Vermin Template - Bloated

[Ali]

This is a template I made which can be applied to a vermin that can use poison naturally. I got the idea from the 'Bloated Dire Spider' in the original Neverwinter Nights campaign. A vermin with this template would be considerably more powerful then it was before it had the template, so if you need a powerful spider or something, you could make it bloated.

Bloated Creature

A Bloated Creature is a vermin that has become so acidic and poisonous that it throbs with the amount of filth inside it. A Bloated Creature’s favourite tactic in combat is to grapple its opponent and then melt it with poisonous acid, and if this fails it simply claws it to death.

Size and Type: Vermin with this template remain as vermin.
Special Attacks: Retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following:
Vomit Acidic Poison: Once per day, if the creature has its foe in a grapple, it can force itself to vomit an enormous amount of acidic poison onto the foe, which deals 10d6 acid damage and reduces the victim’s strength, constitution and dexterity by 4d4. This attack ends the grapple.
A DC 18 fortitude save can be made to half the acid damage and a DC 18 fortitude save can be made to resist the poison.
Special Qualities:
Acidic Mucus Grease: All melee attacks made by a Bloated Creature do an extra 1d4 of acid damage, due to the greasy, acidic substance covering it. Anything that attacks the Bloated Creature in melee takes 1d2 of acid damage – also because of the vile substance covering it. If it is attacked by a weapon, the weapon takes the 1d2 of acid damage.
Inner Filth: When a Bloated Creature reaches 0 hit points, or if it takes 50 or more points of damage in one strike, it explodes, spraying everything within 10 feet of it with acid. This deals 1d10 of acid damage, which can be halved with a successful reflex save (DC 20).
Acid Immunity: Bloated Creatures have so much acid inside them, they have gained immunity to it.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Intriguing concept. However, I'd have the acid damage be dependent on their size, as a tarantula shouldn't do as much damage as a colossal scorpion. Also, the saves need to be fortitude based.

[Ali]

Hmm... yes, I agree with the fortitude save. As for the size, I suppose it could be 1 damage for diminuitive or below, and for tiny and small, d2, d3 for medium and large, d4 for huge and gargantuan, and d6+for colossal bloated vermin.

[fangthane]

For the poison, 4d4 seems a bit much to apply to each of 3 stats when a Bloated rat vomits on your left shoe. I'd reduce that and make the DC of the save depend on the bloated creature's HD and constitution score (DC=10+1/2HD + con modifier). I'm a big believer in making things scale, so I'd suggest something like this:

Once per day, if the creature has its foe in a grapple, it can force itself to vomit an enormous amount of acidic poison onto its foe. This acidic poison deals 1d6 acid damage for each two hit dice the bloated creature has, in addition to causing primary and secondary ability score damage to strength, constitution and dexterity. Medium bloated creatures' poison deals 1d4 damage to each ability score; increase or decrease the die size for each size category larger or smaller. This attack ends the grapple.
A fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD + Con bonus) may be made to half the acid damage and negate poisoning.

Edit - also, the Inner Filth DC should be based on 10+1/2 HD + an ability score mod (probably also con)

[Ali]

True, that is a much better way of dealing with those abilities. My thanks.

[fangthane]

True, that is a much better way of dealing with those abilities. My thanks.

No worries; as far as I'm concerned, constructive criticism is the whole reason for this section of the message board. :)

Except for my designs, which of course are flawless right from the get-go.

Oh yeah, other stuff which needs to be tightened up is stuff like how much it boosts monster CR and what the LA is for character classes who take the template (ideally not player characters, but a Bloated Drider rogue, for example)

My advice is to look for one of Demented One or Vorpal Tribble's template designs and adjust the format to suit (and include whatever else you've missed and I, with my lack of template-making experience, am not catching)

[Ali]

Bloated Drider Rogue!! HA!!

I suppose I didn't really consider the CR increase in the creature.. to be honest, I mostly made this to plonk on a vermin which will fight one of the adventurers in my next session, who has a hatred for monstrous spiders. I just thought that if anyone else wanted to quickly make a vermin more powerful, they could apply this template.

Still, good advice again, thank you. I will search out a template design by Demented One or Vorpal Tribble and see how this can be improved.

[Winged One]

What's the CR increase for this template? Also, shouldn't the save DCs be based on the base creature rather than preset?

[Fizban]

Poison as defined deals damage with fort save negates, then deals damage again 1 min later. You should probably state that unlike normal poison, this does not repeat 1 min later, or even better:

Once per day, if the creature has its foe in a grapple, it can force itself to vomit an enormous amount of acidic poison onto the foe. The acid deals 10d6 damage with a fortitude save for half, and the poison deals 4d4 str, con, and dex initial damage with no secondary damage. The save is 10+1/2 the base creatures hit dice+the base creatures con modifier (the standard formula).

[Ali]

Bloated Creature

A Bloated Creature is a vermin that has become so acidic and poisonous that it throbs with the amount of filth inside it. A Bloated Creature’s favourite tactic in combat is to grapple its opponent and then melt it with poisonous acid, and if this fails it simply claws it to death and then eats it.

Size and Type: Vermin with this template remain as vermin.

Special Attacks: Retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following:

Vomit Acidic Poison: Once per day, if the creature has its foe in a grapple, it can force itself to vomit an enormous amount of acidic poison onto its foe. This acidic poison deals 1d6 acid damage for each two hit dice the bloated creature has, in addition to causing primary and secondary ability score damage to strength, constitution and dexterity. Medium bloated creatures' poison deals 1d4 str, con, and dex initial damage with no secondary damage; increase or decrease the die size for each size category larger or smaller. This attack ends the grapple.
A fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD + Con bonus) may be made to half the acid damage and negate poisoning.

Special Qualities:

Acidic Mucus Grease: All melee attacks made by a Bloated Creature do extra acid damage, due to the greasy, acidic substance covering it Medium Bloated Creatures do an extra 1d4 damage; increase or decrease the die size for each size category larger or smaller. Anything that attacks a medium Bloated Creature in melee takes 1d2 of acid damage (increase or decrease the die size for each size category larger or smaller) – also because of the vile substance covering it. If it is attacked by a weapon, the weapon takes the acid damage.
Inner Filth: When a Bloated Creature reaches 0 hit points, or if it takes 50 or more points of damage in one strike, it explodes, spraying everything within 10 feet of it with acid. This deals 1d10 of acid damage, which can be halved with a successful reflex save (10+1/2 HD + Con Bonus).
Acid Immunity: Bloated Creatures have so much acid inside them, they have gained immunity to it.

I'm still not sure about how this would affect CR.. hmm...

[fangthane]

Hmm, one thing I'd change - thought I was clearer before but looking at our discussion I can see that I never actually made it explicit, so I apologise (enjoy that, it don't happen often ) for that... The reduction to 1d4 plus or minus die sizes for poison was predicated on there being primary and secondary damage both; After a look at the Vermin section of the MM though, it looks like you may have things pretty much dialed in as far as the size-based poisons go. Most medium vermin appear to do 1d3 to a single attribute, twice; the 1d4 is roughly balanced with this, especially given that it's a 1/day thing. Options to consider may be to reduce the die to 1d3 and force the second poison save, as that'd bring it closer to pre-existing design conventions - but obviously that's not mandatory. Of course, this gets positively scary for a colossal scorpion in any case... :)
Large - 1d6
Huge - 1d8
Garg - 2d6
Colossal - 3d6 (which drops to a pair of 2d6's if you reduce the dice and require the followup save)
Of course, the enormous bug would also have an extra CR of (at least) +3ish and the DC 33 fort saves aren't quite as formidable at level 15-17. Still pretty harsh though, but at least it offers the option for casters to use Iron Body and survive :)

I'm not entirely sure how to effectively calibrate the template without applying it to several creatures to see how they're affected, but I'd tend to think it'd be something like a +1 CR generally, with an additional +1 for each (1-2) size category(ies) larger than medium for the base creature. Obviously it benefits from situational mods even moreso than the base creature too - if it's in an acidic or acid-containing environment, obviously it has an edge against the non-immune. Characters can use abilities very effectively so it might be an idea to give it a LA of 3 of 4 but that can be a bit touchy too. Demented One and VT would really be better qualified to help you on this bit, as they've much more experience at it.
So anyhow, those are my thoughts on the revision :) Looking pretty sweet though, a little more polish and I can see myself Bloating some stuff to send at my party. They'll never see it coming, any more than the Bladevines or Cake Golems. :)

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I really like this template so I'm going to go over it and spic and span it all up and see how it goes.

[Ali]

Cool!!

It wouldn't have been as good without the help from fangthane though. (And a bit from Fizban, hee hee.)

Hope you enjoy going over it, Vorpal Tribble.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Alright, hows this look?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Bloated Creature

A Bloated Creature is a vermin that has become so acidic and poisonous that it throbs with the amount of filth inside it. A Bloated Creature’s favourite tactic in combat is to grapple its opponent and then melt it with poisonous acid, and if this fails it simply claws it to death.

Sample Bloated Creature

Bloated Monsterous Scorpion, Large
Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 5d8+20 (42 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d6+4 plus 1d6 acid)
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d6+4 plus 1d6 acid) and sting +1 melee (1d8+2 plus 1d6 acid plus poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d6+4 plus 1d6 acid, improved grab, inner filth, poison, vile bile
Special Qualities: Born of filth, darkvision 60 ft., immune to acid and poison, tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 18, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +8, Hide +0, Spot +4
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (sting)
Environment: Warm deserts
Organization: Solitary or colony (2–5)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: 6–9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

This enormous scorpion is surrounded by a carapace that seems lumpy and bloated. A foul-smelling liquid constantly seeps from the chinks in its natural armor. Its tail in particular looks horrendously swollen and oversized, the razor tip dripping continuously with venom.

Combat

Born of Filth (Ex): A bloated creature is immune to poison and makes saves against disease with a +6 bonus.

Constrict (Ex): A monstrous scorpion deals automatic claw damage on a successful grapple check.

Inner Filth (Ex): When a bloated scorpion reaches 0 hit points, or if it takes 50 or more points of damage in one strike, it explodes, spraying everything within 15 feet with acid. The targets take 8d6 acid damage. A successful reflex save halves (DC 16). This kills the bloated creature instantly.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a monstrous scorpion must hit with a claw attack.

Poison (Ex): A monstrous scorpion has a poisonous sting that deals 1d4 Con damage on a failed fortitude save (DC 18). The save DCs are Constitution-based. The indicated damage is initial and secondary damage.

Vile Bile (Ex): Once per day, if the scorpion has its foe in a grapple, it can force itself to vomit an enormous amount of acidic poison onto the foe. The target takes 3d6 acid damage and takes 1d6 Strength, Constitution and Dexterity damage. A successful fortitude save (DC 16) can be made to half the acid damage and resist the poison. This attack ends the grapple.

Skills: A monstrous scorpion has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Creating a Bloated Creature
"Bloated" is an inherited template that can be added to any vermin, hereafter referred to as the base creature.

Size and Type: The creature’s type does not change.

Special Attacks: A bloated creature retains all attacks of the base creature plus the following attacks.
Horrid (Ex): Any acid damage the base creature's natural attacks deal normally increases by one step. As well, the DC of the base creature's poison or disease increase by +2. These increases do not apply to any attack granted by this template.
Inner Filth (Ex): When a Bloated Creature reaches 0 hit points, or if it takes 50 or more points of damage in one strike, it explodes, spraying everything within 10 feet +1 foot per HD with acid. The target takes acid damage as listed on the table below. A successful reflex save halves (DC = 10 + half base creature's HD + Con modifier). This kills the bloated creature instantly.

Bloated Creature's Size   Acid Damage
Fine                      1d3           
Dimunitive                1d6           
Tiny                      2d6           
Small                     4d6           
Medium                    6d6           
Large                     8d6           
Huge                      10d6           
Gargantuan                12d6           
Colossal                  16d6

Noxious Coating (Ex): All melee attacks made by a Bloated Creature deals acid damage as listed on the table below in addition to its physical damage, due to the greasy, acidic substance covering it. Anything that attacks the Bloated Creature also takes this acid damage, including weapons. If the bloated creature's attack already deals acid damage, use whichever is greater.

Bloated Creature's Size   Acid Damage
Fine                      -           
Dimunitive                1           
Tiny                      1d2           
Small                     1d3           
Medium                    1d4           
Large                     1d6           
Huge                      1d8           
Gargantuan                2d6           
Colossal                  4d4

Vile Bile (Ex): Once per day, if the creature has its foe in a grapple, it can force itself to vomit an enormous amount of acidic poison onto the foe. The target takes acid and ability damage as listed on the table below. A successful fortitude save DC = 10 + half base creature's HD + Con modifier can be made to half the acid damage and resist the poison. This attack ends the grapple.

Bloated Creature's Size   Acid Damage   Ability Damage
Fine                      1d2           - Str, Con and Dex
Dimunitive                1d3           1 Str, Con and Dex
Tiny                      1d6           1d2 Str, Con and Dex
Small                     1d8           1d3 Str, Con and Dex
Medium                    2d6           1d4 Str, Con and Dex
Large                     3d6           1d6 Str, Con and Dex
Huge                      4d6           2d4 Str, Con and Dex
Gargantuan                4d8           3d4 Str, Con and Dex
Colossal                  6d8           4d4 Str, Con and Dex

Special Qualities: A bloated creature retains all the qualities of the base creature plus the following qualities.
Born of Filth (Ex): A bloated creature is immune to poison and makes saves against disease with a +6 bonus.
Immunity to Acid: Bloated Creatures have so much acid inside them, they have gained complete immunity to it.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Con +4
Feats: A bloated creature gains Improved Natural Attack (any) as a bonus feat. Otherwise same as the base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +3.
Level Adjustment: -

[Ali]

Fantabulous!!

Now people can easily apply the template to their vermin. Thanks, Vorpal Tribble.

[Fizban]

3d4 1 str

huh? 3d4+1 seems odd, maybe some formatting issues?

(DC = half base creature's HD plus Con modifier)

I think you forgot the usual base of 10 there.

Nice work both of you.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Gah... fixed. Thanks

Thanks, Vorpal Tribble.

Any time