Player comforts?

[Tim Proctor]

Like how comfortable are they/you with situations?

As a GM/DM I've had PCs raped and I've kicked player out for raping NPCs (none of them have ever caused issue). It is very crowd and situationally specific but my question is how and when do people draw the line.

I brought up this post because there is a post about GMs changing backgrounds and such, where there is a possibility of rape, and the sexual desires of a character. I want to explore what makes an appropriate and inappropriate scenario.

[Themrys]

I would not be comfortable with my player character being raped, which is why I told the GM beforehand that no such thing ought to happen.

So, if you want to know, just ask the players, comfort levels are different. I do not want to play a rape victim, and the scenario is irrelevant for that.

NPCs who are raped offscreen (or maybe even with PCs present) are okay for me, in theory, but the scenario has to include demon-worshippers. Rape shall not be treated as something that happens only to women, and it shall not be treated as something that is to be expected if a woman is taken prisoner by men. It shall be treated as something that can only reasonably be expected to happen if someone is taken prisoner by worshippers of the love goddess' evil counterpart demon.
(I don't know whether such a demon exists in D&D, but rape is something that should, in my opinion, be reserved for the evilest of evil characters. It should not be used as wallpaper, in any case. The problem of rape as wallpaper is described here: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/03/rape-james-bond)


Now, in the case described in my character backstory thread, part of the problem was that the GM could not seem to decide whether a rape had taken place or not. He said that the woman (my PCs enemy) had bought a love potion and given it to my PCs love interest, and then they had sex, and she got pregnant, and PCs love interest was not happy about being told so, which, from my point of view, is absolutely understandable. Because he was raped.
The GM did not seem to think of this as rape, and thought the PCs could have found out about the love potion by asking harmless questions to the town alchemist. When I pointed out that the only kind of love potion that could, by any sensible law, be legal, would be the kind that only influences whether a person wants to have sex, in general, not with whom, he backpedalled and said it was that kind of potion ... which does not really fit into the story as a whole, which implied that it was a "attracts a person to a specific other person" kind of magic.

Now, magic does not exist in real life, but such scenarios are dangerously close to "If no physical violence was used, it isn't rape", and I therefore think they're inappropriate.

[tensai_oni]

My various games had people at various comfort levels. Some had rape and such, others didn't even have any sexual content at all, even consensual. There's also stuff like torture, generally dark or hopeless themes, etc. It varied game by game and also depending on who I play with.

I play by three rules:
1. In terms of controversial content, everyone knows what to expect BEFORE the game starts, and I know what they're comfortable with or not. I never introduce things I know players aren't comfortable with
2. The game defaults to the lowest acceptable level of controversial content. Forget majority votes, forget golden mean. If one person doesn't want something, even if six others don't mind? That thing's not appearing
3. A player is not "better" or "worse" for having a higher or a lower comfort level

[Tim Proctor]

I would not be comfortable with my player character being raped, which is why I told the GM beforehand that no such thing ought to happen.

So, if you want to know, just ask the players, comfort levels are different. I do not want to play a rape victim, and the scenario is irrelevant for that.

NPCs who are raped offscreen (or maybe even with PCs present) are okay for me, in theory, but the scenario has to include demon-worshippers. Rape shall not be treated as something that happens only to women, and it shall not be treated as something that is to be expected if a woman is taken prisoner by men. It shall be treated as something that can only reasonably be expected to happen if someone is taken prisoner by worshippers of the love goddess' evil counterpart demon.
(I don't know whether such a demon exists in D&D, but rape is something that should, in my opinion, be reserved for the evilest of evil characters. It should not be used as wallpaper, in any case. The problem of rape as wallpaper is described here: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/03/rape-james-bond)


Now, in the case described in my character backstory thread, part of the problem was that the GM could not seem to decide whether a rape had taken place or not. He said that the woman (my PCs enemy) had bought a love potion and given it to my PCs love interest, and then they had sex, and she got pregnant, and PCs love interest was not happy about being told so, which, from my point of view, is absolutely understandable. Because he was raped.
The GM did not seem to think of this as rape, and thought the PCs could have found out about the love potion by asking harmless questions to the town alchemist. When I pointed out that the only kind of love potion that could, by any sensible law, be legal, would be the kind that only influences whether a person wants to have sex, in general, not with whom, he backpedalled and said it was that kind of potion ... which does not really fit into the story as a whole, which implied that it was a "attracts a person to a specific other person" kind of magic.

Now, magic does not exist in real life, but such scenarios are dangerously close to "If no physical violence was used, it isn't rape", and I therefore think they're inappropriate.

I agree with a lot of what you said but why does it have to be demons? If a lot of games are based off pantheonic gods then Zues, Odin, and Neptune raped a bunch of ladies. In fact a high priest of Athena was raped in the temple to Athena by Neptune and Athena banished her making her so ugly she turned people that looked at her to stone. This is the Medusa story, and I think an interesting point of Greek culture. I am not saying that 'rape' is good, it is horrible and despicable and we should test chemicals on sex offenders instead of animals, but it is a very big issue in culture and I thin role-playing with the right culture/group is the right way to better understand it. Thoughts?

[Rhynn]

Thoughts?

This is a topic where you probably shouldn't question the specific preferences of any person...

[Tim Proctor]

This is a topic where you probably shouldn't question the specific preferences of any person...

Why are serial killers and demonic cults that sacrifice babies okay, but rape not?

That's part of the question, what makes things 'just wrong' versus 'i can play that'. They happen in real life, and are fluent in mythology, and RPGing is about exploring that aspect. I am not saying rape, murder, infanticide, etc. is okay, its is horrible and I hope people that do those things can take an acid bath. I am asking the question because people are fervent about it for a reason, and I want to understand more about why, and why they don't want to discuss it?

[Rhynn]

Why are serial killers and demonic cults that sacrifice babies okay, but rape not?

Seriously?

How many survivors of serial murder and demonic cults are there in real life?

How many rape survivors are there?

It's not that hard to figure out.

[Lorsa]

I haven't yet reached the point where I am uncomfortable in a game by any single event. I have been unfomfortable with the game as a whole though, the sum of a lot of situations when they've pushed my character into a pit (figuratively speaking) that I feel I can't or don't want to portray. A character that experiences strong negative emotions over a large number of sessions with no hope of getting better isn't fun for me.

When I GM I am very careful when testing my players' boundaries and often let them take the first steps into potentially uncomfortable subjects. It's just safer that way.

[Tim Proctor]

Seriously?

How many survivors of serial murder and demonic cults are there in real life?

How many rape survivors are there?

It's not that hard to figure out.

More than you think obviously... and not everyone is a rape victim/survivor so its obviously not a personal issue. Its like having a cancer survivor fight a cancer mage in 3.5, it isn't going to cross any lines. But the sexual/power issue do, and I am curious why.

[tensai_oni]

There are two kinds of situations that happen in RPGs too often:

1. The game master singles out a female character, or a character played by a female player, as the rape victim. Any OOC protests will be met with the ever-present excuse of "muh realism".

Or

2. The game master says that in his (and it's almost always his, yes) setting, rape is commonplace because it's Realistic and Historically Accurate (TM). And if you don't like it, it means you have delicate 21st century sensibilities and should leave the game.

So unless you get a permission from every and all player that they are absolutely 100% okay with in-character rape - don't do it. It makes you look bad and your game look bad too.

Also when you look at people who were sexually harassed in the past or under a threat of sexual harassment (not just rape victims, that's like saying only murder victims can dislike murder), it's suddenly quite a big number. Especially if you add their friends and relatives who obviously have an issue with it too.

[Kalmageddon]

I'm not so much bothered by the situations but by the level of detail that goes into it.
Anything can happen, even the most gruesome, terribile and tragic stuff, you just need to handle it tastefully and warn beforehand that this sort of things can happen in that campaign.

If I signed up for a horror game then I'm prepared to have my character die horribly or be forever traumatized, but if I signed for a classic fantasy adventure I would guess that the worst thing that can happen would be death in combat and I would be bothered if more heavy stuff was thrown at me without warning.

Basically, everything needs to have context, not go into morbid details and the players must know how far the campaign could go in nightmare fuel territory.

[Tengu_temp]

2. The game master says that in his (and it's almost always his, yes) setting, rape is commonplace because it's Realistic and Historically Accurate (TM). And if you don't like it, it means you have delicate 21st century sensibilities and should leave the game.

Actually the "should leave the game" part is true, just not for the reason the game master envisioned.

[Themrys]

Seriously?

How many survivors of serial murder and demonic cults are there in real life?

How many rape survivors are there?

It's not that hard to figure out.

This.

Also, you don't seem to understand why it has to be demon worshippers. Let me explain: demon worshippers are evil by definition, and if they are found out by the heroes, they're usually killed. If they are not killed immediately, they will be killed in the future. They can not get away with it ... they will pay with their souls, if not their lives.

In addition, the game I usually play, DSA, has a gender-equal society, where there are two possibilities: Either, everybody who gets taken prisoner by bandits is raped.
Or: The idea to use sexuality to torture people is so alien to most people that it is just not done. It's like eating babies, or skinning people alive. Some very, very evil people might do it, but not your common highwayman or -woman.

Gods? Evil by definition? Not so much. Not even Zeus, I'm afraid, although he (and the other rapist gods) absolutely should be.


You can play what you want (if you find people who want to play with you), but I neither think that I need to understand rape better, nor do I think I need it to have fun in a roleplaying game. Unless, that is, I feel the desire to kill some rapists. In which case demon-worshipper-rapists will do just fine.
(To be honest, I don't think you can understand rape better by roleplaying it just the way it is in real life.)

[valadil]

Not down with the rape. I did that to a PC in my first campaign. Big mistake. He still gives me crap for it and almost didn't take up my next invitation to a game because of it. It didn't even add to the game, I was just trying to be edgy. Ugh.

I don't usually feel comfortable doing romance in games. I can't put my finger on why. I don't follow up on romance plots and I don't push them on my players.

I like moral dilemmas. These can make players uncomfortable. I especially like finding that distinction between player's morals and his PC's, and walking all over it.

I especially like pushing my players buttons. If I find something that pisses them off outside of game, I'll write up an NPC that embodies it. Ultimately, this usually means they get to blow off some steam murderizing that NPC, but until then their interactions will be less than pleasant.

[oudeis]

Raping a PC in a game, male or female, is grounds for a real-life ass-beating. There's such a thing as too much realism in games. You have just turned the character into a victim- de-heroicized the character- without the player's consent. Before anyone brings up Red Sonja, the original character did not have the rape/Revenge Goddess aspect to her. That was added by Marvel comics.

[Kalmageddon]

Seriously?

How many survivors of serial murder and demonic cults are there in real life?

How many rape survivors are there?

It's not that hard to figure out.

So it's just a number thing?
I would have said that what is ok to throw at the players should be considered on a person-by-person basis, but if you say it like this then you are sort of implying that the suffering of some people is more important then the suffering of others.

Raping a PC in a game, male or female, is grounds for a real-life ass-beating.

Oh yes. Delicious.
Progressive mindset at its finest. "OH you had an imaginary character raped? I'll phisically assault you to teach you a lesson!".

What. The. ****.
Check your priorities.

[captpike]

So unless you get a permission from every and all player that they are absolutely 100% okay with in-character rape - don't do it. It makes you look bad and your game look bad too.

this, either everyone has no problems with it, or you leave it alone, anything else will cause too many OOC problems to be worth it in a game

there is no good reason why rape is worse then murder, it is a purely cultural (meaning propaganda) thing, that means you can't counter it with reason.

changing someone's mind is hard changing how they feel about something is all but impossible.

[Rhynn]

So it's just a number thing?
I would have said that what is ok to throw at the players should be considered on a person-by-person basis, but if you say it like this then you are sort of implying that the suffering of some people is more important then the suffering of others.

No, what I said is that you shouldn't question people on their preferences on this issue. The reasons for this are pretty obvious.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm of the camp that there is no such thing as a line for me that can be crossed. I'm also of the mindset that the right group can maturely and tastefully approach, examine, deconstruct or what have you any taboo topic.

But I also understand that isn't everyone's cup of tea and I respect people have issues with it. I don't respect when people try to call the morals of those who don't have such hang ups into question though.

[Kalmageddon]

I'm of the camp that there is no such thing as a line for me that can be crossed. I'm also of the mindset that the right group can maturely and tastefully approach, examine, deconstruct or what have you any taboo topic.

But I also understand that isn't everyone's cup of tea and I respect people have issues with it. I don't respect when people try to call the morals of those who don't have such hang ups into question though.

I fully agree.
The bolded part happens a little bit too often on this forum, I might add...

[Slipperychicken]

Most things should be fine, as long as you aren't being a creep about it, and try to clear things up before the game starts. Talk to each player separately about the type of game they want to play (which is also a good opportunity to find out what kind of game your group prefers), humor level, ask if they have any triggers, if there are any topics they would rather avoid in-game. Respect your players wishes too; if one of your players doesn't want to discuss a certain topic in-game, then don't bring it up.


My personal preference:

Spoiler

Show

@Rape: It's okay for it to exist in the gameworld and happen to NPCs offscreen, but I don't want to roleplay a rape victim, and I definitely don't want to participate in someone's immature power fantasy. Even when it happens in game AND it's not a result of people being creepy AND everyone's cool with it, then you should still "fade to black" and not go into detail.

[Tim Proctor]

I neither think that I need to understand rape better, nor do I think I need it to have fun in a roleplaying game. Unless, that is, I feel the desire to kill some rapists.

I'm not saying that people need to understand rape better in any way. I'm asking the question why it is an issue in some venues instead of others? NO ONE SHOULD DO SOMETHING THAT MAKES ANOTHER FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE.

What is it about a venue that makes rape, infanticide, etc. okay? The what makes it wrong is rather self-explanatory.

Also in many cultures 'demon' doesn't mean evil, Socrates believed he was visited by a demon and it gave him secrets of the universe (as in many ancient Indian stories), and they are believed to be 'spirits' other than divine, but not necessarily evil. The Djinn in Judaic/Islamic tradition are another fine example of this. But that isn't the point of this thread.

[NichG]

I would say its not about the chance of presenting the topic to someone who has personally been affected by it at all. There are lots of things I have 'been affected by' negatively, and none of them would matter one whit to me OOC if they came up in a game. Its not about that.

Instead, think about what a DM focusing on certain things says to the group about that DM personally. Like it or not, it can be very hard on both sides of the screen to separate 'what is in the DM's world' with 'the DM's personal values'. This often manifests in morality/alignment arguments, for example - when the paladin falls because of something the DM finds personally objectionable rather than something that is fall-worthy by the rules, the DM has just weakened that line between 'thats how the world works' and 'this is what I believe'.

For violence, its (for better or worse) basically part and parcel of the genre. We talk about 'murderhobos' and so on without batting an eye, because the game as a whole kind of pushes that violent agenda. So if a DM puts in a combat, we don't think 'this means the DM is a violent person' or 'this means the DM likes violence'. Its also, for better or worse, generally socially acceptable to be entertained by violence.

Now if you take this and the DM suddenly introduces rape, that has the potential to communicate a very strong signal about the DM (falsely perhaps, but that doesn't make it any less damaging). Maybe not 'the DM is a rapist' or whatever, but that the DM has some fascination or interest in exploring the subject. That means its no longer about what the characters in the game experience, because someone sitting across the table in real life might be proving themselves to be a very unpleasant or even threatening person.

Now, do I think that a DM putting a rape in the game makes them a rapist or likely rapist? Not really. Almost all of the time it will just be 'hey, we've covered these other topics, this is a scary/nasty thing I can put in to make a villain stand out' or whatever. And for very mature groups that know each other and trust each other to handle the topic maturely, that can end up not being a huge disaster.

But, I'm not surprised that it would make lots of players uncomfortable, especially if it came out of nowhere. Especially if its the DM singling out a player and saying 'your character was raped' or 'your character is being raped'. It sends a strong and threatening signal IRL, and that has to trump any considerations of game realism or whatever.

[oudeis]

Oh yes. Delicious.
Progressive mindset at its finest. "OH you had an imaginary character raped? I'll phisically assault you to teach you a lesson!".

What. The. ****.
Check your priorities.

Progressive? You give me too much credit, sir. This is old-fashioned machismo.
This is a power game, pure and simple, and I will not tolerate it. If I want my character to be raped, it will be in the backstory or in a plotline that I initiate in conjunction with the GM. I played in a Vampire LARP many years ago where one of the younger players had his well thought-out and well-played character get violated by another character in front of a group. The player walked out and stayed away for 3-6 months. Before you say that he was overreacting, I'll tell you that there are details here that are not mine to tell but the aggressor knew exactly what the effect would be and did it for exactly that reason.

Did you ever read this post in the PsychoDM thread? The GM was clearly getting off on his little power trip and the players quite rightly called him out.

[Mr Beer]

It comes down to what you and your players are cool with. I've had villains threaten rape twice in many years of gaming but that's when I knew the players would be cool with it. I wouldn't describe it happening and I probably wouldn't be OK with my character being raped and I certainly wouldn't be OK with a GM looking like he/she liked the idea.

That said, if you're a group of sadomasochists and want a game with wall-to-wall graphic rape and torture, go for it. It takes all sorts.

[Kalmageddon]

Progressive? You give me too much credit, sir. This is old-fashioned machismo.
This is a power game, pure and simple, and I will not tolerate it. If I want my character to be raped, it will be in the backstory or in a plotline that I initiate in conjunction with the GM. I played in a Vampire LARP many years ago where one of the younger players had his well thought-out and well-played character get violated by another character in front of a group. There are details here that are not mine to tell but the upshot was that that character disappeared and the player stayed away for 3-6 months.

Did you ever read this post in the PsychoDM thread? The GM was clearly getting off on his little power trip and the players quite rightly called him out.

It's not machismo. It's criminal behaviour. You can go to jail if you deliver a "real life ass-beating" on someone. And I would personally doubt of your common sense, sanity and moral values if you think that a character in a tabletop game being raped justifies real-life phyisical assault on the GM.

It doesn't matter why a GM puts rape into a campaign, if it is for legitimate drama or because he likes to jerk off to it at night, if you answer with pyhisical violence you are wrong and that's it.
It's not hard to figure out. And I was being sarcastic calling you "progressive".
Caveman would be more appropriate.

You should just let this slide before you embarass yourself further.

[Mr Beer]

Raping a PC in a game, male or female, is grounds for a real-life ass-beating.

Physically attacking someone because they offended you in a game is generally a bad idea. There are numerous real life consequences to such behaviour and pretty much all of them are negative.

[oudeis]

It's not machismo. It's criminal behaviour. You can go to jail if you deliver a "real life ass-beating" on someone. And I would personally doubt of your common sense, sanity and any moral values if you think that a character in a tabletop game being raped justifies real-life phyisical assault on the GM.

It doesn't matter why a GM puts rape into a campaign, if it is for legitimate drama or because he likes to jerk off to it at night, if you answer with pyhisical violence you are wrong and that's it.
It's not hard to figure out. And I was being sarcastic calling you "progressive".
Caveman would be more appropriate.

You should just let this slide before you embarass yourself further.

Thanks for the concern, but it'd take a lot more than what you've come up with to make me feel embarrassed.

PS- I was editing the post you quoted to give a little more detail when you quoted it. I was not trying to materially change it.

[Amaril]

I would only ever, ever, ever involve one of my PCs in a rape scene, or have their character be threatened with rape, if that player had specifically asked me to do so for the sake of character development (not that I can imagine many players who I would trust to do this and handle it maturely), and if the entire group had agreed without reservation that they were 100% ok with exploring the concept of sexual violence during the campaign. And even then, I'd probably say no, and seriously reconsider whether or not that player was a good fit for my table. I really can't imagine myself being able to handle that subject matter in a way that was sensitive and understanding to how horrible it is in real life, and also genuinely benefited character development, because doing that is difficult. It's like making a character with the intent to make them a Mary Sue--there are a few storytellers who are capable enough to handle it well, and you may even be one of them, but do not assume that this is the case. Almost all the time, it's not worth the consequences of screwing it up.

Even if I had a player who asked me to do something like this with their character, and I decided that I'd be willing to go along with it, there's no way in hell that I'd describe the completed rape scene on-camera, so to speak. No. F*** no. The closest I'd ever approach to something like that is cutting away before it happens with the strong implication that it does.

With regard to NPCs, I'd be ok with demonstrating that a particular NPC has been raped in the past, but if I do this, you can be damn sure the monster who did it to them is the villain the PCs are supposed to be tracking down and bringing to justice, and I'm doing it to emphasize just how evil this person is.

As a player, I might be willing to approach the issue, but only with a DM who I trusted completely to handle it in a mature manner. My current DM...yes, I probably would trust him to explore it, although I don't believe for a second he would ever want to (that's not really his style).

It's not that I don't believe addressing the issues of rape and sexual violence can help to add realism and depth to your world and characters--it's just that I have little faith in the ability of most storytellers to do it in a way that actually does this. If you can demonstrate to me that you actually are one of those skilled few, well, then you have my respect.

If anything I've just written causes any offense to anyone for any reason, you have my sincere apologies. I know this is a sensitive topic, and I honestly meant no insult or disrespect to anyone here.

[Tanuki Tales]

Physically attacking someone because they offended you in a game is generally a bad idea. There are numerous real life consequences to such behaviour and pretty much all of them are negative.

Mind you, we do always end up getting a Lanky Bugger-esque story and thread out of it.