Proposed Challenge: Tier 2 or Tier 1 Truenamer

[TabletopGamer]

Does anyone think they could take the concept of the Truenamer, maybe using words of power, invocations, etc. And Make a workable Tier2 or Tier1 Character.

I mean after all they are masters of the words of creation, their words literally warp reality to their favor right?

So does anyone think they can do it?

[anacalgion]

The bad news is I don't know truenaming well enough to do it myself, but the good news is yes. From what I do know, making a whole bunch of broken word invocation things shouldn't be too difficult, and if you rescale the Truenaming DCs and remove the rules about "your powers get more difficult the more you use them" and the other ones (which are escaping me), it should be pretty easy.

[TabletopGamer]

With both Truenamer and Words of Power they seem to lose versatility over time. Truenamer seriously suffers from Magikarp Power and Words of Power while cool and interesting doesn't have the kick that I would see in a Tier 2 or 1 in that it doesn't have powers that can do everything that other classes can do.

So I guess I should resay this "Can you make a balanced Tier 1 Truenamer that could be playable."

[DR27]

balanced Tier 1

Oxymoron

If you wanna be in the business of being Tier 1, just make a series of Utterances that range from a lower level limited wish, to limited wish, to wish, without the XP. Tier 1 done. But no real fun.

If you want balance, then shoot lower than Tier 1 (and probably lower than Tier 2)

Truenamers needed a defined role - oh wait, the author had one:

By choosing the path of the truenamer, you give up a degree of fl exibility compared to a spellcaster. You have a set of utterances and recitations you can make, and this set doesn’t change from day to day the way a wizard can change her arsenal of prepared spells. But because you aren’t casting spells, you don’t have to worry about spell slots, spell levels, or running out of your most precious resource.

That sounds much better than Tier 1 - you are a spellcaster who doesn't know all of their spells, and has unlimited uses. Use that as a design goal.

[TabletopGamer]

True

Well I would like something useful and I love the flavor of the class and its feel but it always seemed so weak and without a strong nitche. Warlocks do it better to be honest.

I like the shout design of the Dragonborn in Skyrim with a Whisper (First Word) being the power weak but useful, adding the second word increased its power and range while the third and final one made it something to be reckoned with.

A system of Utterances like that would be cool. Add utility words and the like, one word phrases for smaller effects two words for stronger ones and a full three words for things that replicate higher level spells without the need for them to be spells.

[Fako]

With both Truenamer and Words of Power they seem to lose versatility over time. Truenamer seriously suffers from Magikarp Power and Words of Power while cool and interesting doesn't have the kick that I would see in a Tier 2 or 1 in that it doesn't have powers that can do everything that other classes can do.

So I guess I should resay this "Can you make a balanced Tier 1 Truenamer that could be playable."

You're confusing "Tier" with "power". Tier reflects the overall flexibility that a class has, as well as how many different types of encounters they can contribute meaningfully to. Tier 1 classes not only have the ability to contribute to a wide variety of situations, but they can change their abilities on a daily basis.

Last I checked, a Truenamer isn't going to be swapping out the words they have learned daily, since part of the class is "limited list, unlimited uses". This kicks them out of Tier 1, leaving Tier 2 as the highest they can be in terms of flexibility. If you want to make them Tier 2, then make a lot more utterances: The key part here is options.

If you want to make the class more fun to play, I would personally suggest looking at old "fixes" for inspiration, taking what works and incorporating it. Here are my two personal favorites:
The Way Words Work by Kellus
Truenamer Fix by Kyuedo

[TabletopGamer]

I have Kyeudo's already.

Well here is the thing, To give them that ability that flexibility to change up their powers and abilities on the fly I would say if their system worked more like Words of Power which can be mixed to create new spells specifically for the situation would be a good thing for them.

Does anyone think thats possible? To mix utterances into the Words of Power to grant them better flexibility or should someone tag on a spell list solely used to use Words of Power?

[Fako]

I have Kyeudo's already.

Well here is the thing, To give them that ability that flexibility to change up their powers and abilities on the fly I would say if their system worked more like Words of Power which can be mixed to create new spells specifically for the situation would be a good thing for them.

Does anyone think thats possible? To mix utterances into the Words of Power to grant them better flexibility or should someone tag on a spell list solely used to use Words of Power?

I'm unsure of what Words of Power are, but check the Lexeme in Kellus' fix. Similar to the Erudite, they're allowed a specific number of unique abilities per day, from a list that they can expand upon similar to a spellbook. If you allow that option instead of Utterances Known, the truenamer gains a fair bit more flexibility.

[TabletopGamer]

Well I might have too, because Erudite is a favorite of mine, despite its quirks.

I was looking at this thread from SmiloDan from Paizo's forums
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nwj9?Ch...ized-Truenamer

That idea for 6 Lexicons and each having a distinct type and use with their own progression Might give a bit more flexibility to the class.

Also Spell-Like Abilities or Supernatural Powers they can use a number of times per day that mimick spells like Spidercrawl or something. Useful little tricks that can be helpful

I want to make them a class that can virtually adapt to any situation on a moments notice while still not having to worry about running their supplies into the ground.

[ArcturusV]

Wouldn't the fact that a Truenamer gets Gate pretty much mean they're already hitting tier 2ish at that point? With the ability to summon up... nigh anything... means he can do effectively... nigh anything. Which seems to e the definition of tier 1/2 in a nutshell.

[TabletopGamer]

That was why I mentioned Magikarp Power, they are near worthless till lvl 20. Everything they can do a Warlock or any other class like that can do better and easier.

I was actually thinking those 6 types of Lexi.. Schools of Truespeak?

[Ziegander]

Truenamers could be altered to act a bit more like Clerics in the sense that they don't actually know any Truespeak. Ever. But they can serve as a conduit for it. In that way they can "upload" information from the universe, so to speak, somewhat like Neo in the matrix, and "learn" new utterances and the like, possibly whenever they want, possibly only once per day, whatever makes the most sense/is the most playable.

[TabletopGamer]

Well I was thinking a system where they know all of their Utterances but can only actively recall words they focus on bringing forward in their memory to use. So like a Wizard with their spells each day. However They can spend an hour during the day recalling new Utterances in place of old ones to specialize as the day goes on. Perhaps a number of times per day as their Wisdom Modifer (Minimum 1) while their focus Ability is on Intelligence.

Truenamers (I may changed the name since this is almost an entirely new class) can memorize any word of Truespeak and add it to their subconscious which acts as their spellbook. The focus each day is to actively bring this known power to the forefront of their conscious mind.

This gives them a semi unique system all their own.

Also each of the 6 Lexicons would need 6 levels and a minimum 8-10 Utterances a level to allow for the Truenamer to have unique choices and perhaps a direct focus on 1 or 2 Lexicons like a Wizard's Specialty schools.

[Ziegander]

Well I was thinking a system where they know all of their Utterances but can only actively recall words they focus on bringing forward in their memory to use. So like a Wizard with their spells each day. However They can spend an hour during the day recalling new Utterances in place of old ones to specialize as the day goes on. Perhaps a number of times per day as their Wisdom Modifer (Minimum 1) while their focus Ability is on Intelligence.

Truenamers (I may changed the name since this is almost an entirely new class) can memorize any word of Truespeak and add it to their subconscious which acts as their spellbook. The focus each day is to actively bring this known power to the forefront of their conscious mind.

Yeah, sure, that works too. Sort of like Erudite casting. Works for me.

[TabletopGamer]

Ok New Challenge someone else do the 216 - 360 Utterances for the Lexicons (If each of the six had just six for six levels its 216 if they had ten its 360.)

Any other Ideas?

[Jormengand]

The Worldspeaker (as sigged by me) is probably low tier 2 or high tier 3.

In fact, when they're level 17 they have access to a ton of random Wishes in the same manner as the Truenamer, making them near enough T1.

There we go, one T2 truenamer. How? By actually giving it things equivalent to sorcerer spells.

[TabletopGamer]

Yes but didn't you basically just turn it into a Sorcerer and called it another name. I mean for lack of a better term it has spell progression spell levels, etc.

[qwertyu63]

I actually have a fix in the works that would get there. It is very WIP, but I'll throw some of it here:

I call it re-writing, and it is directly based around the use of words. There are 26 words, and you combine them to make the effect you want. An effect is built around a Verb-Noun pair, and can be enhanced with Adverbs. To make the DC easier to hit, you can attach Adjectives that match the target. Conjunctions just make things weird.

Spoiler: Skill

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-------------------------------------------------------Rewrite (Int):

Speaking to rewrite is an swift action by default.

The DC to speak a rewrite effect starts at 10. If the target of the effect is unwilling, the DC increases by 4 (magic items attended by unwilling targets count as unwilling). For each successful rewriting effect within the last 24 hours, increase the DC by 2 (failed attempts do not increase the DC). The DC also increases by 2 for every hit die the target has (magic items use their caster level).

In addition to your ranks in the skill and Int modifier, you get an untyped bonus on rewrite checks equal to the number of languages you know.

When you make a rewriting check, you must state the desired effect and what words you are using to make it. The DM is the final arbitrator of if your words fit. The effect has a base power level of +/-1 to rolls, 10' of movement or range, or 1d8 points of damage/healing. Effects have a base duration of 1 minute as a base and hit one target.
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Spoiler: Class

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Saves: Fort: Poor, Ref: Poor, Will: Good,
BAB: 3/4, Hit die: d6

Skills: Rewrite, Speak Language, Spot, Listen, Search, Bluff, Diplomacy, Craft, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive.
Points per level: 6+Int/level ([6+Int]*4 at first level)
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Weapon/Armor: All simple weapons, light armor, shields.

Re-writing:
You can re-write reality with just a few words. You learn and can use a pool of words for use in re-writing. This pool is called your lexicon. Your lexicon starts with 4 words in it at level 1, and expands by 1 word every level after that.

Re-writing focus (Ex):
You get +1 to all Rewrite checks for every Re-Writer level you have.

All-speaker (Ex):
You can make your self known to others. At every even numbered level, you learn another language.

Knowledgeable (Ex):
Your direct contact to the threads of the universe grant you an extended awareness. At every odd numbered level except the first, you receive, as a bonus feat, the Skill Focus feat for the Knowledge skill of your choice.
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Spoiler: Words

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Verbs: (States the desired effect)

Aeugo: Create, enhance, repair.
Infirmo: Destroy, reduce, break.
Defero: Sense, communicate, understand.
Tempero: Control, shape.
Permoveo: Teleport, move.
**Contraro: Rewind (Costs 100 XP to use).
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Nouns: (States the desired target)

Corpus: Body, living creatures.
Navitus: Energy, fire, wind, motion, magic.
Materius: Matter, stone, wood, metal, leather.
Mentus: Mind, thoughts, alignment.
Historia: Information, history.
**Animus: Soul, spirit (Costs 200 XP to use).
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Adverbs: (Makes speaking harder, increases the power)

Perpetus: Effect that would last for 1 min lasts for 3 min instead. (+4)
Longe: Effect that would hit one person hits up to 3 targets instead. (+4)
Potenter: Effect that uses +/-1, 10' or 1d8 instead uses +/-3, 30' or 3d8. (+4)
Cito: Effect is cast as a immediate action instead of swift action. (+4)
Remora: Effect takes place in 1 min instead of now. (+2)
**Imortalis: Effect lasts forever (Costs 500 XP to use). (+10)
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Adjective: (Makes speaking easier, must match target)

Amicus: Friend, ally, willing target, not the speaker. (-4)
Hostis: Enemy, foe, unwilling target. (-4)
Inanimis: Unliving, mindless target. (-2)
Ego: Me, the speaker. (-8)
Vos: You, touched target. (-2)
**Mundus: Everything, any target (Costs 50 XP to use). (-12)
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Conjunctions: (Combine/change effects, modify DC)

Si: If, an effect on a trigger. (+6)
Autem: And, two effects as one. (+15)
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Spoiler: Feats

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Expanded Lexicon:
Prereq: Re-writing class feature
Benefit: Add any word of your choice to your lexicon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you add a new word to your lexicon.
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Focused Lexicon:
Prereq: Re-writing class feature
Benefit: Choose a word in your lexicon. Any re-writing effect you attempt using that word have the DC reduced by 2.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different word.
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[Jormengand]

Yes but didn't you basically just turn it into a Sorcerer and called it another name. I mean for lack of a better term it has spell progression spell levels, etc.

No, I kept most of the truenamer stuff and gave it some half-decent utterances.

[Just to Browse]

What you appear to be looking for is a caster. Reflavor a sorcerer, wizard, erudite, or Psion.

Otherwise, I'd recommend the Sulin Sorcerer. Half the spells of the wizard per day (round down, 1 becomes 0 not -) and give access to all spells in core spontaneously. Researching like a wizard (Cha instead of Int on the spellcraft) lets them pick up non-core spells.

I believe the consensus was that the class wasn't quite strong enough in fights, but its flexibility was wonderful. The suggestion was more metamagic and reduced metamagic costs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes but didn't you basically just turn it into a Sorcerer and called it another name. I mean for lack of a better term it has spell progression spell levels, etc.

So does the Truenamer, really.

The easy way would be to rewrite the wizard to use skill-based casting. Instead of spells/day, you "prepare" X spells of each level, and have to make a DC Y Truename check to cast, with the DC going up each time you do so. Boom, done. (Also probably broken as crap, because either you have Truenamer level optimize-like-crazy-to-make-it-function DCs, or easily achievable DCs that become utterly irrelevant once you start optimizing).

[TabletopGamer]

Just to Browse: Can you link me to this Sulin Sorcerer never heard of it.

I do like your system qwertyu63 reminds me heavily of the words of Power which have Target Words, Effect Words, and Meta Words (Basically Metamagic effects)

Here is what I want, something to keep the fluff of the guy who can reality warp with just the power of his words, the guy who can utter a phrase and the world warp and change as command.

I honestly dont want a regular old spell caster class again, that system doesn't interest me much anymore.

I was thinking of maybe switching the system entirely to the Words of Power but Fix those, add new groups of words for Creation and a few other things to give them the range that spell casters have but with the feel and fluff of weaving magic on the spot.

[Just to Browse]

I don't think anyone ever wrote an actual Sulin Sorcerer --it's just an old name for full spontaneous core casting at the cost of 1/2 wiz spells/day.

I think it was on the old Gaming Den website which got taken down because [reasons I don't know].

[TabletopGamer]

what do you mean by Core casting?

[Network]

To answer to original question, I think Fako got it right : make enough utterances, and the Truenamer becomes tier 2. It may be a weak tier 2, because the mechanics for Truespeak are scrappy, but it's still doable.

Note that there are precedence of scrappy classes that received major homebrew support, yet didn't get fixed. Because these homebrews are compatible with both the original material and most of the class' fixes, they are actually more likely to see play. A Truename magic equivalent to Project Shadow would be really cool, wouldn't it?

[Jormengand]

what do you mean by Core casting?

You own all the core spells.

[TabletopGamer]

Core spells for what the Sorc/Wiz Spell list?

Hmm true but I want to make Truenamer a real worthwhile class without the ****ty weaknesses that not only made it Weak but also made it virtually unplayable.

[ArcturusV]

I haven't mucked around with Truenamer too much, can't say. Just one of those things I see mentioned a lot, have wanted to try but haven't really had an appropriate game to roll one up in and see how it works out on the practical side of life.

Because I find the Theorycrafting and the at the table results tend to be two different hings. *shrug*

I'm kinda surprised though that they never really did a tie in with the two other "Truename" sort of feats they already had out there, Words of Creation and Dark Speech. I imagine if I did get some practical play time with it, that'd probably be something high up on any sort of kitbash fix I'd make.

[TabletopGamer]

Here is an idea for a system, just thought up.

10 Letters to represent the magical schools
The 10th being Elemental school.
A second 26 Letters to represent one of the subschools. For Elemental this might be Fire, Water, Wood. For Conjuration this might be Creation or Enchantment Manipulator.

Now you would have a set of Letters apart from the magical schools and subschools that are Interchangeable allowing for flexibility not currently seen in the system.

Say the Letter for Fire is Ka and the letter for Elemental is Ton

So to cast a Fire Elemental magic you would have to add Katon to the words spoken to manifest a effect.

So if Bar and Soom where your first words
Bar having Enhancement as one of its meanings, where Soom has creation as one of its.

Katon Barsoom could be used to manifest a quick but not powerful, Bar and Soom have no enhancement or Metaletters attached to them to strength them from their lvl 1 position, Fireblast. But it has no target so this would be up to the GM to decide where the Manifestation struct.

Now if they used a Targetting Lettering such as Ki meaning selected, individual target, or Self. They could declare a target within the range of their manifestation.

So by speaking the word Katon Barsoomki the character could manifest a spontanous burst of fire at the target location or on the target person.
Again this for lack of a better word Invocation is not strengthened by a Meta Letter that would have granted Empower to it making it deal more then its small amount of damage.

Katon may not have to be actually spoken, simply an associated Word inside the intent, you after all do not have to call out the school of your spell when casting.

This idea is like two minutes old, not flushed out. Input desired.

[Network]

So... Truenamers are ninjas?