Tier 3-4 challenge: Arcane Caster that "feels like a wizard"

[johnbragg]

So I'm looking for a caster that's a lot like the Wizard and/or Sorcerer, but trading off high-level spells for lots and lots of low-level spells.

If anyone cares why I'm looking,

Spoiler

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I'm an old fart, (40) and I'd like to get some of my old fart friends who've played in the past to play. Anyone who's played knows the problem with 1st level wizards and six seconds of being useful. (Unless the monsters make their saving throw, in which case you were totally useless.) Anyone who's played a mid- to high-level campaign knows the issue of spellcaster dominance.

But my attempt at a fix is crashing. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326

Elements I was using:
1. Characters start by studying huge, bulky books in dusty libraries, but can learn to cast spontaneously. (Spell Mastery feat)
2. Spell mastery of (Caster level) * (Int bonus) spell levels.
3. Power points-based casting. (2 PP per level)
4. Spells increase in cost exponentially (2^N). No daily access to high level spells.
5. Spellcraft reduces the cost of spells by 1 for a 10-or-better, 2 for 20-or-better, 3 for 30-or-better.
6. Spells you are high-enough level to cast, but don't have the power points for, take multiple days to cast (or multiple casters working together)

Gory details:

Spoiler

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I probably have created a character-type who is useful-but-not-overwhelming at level 10, 15 with oodles of at-will first level spells, ample access to second level spells, solid access to third level spells, and higher level spells prepared on scrolls.

But he's just overpowered at low levels. With Spellcraft maxed (18 Int, Skill Focus +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Knowledge ARcana synergy +2 at 2nd level) he's firing off 1st level spells with only a 1-in-3 chance of spending a Power Point.

At 5th level, he has 1st level spells at-will. (Spellcraft 19 +d20) That really wasn't what I intended--he has the RAW ability to have mage armor and shield always on, 7 other first level spells (and 8 cantrips) at will, and if I were building him starting at 5th level, he'd have the option to have 20 1st level spells at will, but no 2nd or 3rd level spells, using his Power Points for metamagic shenanigans.

Meanwhile, if he had a 16 INT instead of 18, he'd have half as many spell levels to cast spontaneously.

TLDR spoiler: It's a total mess.

[Xaotiq1]

You may want to take a look at Green Ronin's True20 Adept. Actually, in the core book, there's info about making classes. You could make a medium power progression class and make a list of feats (feats are tantamount to class features in that game sneak attack, etc) that fits the bill. It's a great system that you can bring up to speed in 3.x very easily.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Make another class along the lines of the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, focusing on transmutation and conjuration spells. (Not summons, though). Write a sizable-but-ultimately-limited spell list, and only pick non-broken spells.

[JoshuaZ]

Possible options:

1. Remove more of the problematic spells. This is a little difficult because there are so many and even without a lot of the problematic spells (grease, wish, etc.) the sheer number of options also pushes them greatly to being T1.

2. Maximize the number of spells you can learn from a level beyond your basic 2 per a level. Something like after that, you can have a total of level* int modifier total spell levels known. So for example, if you are a level 3 wizard with an int mod of 4, you could learn up to 12 spell levels, so something like 12 level 1 spells or say 2 level 2 spells and a 8 level 1 spells and so on. This may be not enough so possibly doing the same thing divided by 2.

3. Increase the cost and resources it takes to learn new spells. Possibly make it require high spellcraft checks or have it require gp. Unfortunately, this is difficult to balance well.

4. Slow down spell level progression. Something closer to what sorcerers have. But one level may not be a enough. If one instead pushed it two levels down this might help. But this will be a problem at early levels since it will mean that wizards will quickly run out of spells.

It is possible also that some combination of these will do a better job where one will not.

[Amnoriath]

So I'm looking for a caster that's a lot like the Wizard and/or Sorcerer, but trading off high-level spells for lots and lots of low-level spells.

If anyone cares why I'm looking,

Spoiler

Show

I'm an old fart, (40) and I'd like to get some of my old fart friends who've played in the past to play. Anyone who's played knows the problem with 1st level wizards and six seconds of being useful. (Unless the monsters make their saving throw, in which case you were totally useless.) Anyone who's played a mid- to high-level campaign knows the issue of spellcaster dominance.

But my attempt at a fix is crashing. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326

Elements I was using:
1. Characters start by studying huge, bulky books in dusty libraries, but can learn to cast spontaneously. (Spell Mastery feat)
2. Spell mastery of (Caster level) * (Int bonus) spell levels.
3. Power points-based casting. (2 PP per level)
4. Spells increase in cost exponentially (2^N). No daily access to high level spells.
5. Spellcraft reduces the cost of spells by 1 for a 10-or-better, 2 for 20-or-better, 3 for 30-or-better.
6. Spells you are high-enough level to cast, but don't have the power points for, take multiple days to cast (or multiple casters working together)

Gory details:

Spoiler

Show

I probably have created a character-type who is useful-but-not-overwhelming at level 10, 15 with oodles of at-will first level spells, ample access to second level spells, solid access to third level spells, and higher level spells prepared on scrolls.

But he's just overpowered at low levels. With Spellcraft maxed (18 Int, Skill Focus +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Knowledge ARcana synergy +2 at 2nd level) he's firing off 1st level spells with only a 1-in-3 chance of spending a Power Point.

At 5th level, he has 1st level spells at-will. (Spellcraft 19 +d20) That really wasn't what I intended--he has the RAW ability to have mage armor and shield always on, 7 other first level spells (and 8 cantrips) at will, and if I were building him starting at 5th level, he'd have the option to have 20 1st level spells at will, but no 2nd or 3rd level spells, using his Power Points for metamagic shenanigans.

Meanwhile, if he had a 16 INT instead of 18, he'd have half as many spell levels to cast spontaneously.

TLDR spoiler: It's a total mess.

Well first I say make the book more special rather than typical vancian casting have them imbue spell power in the book and do not restrict how often they prepare spells. However use a sort of spell point system which pays the equal amount of points to spell level. The maximum ought to be in the ball park of 2(1/2 caster+int. modifier restricted by wizard level). I would also consider a mechanic of the Helenic Sorceress. This 3rd party paizo class never gains access to higher level spells after 4 but can put them in higher slots for saves and bypassing anit-magic effects.
As for the spontaneous casting part I would say limit it to certain spells over the levels, call them memorized arcana or something like that. Not only would you not need to prepare them but you wouldn't need to reference them either.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-...enic-sorceress

[Quellian-dyrae]

I did a class once that might fit the bill for this: The Scholar.

[Starmage21]

Play a warlock.

[JoshuaZ]

Play a warlock.

The fluff is very different and even with refluffing it is very hard to make a warlock feel like a scholar who studies all sorts of magic.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Make another class along the lines of the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, focusing on transmutation and conjuration spells. (Not summons, though). Write a sizable-but-ultimately-limited spell list, and only pick non-broken spells.

I'm going to have to echo this. The Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and even Warmage did it right- distilling the wizard, whose strength is in its variety of spells, into a more focused class that only casts from one school.

[Just to Browse]

The trouble with making a class that has access to all character options, even at harshly limited usage rates, is that they can still be awesome if they dive through enough splats or pick level-independent spells.

In most campaigns, invisibility rocks for casters because people don't tend to walk around with true seeing very often. Blinding spittle is low-level and still stupidly good at high levels because no one prepares for blindness and average touch AC scales down as you get to higher-CR enemies. Benign transposition will always switch the tank with the mage, no matter what level you're at.

What you need is a drastically reduced spell list. And not the spell list of a dread necro or beguiler (which also go to crazytown at high levels and get extra flexibility), and you probably shouldn't even use the healer or warmage if you want to stop casting options from being OP. You need really nerfed classes like the magikarp of a mage RoC wrote or the SRD adept (the latter is probably too strong).

EDIT: For a class to "feel like a wizard", I think you need the following:

• An emphasis on using the spellbook. Maybe he can use it to cast in combat, instead of those ridiculous spell components (I mean, bat guano for a fireball? That's just a bad joke.)
• Flashy spells, like lightning bolt and fireball. They can be horribly deformed versions, but shooting elemental wrath is key to wizardness.
• magic missile
• Weak utility. Faster travel times, knowing true north, and other things that would mimic DC 10-15 skill checks.
• An emphasis on knowledge skills. Somehow.
• Magical identification. Good thing there's a spell for that.

[JoshuaZ]

What if you made a class that used a spellbook just like a wizard, used the core sorcerer/wizard list had wizard bonus feats but had spells at a lower progression, topping out at say 7th level? The slower progression and lack of some of the more game-breaking stuff might help balance things out.

One could use the following table and try that out:



{table=head]{colsp=9}Proposed Spells Per a Day
Level| 0| 1st| 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th |

6th

|

7th

1|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|6|3|1|-|-|-|-|-
5|6|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
6|6|4|3|-|-|-|-|-
7|6|4|3|1|-|-|-|-
8|6|4|3|2|-|-|-|-
9|6|5|4|3|-|-|-|-
10|6|5|4|3|1|-|-|-
11|6|5|4|3|2|-|-|-
12|6|6|5|4|3|-|-|-
13|6|6|5|4|3|1|-|-
14|6|6|5|4|3|2|-|-
15|6|6|6|5|4|3|-|-
16|6|6|6|5|4|3|1|-
17|6|6|6|5|4|3|2|-
18|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|-
19|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|-
20|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|1
[/table]

This will make one not get many of the late-game breaking stuff, and will slow down enough of the other things that they come online substantially later. The slight increase in total number of low level spells will help deal with the fact that this would otherwise make it even easier for wizards to run out of spells too early. If this progression is too slow, one could add 0s at the obvious places.

[Just to Browse]

That will not work.

Game-breaking stuff (lvls 3-6):

Spoiler

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{table]Level|Name
3|fly
3|stinking cloud
3|deep slumber
3|wind wall
3|haste
3|suggestion
4|black tentacles
4|solid fog
4|greater invisibility
4|animate dead
4|polymorph
4|minor creation
5|break enchantment
5|cloudkill
5|lesser planar binding
5|teleport
5|wall of stone
5|dominate person
5|hold monster
5|cone of cold wall of force
5|fabricate
5|telekinesis
5|permanency
6|acid fog
6|planar binding
6|wall of iron
6|true seeing
6|geas\quest
6|mass suggestion
6|contingency
6|move earth
[/table]

You cannot grant free reign to a caster over something as vast and poorly-controlled as the sorcerer list. Scaling their spells more slowly does not stop metamagic tricks, skill-ignoring spells (e.g. knock, jump), and it doesn't even stop them from getting broken things. All it does is make wizards feel weak along a bigger range of levels.

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. Yeah, you are right. I was thinking that the delay would do enough but the delay isn't by itself enough. (Although I think some of the ones you gave are not nearly as powerful at the levels they come online with given such a delay. Deep Slumber is the obvious example.)

Hmm, what about the delay, restrict to core and kill Greater Invisibility, Contingency, Permanency. and Polymorph(or maybe replace it with the Pathfinder version?). Give Cloudkill, Fog Cloud and Solid Fog, a range of close. Change Fly's duration to rounds/level. Change teleport so that it has range 1000 feet/level. Change Wind Wall so that arrows going through instead of being outright blocked take a -10 penalty to the attack roll. Bump the spell level up by one of everything else on your list.

Other changes: All the skill avoiding spells like knock need to be changed. This will require a more systematic change, but essentially they should do things like add caster level to the check.

[johnbragg]

EDIT: An even bigger idea. If scrolls for sale did not exist, would the Wizard still be Tier 1?

My "big idea" is to drastically restrict access to the higher-level spells, with the tradeoff being free access to some first level spells, starting at the level you "should" be getting 4th or 5th level spells. The mechanic is using Power Points, and exponential growth in the cost of spells.

What I want is, at 7th level, you could add Polymorph to your "spontaneous" list, but casting it once blows most of your Power Points for the day, or you could bump 4 1st level spells from your "spontaneous" list to your "free casting" list, and walk around with Mage Armor and Shield always on, and Magic Missile and Unseen Servant at will.

At 9th level, you just can't spontaneously cast teleport. You don't have that many Power Points in a day. You need to sit down and scribe it in a scroll, which takes a couple of days.

I"m dumping the "Skillcraft discount" mechanic from my Spellmaster, now I have to screw around with the Power Points and the growth in spell costs to see if I can get the balance "right" at different levels.

EDIT: Some spells would have to be adjusted/houseruled, but I think that list should be kept down to 10 adjustments or less. Now, "Any spell that duplicates a Skill check is limited at 1st level to +CL" would count as one adjustment.

All it does is make wizards feel weak along a bigger range of levels.

Wizards feeling weak isn't a big problem, I think. The problem is/was wizards feeling *useless* and therefore bored. And unlimited cantrip shenanigans solves that problem. Mage hand wielding (well, flailing) a sword to give the fighter a +2 "aid another" bonus! Dazzle the beastie for a -1 to attacks for the rest of the combat! [i]Mage hand[i] to carry a hooded cloak into the woods, then dancing lights inside the cloak and [i]mage hand[i] again to animate the cloak! Cantrips rule! OR just acid splash/ray of frost/spark of flame if you want to be boring.

[Xerlith]

I felt obliged to point to this.

[johnbragg]

I felt obliged to point to this.

Thanks. I will have to digest that.

[Just to Browse]

If the wizard does not get places to scribe new spells, he becomes Tier 2. Still broken options, just not all of them.

Your "big idea" will not fix wiz/sorc down to Tier 3-4 by itself, because unless you restrain the actual access of the spells, then you're still allowing players to take broken options. Decreasing their number of uses is encouraging the 5-minute workday, and it's toxic to the adventuring dynamic.

If I have to spend 3 days to scribe teleport before casting it, then I will do that and then use it and be more useful than the fighter. If it takes 2 days to cast polymorph, I will go through the adventure using the fighter as a meatshield and then solo the boss with my one scroll by turning into a frost giant.

At-will cantrips are cannot make a wizard useful without a significant power-up. At level 1, average damage is 5/hit (1d8 + 1) and damage-specialized combatants are dealing ~10/hit (2d6 + 4). Getting to increase someone's hit chance by 10% or dealing 1-2 damage on a touch attack is not level-appropriate or fun.

[johnbragg]

If the wizard does not get places to scribe new spells, he becomes Tier 2. Still broken options, just not all of them.

Your "big idea" will not fix wiz/sorc down to Tier 3-4 by itself, because unless you restrain the actual access of the spells, then you're still allowing players to take broken options. Decreasing their number of uses is encouraging the 5-minute workday, and it's toxic to the adventuring dynamic.

If I have to spend 3 days to scribe teleport before casting it, then I will do that and then use it and be more useful than the fighter. If it takes 2 days to cast polymorph, I will go through the adventure using the fighter as a meatshield and then solo the boss with my one scroll by turning into a frost giant.

Teleport and polymorph are the most common examples used. Does nerfing a handful of the biggest offenders (use PF polymorph system, Wiz 5 Teleport now works like Cleric 6 Word of Recall, Planar Ally/Binding, fix/ban Wish, Miracle, Plane Shift) solve the problem, or just move the problem to the next 12-20 most broken spells?

At-will cantrips are cannot make a wizard useful without a significant power-up. At level 1, average damage is 5/hit (1d8 + 1) and damage-specialized combatants are dealing ~10/hit (2d6 + 4). Getting to increase someone's hit chance by 10% or dealing 1-2 damage on a touch attack is not level-appropriate or fun.

It helps make the out-of-spells Wizard _more_ useful, though. A 3rd level Wizard casts three spells, and then is a 3rd-level Commoner with a crossbow at best.

[zlefin]

I disagree that lowering their spell level access wouldn't solve the problem; it might take a lot of lowering, but it's necessarily the case that a sufficiently thorough lowering of spells will make them weak enough; furthermore, the goal here is to help one player play his game, so it doesnt' need to be a perfectly optimal solution.
Giving unlimited cantrips or thereabouts and dropping their regular casting to bard or adept progression with the wiz spell list should work well enough.

Other options are available depending on what niche the original poster would like classes to play in his game.
with more details about what exactly is sought it wouldn't be hard to craft something appropriate.

[johnbragg]

Hmm. I've been pushing and pulling on the math, trying to get a single mechanic to do a few things at once.

At low levels.
1. Minimal access to low-level spells.
2. At-will access to cantrips. (Possibly some improved cantrips, but cantrips shouldn't shade into first level spells. Maybe ranged-touch-attack-cantrips do 1 per caster level?)

At mid-to-high levels:
1. Minimal access to mid-level spells
2. Plentiful access to low-level spells

At high levels
1. At-will access to some first level spells
2. Plentiful access to first- and second-level spells
3. Good access to third and fourth level spells
4. Little-to-no access to high-level spells

Maybe I don't need to use the same mechanic for 2nd level an 7th level spells?

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm. I've been pushing and pulling on the math, trying to get a single mechanic to do a few things at once.

At low levels.
1. Minimal access to low-level spells.
2. At-will access to cantrips. (Possibly some improved cantrips, but cantrips shouldn't shade into first level spells. Maybe ranged-touch-attack-cantrips do 1 per caster level?)

At mid-to-high levels:
1. Minimal access to mid-level spells
2. Plentiful access to low-level spells

At high levels
1. At-will access to some first level spells
2. Plentiful access to first- and second-level spells
3. Good access to third and fourth level spells
4. Little-to-no access to high-level spells

Maybe I don't need to use the same mechanic for 2nd level an 7th level spells?

That whole thing you described sounds a bit like the Shadowcaster mechanic from Tome of Magic. That is assuming I remember the labyrinthine thing correctly. You might want to look at it, as it can grant usage of the low-level stuff as Spell-likes or Su. It was an interesting mechanic, and might give you some ideas.

[johnbragg]

That whole thing you described sounds a bit like the Shadowcaster mechanic from Tome of Magic. That is assuming I remember the labyrinthine thing correctly. You might want to look at it, as it can grant usage of the low-level stuff as Spell-likes or Su. It was an interesting mechanic, and might give you some ideas.

I'm really shooting at something that's easy to communicate.

"Power Points, you get X PP/CL. Each new spell level doubles in cost, starting with (1 or 2) for a 1st level spell.

Spontaneous casting. You can spontaneously cast XX SL/CL.

Free casting. Starting at level X, you can learn to cast 1st level spells without spending Power Points. These spells count twice against your Spells Known. These spells can be active continuously.

Protospells. High level spells cannot be cast with daily Power Points--they can only be cast through a multi-caster ritual, a multi-day ritual or a multi-day multi-caster ritual."

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm really shooting at something that's easy to communicate.

"Power Points, you get X PP/CL. Each new spell level doubles in cost, starting with (1 or 2) for a 1st level spell.

Spontaneous casting. You can spontaneously cast XX SL/CL.

Free casting. Starting at level X, you can learn to cast 1st level spells without spending Power Points. These spells count twice against your Spells Known. These spells can be active continuously.

Protospells. High level spells cannot be cast with daily Power Points--they can only be cast through a multi-caster ritual, a multi-day ritual or a multi-day multi-caster ritual."

Not sure what you just said was terribly easy to understand, either, as it sounds like the high-level caster will have four different methods of casting (but more importantly, four different kinds of bookkeeping).

That's not to say your idea is bad. Or that the Tome of Magic thing was good (it was a good idea, but poorly explained/executed).

Be very wary of saying things like "these spells can be active continuously." Persist Spell and its ilk are immensely powerful, and you seem to have suggested that using any spells with duration can be done without an action (my wind wall is up continuously, so i don't need to cast it, as it's already there...provided the caster doesn't move.) At all levels, action economy dominates the game, and being able to do something for nothing is very strong (even if the only effects that it can be used on are low-level ones).

[johnbragg]

Not sure what you just said was terribly easy to understand, either, as it sounds like the high-level caster will have four different methods of casting (but more importantly, four different kinds of bookkeeping).

Three: spontaneous casting, free casting, and long-term rituals. But that means my explanation isn't as simple as the system is to me.

Three lists.

1. Spell books in a library, from which the caster could learn to cast the spells spontaenously, or make a Spellcraft check to scribe in a scroll (possibly involving a multi-day/multi-caster ritual).
2. Spells known for spontaenous casting.
3. First level "free casting" spells.

That's not to say your idea is bad. Or that the Tome of Magic thing was good (it was a good idea, but poorly explained/executed).

Be very wary of saying things like "these spells can be active continuously." Persist Spell and its ilk are immensely powerful, and you seem to have suggested that using any spells with duration can be done without an action (my wind wall is up continuously, so i don't need to cast it, as it's already there...provided the caster doesn't move.) At all levels, action economy dominates the game, and being able to do something for nothing is very strong (even if the only effects that it can be used on are low-level ones).

I want to give the Wizards' players something after taking away all their shiny high-level spells. And letting them break the action economy by saying that their 1st level at-will spells with durations over 1 minute/level are "always on" I think I can live with.

A 12th level wizard without 5th and 6th level spells, walking around with continuous mage armor, shield, protection from evil/good/law/chaos, endure elements, unseen servant, comprehend languages, floating disc, disguise self, ventriloquism, enlarge or reduce person, expeditious retreat, feather fall, and jump, and access to true strike at will as a standard action, is probably less dangerous than a 12th level wizard with access to 5th and 6th level spells.

[Just to Browse]

Instead of quantifying things by spell levels, write up a list of spells that you think are t3-4 at the level they are presented.

If you ban out the bad spells and nerf other ones, you can make a good spell list. Of course, you can also just write a spell list with existing spells but push the strong ones way way up (or possibly out). And you can also just restrict spell access really hard and give some at-will trinkets that compensate.

In the end, it's your choice. But in the end, you will always need to write a specific spell list if you want any real quality control.

[johnbragg]

Instead of quantifying things by spell levels, write up a list of spells that you think are t3-4 at the level they are presented.

I don't know, sometimes I have blindspots. That's why I ask stupid questions, or seemingly stupid questions. Left to my own devices, I'd have broken polymorph into eleventy billion unique spells, one for each creature, and Batman wizard would have loaded up on scrolls and put us back where we started.

I mean, I think that a good percentage of the Tier 1 problems come from maybe 20-30 spells, mostly from the polymorph, teleport, planar ally/binding, and miracle/wish families. But I haven't played with wizard-optimizing players where those spells were off the table or nerfed.

But it's also very possible that, if those spells were removed, we'd find another dozen nearly-as-broken spells.

If you ban out the bad spells and nerf other ones, you can make a good spell list. Of course, you can also just write a spell list with existing spells but push the strong ones way way up (or possibly out). And you can also just restrict spell access really hard and give some at-will trinkets that compensate.

In the end, it's your choice. But in the end, you will always need to write a specific spell list if you want any real quality control.

I"m not willing to rewrite the PHB spell by spell. And I don't want to hand players a list of "spell list fixes" more than a page long. Just not doing it.

[Zaydos]

With the nerfed spell progression and ignoring spells already on tier 3 lists problematic spells become:

• Rope Trick
• Polymorph
• (Lesser) Planar Binding (technically on DN but they lack the spells to use it with.
• Solid Fog
• Acid Fog

Other spells I've seen as problems would be Grease and Color Spray, but I think Beguiler gets both. Fabricate becomes a problem with Wall of Iron but requires questionable interpretations of the rules (you'd have to make a sword that is physically connected between each piece and then breaks off into a good blade which should require a higher Craft check by a very high margin than to make a normal sword) and Lesser Creation could be used to make Black Lotus Extract (static save DC and fiendish immunities means by the point you're getting 5th level spells this isn't breaking things) or things to sell (add a spot/spellcraft/appraise check to recognize magically created things).

Beyond that some of the spells are powerful, but few push them above Beguiler and Dread Necromancer or even Bard.

[johnbragg]

New idea. Take the Sorcerer as-is from levels 1-9. Starting at level 10, take away the high level spells and give the character more low-level spells.

From level 10 on, the Sorcerer has 6 1st, 6 2nd, 6 3rd and 6 4th level spells. He also has 20 Spell Points to spend for every level above 9th. 1st level spells cost 1, 2nd level spells cost 2, 3rd level spells cost 4, 4th level spells cost 8, etc.

And for every level above 9th, the neo-sorcerer also learns 10 new spell levels worth of spells.

Maybe he can spend an extra spell level to make a 1st level spell continuous or at-will. Continuous would definitely be worth it. I'm not sure that at-will spells would be worth it, with Spell Points being plentiful.

[Just to Browse]

I mean, I think that a good percentage of the Tier 1 problems come from maybe 20-30 spells, mostly from the polymorph, teleport, planar ally/binding, and miracle/wish families. But I haven't played with wizard-optimizing players where those spells were off the table or nerfed.

But it's also very possible that, if those spells were removed, we'd find another dozen nearly-as-broken spells.

It is not 20-30 spells. That might be the number in core, but you want to make a caster that's all about being a wizard with a big spellbook, so we're talking Spell Compendium, Stormwrack, Magic of Faerun, the whole lot. There could be hundreds of spells that skew balance, and the more options you have the greater synergy you get so the situation is incredibly complicated and spot-fixing the things that look bad is harder (and less effective) than rewriting the spells or rewriting a list.

There are a lot of spells. Some of them give you godly flexibility, some of them are incredibly strong. Some of them are t3-t4. Some of them totally suck. There is no 'sweet spot' for spells because their balance is all over the place.

I"m not willing to rewrite the PHB spell by spell. And I don't want to hand players a list of "spell list fixes" more than a page long. Just not doing it.

Then your only option is to write a specific list for your t3-t4 wizard-ish class, re-leveling and including spells such that they match your design specifications.

[johnbragg]

It is not 20-30 spells. That might be the number in core, but you want to make a caster that's all about being a wizard with a big spellbook,

It's not so much that he has a big spellbook with 30 or 50 spells/level, it's that the class archetype is that no aspect of arcane magic is beyond his ken.

so we're talking Spell Compendium, Stormwrack, Magic of Faerun, the whole lot. There could be hundreds of spells that skew balance, and the more options you have the greater synergy you get so the situation is incredibly complicated and spot-fixing the things that look bad is harder (and less effective) than rewriting the spells or rewriting a list.

So my inclination is to "say No to non-Core."

Then your only option is to write a specific list for your t3-t4 wizard-ish class, re-leveling and including spells such that they match your design specifications.

Ok. The list is "Core, minus Dimension Door and the Teleport spells, Polymorph is the Pathfinder version, Plane Shift and Planar Ally, Planar Binding and the Miracle/Wish/Polymorph Any Object. Oh, and Rope Trick is 1 min/level." That's not final, I'd want to check the thread I started on "Which 10 Core spells would you ban/nerf.