bonus. Monster with a CR<9 but greater than 4 have a DR that is bypassed by magic bonuses equal or higher than +2. +3 weapons effect CR monsters CR<13, etc. Would this work for your group at all?

[TheFamilarRaven]

Deflection DR could be bypassed by magic. Just to keep it scaled with level, the magic bonus on the weapon (including special abilities such a "Holy") could be put according to the following rules. So monsters with a CR<5 deflection DR is bypassed by magic weapons with at least a +1 bonus. Monster with a CR<9 but greater than 4 have a DR that is bypassed by magic bonuses equal or higher than +2. +3 weapons effect CR monsters CR<13, etc. Would this work for your group at all?

I though about magic, not the scaling part like you included. My only concern is the if it is magic, Deflection will be half as effective almost all the time.

[Fosco the Swift]

To make it simpler, just make nothing able to bypasss its DR (except for spells that are immune to Spell Resistance) and just half the DR. So a defelction AC of +5, would be DR 2/-
That should keep it fairly even throughout your game.