Chaotic Monks

[Amphimir Míriel]

I posted this a couple of days ago on the general discussion, but I think someone might find it useful, so I am reposting it here.

--

In my current campaign, a friend complained about the Monk's alignment restriction, so I told her: "If you show me a credible roleplaying example, I will let you be whatever alignment you want"

She showed me several Kung Fu classics, particularly "Fong Sai Yuk" (http://imdb.com/title/tt0106936/) with a young Jet li as the son of a martial artist family who has learned the family craft more out of obligation than desire, but what he wants the most is to have fun and chase girls... He uses his abilities mostly to impress the girls.

She also pointed out the complete cast of Ranma 1/2 as examples of wacky monks, but I overruled those since it's an anime...

Anyway, since having happy players and good stories being more important than "following the RAW", we struck a bargain. She is now very happy with her Half-Elf, Chaotic Good Monk who was "sent on an enlightment quest" by her teacher --in reality, the teacher was fed-up with her lack of focus and decided to get rid of her as she was distracting the other students.

The character, instead of developing a more lawful nature, began unconsciously creating a new fighting style (resembling a mix between Monkey KungFu and "Drunken Master")

Now, about the Lawful-oriented monk abilities, I have made the following changes to the monk's powers to give them a chaotic flavor...

The only "crunchy" differences are the following:

Ki Strike (lawful) becomes Ki Strike (chaotic)
and Ki Strike (adamantine) becomes Ki Strike (ghost touch)

The other differences are "fluffy" and basically mean that the following Monk abilities remain the same in effect, but they change their names as follows:

Still mind - > Evermoving mind
Purity of body - > Fast Metabolism
Diamond Body - > Body of Ever-Adapting Water
Diamond Soul - > Soul of Constant Change
Timeless Body - > Body of Simultaneous Time
Empty Body - > Body Full of the Ten Thousand Things
Perfect Self - > Agent of Change

Hope this is useful to someone else...

[Kevka Palazzo]

Heh.

I'd like to show that to my DM. 'cause I like monks, but I dislike the alignment restriction too.

Of course, the last two monks that I made died in the first sessions that I played them in....

Granted, one died because he was a bit overzealous and the other died because he was a prick, so....

[erewhon]

Chaotic Monks may SOUND like fun, but be wary of the horror of the Monk/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

You have been warned. :D

[Kevka Palazzo]

Ooooh.

And think of the rage variant that adds +4 to STR, +2 to AC and lets you make a second attack a la flurry of blows stacking with flurry of blows. I think then, that you should write in a restriction on chaotic monks saying

"If a character stops taking levels in chaotic monk, that character loses all chaotic monk class features."

The reason being that the character wasn't really ever all that into their training in the first place, and even the slightest deviation from that path makes it so that they lose everything. It might be a little harsh, but it keeps people from exploiting the barbar-monk thing.

[Valairn]

I don't think there should be a limit, cause after all, the wizard that will kill you instantly is just around the corner....

[Kevka Palazzo]

Hmmm....point. Perhaps then, chaotic monks shouldn't be able to advance to certain monk prestige classes that don't already specify alignment.

[Valairn]

Well you could describe the abilities as chaotic abilities, rather than "monk abilities"

[The_Snark]

Hmmm....point. Perhaps then, chaotic monks shouldn't be able to advance to certain monk prestige classes that don't already specify alignment.

Some of them, maybe. Others, particularly the drunken master, make perfect sense.

And tattooed monk makes sense too, so long as you have levels in drunken master too. A new perspective on the class...

[Kevka Palazzo]

Well of course the drunken master does. That whole class almost seems like a joke class to begin with. I don't know about the tattooed monk, but it makes about as much sense as a normal monk being chaotic, so it'd be okay. Classes like the Enlightened Fist, Fist of Zuoken or the one from Complete Arcane probably not though.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Chaotic Monks may SOUND like fun, but be wary of the horror of the Monk/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

You have been warned. :D

Thanks for the warning... I'll be sure to add some restriction dissallowing Mnk/Brb...

In a any case we play only core D&D, so we don't know about some of the stranger PrCs that seem to be all the rage here inthe forums...

So, any modifications you guys want to propose?

[Valairn]

Cause Brb/Frenzied Berserker is underpowered without those monk levels........ Personally its fairly easy to get mnk and barbarian levels together. Start as a barb, change to lawful (you don't lose the barb abilites), then take levels in monk, this is not difficult to role-play either, alignments are not designed to limit certain class combinations, they are designed as a guide to your role-playing.

That's my two cents.

[Peregrine]

Start as a barb, change to lawful (you don't lose the barb abilites)...

You lose rage. (SRD)

But hey, you still have all those other awesome barbarian features, like fast movement, and trap sense, and... and illiteracy...

[Pegasos989]

Another example of chaotic monk? Boxers. (Sure, there can be lawful boxers but few people would call all boxers lawful, so I will assume chaotic boxers exist.)

Monk class is perfect example of a boxer, unarmed damage, unarmed speed, speed of striking (flurry of blows), being evasive... Aside from a few class abilities, monk class represents boxers perfectly.


The alignment restriction is not a balance thingy, neither is multiclassing limitations. They both are just inherited for old school gamers' sake and I have removed both from my games with no problem.

[Valairn]

Thanks for pointing that out Peregrine, accuracy is key here. It is safe to say though, that frenzied berserker is already broken. Also I think it would probably be safe to say that during a rage, you would lose access to some monk abilities, since they require the trained perception of someone who is calm of mind. Honestly the reason barbarian and monk don't work together is completely based out of the fact that someone in a blind rage, is not going to be using his wisdom for anything.

[Pegasos989]

someone in a blind rage, is not going to be using his wisdom for anything.

Disagreed. Maybe not intelligence, but wisdom is also your senses, your willpower, your instincts...

Practically, Rage is simply a huge adrenaline rush that keeps you going far beyond your capabilities.


I think that people who take PHB flavour for everything are limiting theyr roleplaying too much. Just find a concept you like and make it mechanically working by using classes that have mechanics fitting it. :P

[Peregrine]

Well, let me be the dissenting opinion here. I like monks being Lawful-only. Monks are not boxers. Let me be clear here. Monks are not boxers. Or, not just boxers. Monks fight primarily with their bare hands (feet heads knees), monks wear generally no armour and little heavy stuff, but monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree.

Monks follow a very strict discipline -- a Lawful trait. This discipline allows them to focus a certain 'internal power' into things like ki strike, poison immunity, and agelessness. It is a key notion of the monk class flavour that it requires absolute unwavering discipline to attain these abilities.

If you want to change this notion for your game, by all means go ahead. But please do so consciously, aware of what it is you're changing. Please don't believe that there is no good reason for monks to be Lawful, that it's just for tradition's sake, that they're just boxers and wrestlers who get funky powers 'just because'.

*cough* Rant out.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree.

100% Agreed here.

Monks follow a very strict discipline -- a Lawful trait. This discipline allows them to focus a certain 'internal power' into things like ki strike, poison immunity, and agelessness. It is a key notion of the monk class flavour that it requires absolute unwavering discipline to attain these abilities.

If you want to change this notion for your game, by all means go ahead. But please do so consciously, aware of what it is you're changing. Please don't believe that there is no good reason for monks to be Lawful, that it's just for tradition's sake, that they're just boxers and wrestlers who get funky powers 'just because'.

Here is where we slightly disagree...

I still believe that, while the majority of the "wire-fu, wuxia, hong-kong action flick" characters that are the inspiration for the monk class are clearly lawful, there are enough chaotic examples to justify an exception... All in the spirit of building a great story, of course...


-----

Besides, if there's enough chaotic good Drows out there, trying to stave off the reputation of their evil kin*, I don't see why not to allow a chaotic monk or two...

* Apparently there are enough of them to justify a deity: Eilistraee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee)

[Peregrine]

Oh I'm not saying you can't have (or justify having) chaotic monks. I like monks being Lawful only, but that doesn't mean I couldn't also like a more flexible monk. But I don't like reading another opinion piece that says monks don't have to be Lawful because they can also be boxers, brawlers and wrestlers; monks are only Lawful because that's the game tradition, there's no good in-game explanation; I can justify monks not being Lawful thusly, therefore there's no good reason why anyone should make them be Lawful; etc.

All of these have shown up in this thread, so I felt the need to rant a bit. I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, that I speak for the game designers on Why Monks Are The Way They Are -- but the fact that I can show (what I consider to be) a good in-game argument for Lawful-only monks, refutes all 'there's no reason' claims.

My reason is that discipline is what gives monks their funky powers. If you want to change that, so that monk powers can just as readily be rooted in chaos, more power to you. I just want people to be aware that there is (or can be) a perfectly good reason, it's not just arbitrary. (Giving monks funky powers 'just because', now, that would be arbitrary. I like your renamed monk powers, because the names imply a reason for their existence in a chaotic character.)

[Valairn]

Seriously a non lawful monk would probably have to work on something different than the core monk. I'd say a rework of the class to allow options to fit flavor would be a great idea.

I would recommend allowing the player to choose what stat they want to benefit their unarmored bonus. A jackie chan improviser would probably use their intellect to increase their martial ability. A contemplative traditional style monk would recieve their wisdom bonus, and a drunken boxer would recieve a cha based stat. Actually build the difference into the class.

[Jibar]

Hang on...drunken master...charisma...
Drunken...charisma...
Drunk...charisma...
Other that negatively, I don't see how those two are linked.

[Valairn]

Force of personality doesn't mean people like you, it just means you are good at getting your way lol..... How many times have you appeased the drunk guy?

Regardless you are right Jibar, I was more just talking about creating ability score monks, based off of different standards. If that makes any sense.

[Ultimatum479]

I like the idea of an unarmed character who doesn't have to be lawful, but as for Monk special abilities aside from their physical ones like Flurry of Blows, they really are all about discipline, training, inner peace, that sort of lame stuff. ^_^

I'm working on a Brawler PrC, actually. Will post it later today, and I guess this is a good thread to do it, if the thread creator doesn't mind. Get ready to give tons of critique on its math-heaviness and probably some on balance too. It's my first homebrew...I'm new to D&D; my first D&D game ever started a few weeks ago (Eighth Seraph's Pseudelity campaign).

[Amphimir Míriel]

Seriously a non lawful monk would probably have to work on something different than the core monk. I'd say a rework of the class to allow options to fit flavor would be a great idea.

I would recommend allowing the player to choose what stat they want to benefit their unarmored bonus. A jackie chan improviser would probably use their intellect to increase their martial ability. A contemplative traditional style monk would recieve their wisdom bonus, and a drunken boxer would recieve a cha based stat. Actually build the difference into the class.

According to the RAW, wisdom is "a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."

I fail to see how this abilities are exclusive to lawful characters. Even more, I believe Jackie Chan's typical characters must be very strong on "common sense, perception and intuition" in order to improvise during combat the way they do. The fact that they probably have above-average charisma is a completely different issue, and it probably has an effect in the bluffs and feints associated with them, but not much else.

Wisdom should remain a vital stat for monks, whenever they are lawful or chaotic.

[ampcptlogic]

Speaking of Jackie Chan fighting styles, would whacking someone with a ladder (after tumbling off it or dodging through it) count as an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon? Would a chaotic monk get to use truly random objects (chairs, ladders, doors, pie plates) as if they were special monk weapons?

[Ultimatum479]

Those would seem to be improvised weapons. Hold up just a few minutes. Lemme post my Brawler PrC (work in progress, please critique) here in BBCode format. I'll edit this post.

EDIT:
Okay, here's my Brawler prestige class. Unarmed class which isn't lawful, woot. Was gonna spend more time checking it over, but you mentioned improvised weapons, so I had to post it. ^_^

Critique all you want, as it's somewhat math-heavy at parts, especially Cripple, and probably needs balance adjustments. I'm new to D&D. Recently joined my first campaign ever (Eighth Seraph's Pseudelity campaign). Way too early to make my own classes, I know, but the earlier one starts, the more one can learn...

On my table it looks better than this BBCode version, and I'm not sure how to do this without stretching the table, so I'll just explain here...The "Bonuses" on the table apply to Trip, Overrun, Grapple, Bull Rush, and Disarm checks, as well as to Unarmed Strike attack rolls (but not damage rolls).

Here's to improvised weaponry and the revival of called shots!

Brawler

Spoiler

Show

Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any nonlawful
Feats: Toughness feat, Improved Unarmed Strike feat, Improved Critical (for Precision)

HD: d8
Proficiencies: simple weapons, light martial weapons (except kukri), bucklers
Class skills: Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Search, Jump/Tumble (decide at 1st level, other becomes class skill as well at 5th level)
A brawler may use weapons and armor other than those listed under brawler proficiencies (taking nonproficiency penalties unless he has the proficiencies from feats or other classes), but if he does, he cannot use brawler abilities such as Cripple or the added bonuses given by IT, IO, etc. He also loses the bonuses listed on the table below. The only exception is Precision: the Improved Critical feat applies to all weapons with which a level 10 brawler is proficient, even with proficiencies obtained by means other than the Brawler class’s default proficiencies.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Bonuses

1st|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|

+0

|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+1

2nd|

+1

|

+0

|

+3

|

+0

|IIWF, MUS|+1

3rd|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

|

+1

|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+2

4th|

+2

|

+1

|

+4

|

+1

|MIWF, Blind-fight|+2

5th|

+2

|

+1

|

+4

|

+1

|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+3

6th|

+3

|

+2

|

+5

|

+2

|Cripple, Bonus feat|+3

7th|

+3

|

+2

|

+5

|

+2

|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+4

8th|

+4

|

+2

|

+6

|

+2

|(2x) UD/IUD/E/IE|+4

9th|

+4

|

+3

|

+6

|

+3

|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+5

10th|

+5

|

+3

|

+7

|

+3

|Precision|+5[/table]

Greater Overrun:
A brawler may choose the Greater Overrun special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Overrun feat. If he does, he can, while doing an overrun, deal nonlethal bludgeoning damage equal to 1/4 the amount by which he beat his opponent’s opposed Strength or Dexterity check (round up). A brawler whose overrun is blocked and then reversed can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + amount by which the defender won the check) to remain standing, though he cannot remain standing if there is another character standing in the square to which he is repelled. He can also make two overrun attempts per round with the same standard action, unless he attempts to overrun someone larger than himself, in which case that is the only attempt he may make that round. If he overruns someone smaller than himself, it does not count against his overrun attempts per round, though it still uses (part of) a standard action. If he is knocked back after failing an overrun but is not knocked prone (either by winning the next check or by making his Reflex save) and he may still make another overrun attempt and has enough movement left that round, he can continue his forward momentum to attempt the overrun again, though he cannot switch directions to continue his movement elsewhere that round even if he remained standing.

Greater Trip:
A brawler may choose the Greater Trip special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Trip feat. If he does, he can choose to trip in place of his standard melee attack when making an attack of opportunity (though, when doing so, he does not get the immediate melee attack of Improved Trip). He can trip opponents attempting to bull rush, charge, or overrun him, taking a penalty of (1/2(BLS-30) - 2(Dex mod)), to a minimum of 0, to account for the timing required for this action if his opponent is moving faster than 30 ft per round. He then makes a Trip check as normal against his opponent (with this potential penalty), and the target makes an opposed Trip check as normal. If the brawler wins, the opponent’s momentum becomes his downfall, and he lands 5 feet behind the brawler, prone, taking 1d2 + (1 for every 5 feet above 30 at which the opponent is moving) bludgeoning damage. (Due to the Improved Trip feat, the brawler then gets an immediate melee attack.) If the brawler loses, the bull rush, charge, or overrun happens as normal except that the brawler automatically fails his roll against the bull rush or overrun, or takes a -1 to his AC against the charge.

Greater Grapple:
A brawler may choose the Greater Grapple special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Grapple feat. If he does, the brawler can hold targets up to two size categories larger than themselves rather than the usual one, though he cannot pin such opponents. He gains a +2 to disarm checks against a grappled opponent and a +4 to disarm checks against pinned opponents, as well as a +2 to trip checks against grappled opponents and a +4 to trip checks against pinned opponents. He can use a light weapon he is wielding to deal damage during a grapple with a grapple check instead of a normal attack roll. Rather than losing his Dexterity bonus to AC against non-grappled opponents, a brawler who has selected Greater Grapple takes a -2 to his Dex modifier to AC against non-grappled opponents for every opponent he grapples, but if that would reduce his Dex modifier below 0, he loses his Dex bonus to AC.

Greater Bull Rush:
A brawler may choose the Greater Bull Rush special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Bull Rush feat. If he does, he may blow away the opponent if he beats their opposing roll by 5 or more, causing the opponent to roll 1d3x5 feet and take 1d3 nonlethal damage per 5 feet rolled. The victim provokes attacks of opportunity as normal for moving, and is treated as attempting an unavoidable overrun against any opponents he hits while moving this distance. The opponent may avoid landing prone if he makes a DC 20 Reflex save (with a +2 for having 5 or more ranks in Jump, and another +2 for 5 or more ranks in Tumble), although he must fall prone if he fails an overrun check in a collision. The brawler gets a +4 bonus instead of a +2 when charging.

Greater Disarm:
A brawler may choose the Greater Disarm special abillity at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Disarm feat. If he does, he may disarm an opponent by using a one-handed or light weapon and end up with the weapon in his free hand rather than on the floor. He reduces his opponent’s +10 bonus against disarms from using a spiked gauntlet to a +5 bonus, and ignores his own -4 penalty for wielding a light weapon if wielding one. If both the brawler’s hands are full, the weapon ends up in his own square rather than in the defender’s square. When attempting a disarm against an opponent wielding two weapons, a brawler may attempt to disarm his opponent of both weapons with a single disarm attempt at a -4 penalty, or he may attempt first one disarm and then the second as a single standard action, each disarm attempt being at a -2.

Improved Improvised Weapon Fighting:
A brawler can treat improvised weapons almost exactly like their closest simple/martial/exotic counterpart. Other classes do this only for damage and size category, while level 2 brawlers do this for proficiency as well (though not for threat range and critical multiplier, which remain 20/x2). If a brawler is proficient with the weapon which their improvised weaponry most closely resembles, he is considered proficient with the improvised weapon. Brawlers try not to break their newfound weapons too quickly in combat (they may add 2 to the hardness of an improvised weapon, to a maximum of the hardness of the weapon it resembles). They also get +3 on Spot or Search checks made to notice or find a potential weapon nearby.

Greater Unarmed Strike:
Any abilities which apply to a brawler’s unarmed strikes also work with fist weapons such as gauntlets or brass knuckles (such as crippling attacks to the eyes or throat; see Cripple below), and he is automatically considered proficient with all such weapons. A brawler’s unarmed strikes have a threat range of 19-20 and deal x2 damage on a roll of 19 or x3 damage on a roll of 20. A brawler can use Two-Weapon Defense with unarmed strikes if he has the feat.

Greater Improvised Weapon Fighting:
In addition to the advantages conferred upon their improvised weaponry skills by Improved Improvised Weapon Fighting, brawlers can treat their improvised weapons as the weapon which they most closely resemble for the purposes of critical hits as well, unless 20/x2 is preferable, and for range increments in the case of ranged improvised weapons (at the DM’s discretion if the improvised weapon is significantly heavier than the weapon it mimics).

Blind-fight:
Brawlers gain the Blind-fight feat as a bonus feat at 4th level, with the added advantage of ignoring the invisible attacker’s +2 bonus for ranged attacks as well.

Cripple: (Round down when halving.) (DC 10 + (Brawler lvl)/2 + (Str mod) for all Fort saves)
Brawlers can inflict extra damage and/or certain status effects if they beat their opponent’s AC by a significant amount with an unarmed strike or light weapon. They can call a cripple effect before or immediately after their attack roll, though if they call it afterwards, they take a -2 penalty to the roll. If the brawler beats the opponent’s AC by 4 or more and deals at least 5 damage with his attack (after damage reduction), he can choose to land his attack on the opponent’s arm. Then, for a number of rounds equal to half the damage dealt, the opponent takes a penalty to attack rolls made and damage inflicted with that arm equal to the amount by which the AC was beaten. The same rules apply for attacks to the leg except that the penalty is taken to the Dexterity modifier for AC (which cannot go below 0), although the damage and attack roll penalty applies as well when an attack is made with the legs, such as a monk’s attacks if his arms are restrained. A successful Fort save reduces both the penalty and its duration to half. If the brawler beats the AC by 7 or more and deals at least 4 damage with his attack, he can aim for the torso, knocking the wind out of his opponent. The victim becomes fatigued for two rounds (or exhausted for three if already fatigued) and dazed for one round. A successful Fort save negates the daze. If the brawler beats the AC by 10 or more and deals at least 3 damage with his attack, he may aim for the head, dazing his opponent for two rounds. A successful Fort save causes the opponent to be dazed for one round instead. If the brawler beats the AC by 13 or more and deals at least 1 damage with an unarmed strike, he may attack his opponent’s eyes, blinding the target for two rounds. A successful Fort save shortens the blinding to a one round duration. If the brawler beats the AC by 16 or more and deals at least 1 damage with an unarmed strike, he may go for the throat, cutting off his opponent’s air for 6 rounds. During this time, the opponent’s Constitution is, for the purposes of Constitution checks made to avoid suffocation, reduced by the amount by which the brawler beat his opponent’s AC. A successful Fort save reduces the Constitution penalty to 1/2 of the amount by which the brawler beat the AC. When crippling, critical hits count as their roll plus 5, though they cannot do critical damage; the brawler must decide whether he wants to deal critical damage or use the +5 to cause a crippling effect, rather than doing both.

Bonus feat:
At level 6, a Brawler may choose Improved Trip, Improved Overrun, Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, or Improved Disarm as a bonus feat.

(Improved) Uncanny Dodge/(Improved) Evasion
Of the four listed abilities a brawler can take at level 8, he may choose two. Thus, if a brawler does not have Uncanny Dodge, he can take Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, for example. Or, if a brawler has Uncanny Dodge, he can take Improved Uncanny Dodge and Evasion...etc...

Precision:
A level 10 brawler does NOT automatically gain Precision until he takes the Improved Critical feat on a weapon with which he is proficient, though a level 10 brawler can take the Improved Critical feat without a BAB of +8. A brawler with Precision applies Improved Critical to all weapons with which he is proficient. In addition, whenever he rolls a critical, either he can add 10 to his roll and use the roll for Cripple effects, or he can use the normal roll for Cripple effects and deal critical damage. Level 10 brawlers deal x3 damage with unarmed strikes on a critical, and their threat range becomes 17-20 due to Improved Critical’s effect on all weapons with which the brawler is proficient. All Cripple effects have their damage requirements lowered by 1.

Cripple isn't overpowered because of the hefty AC requirements, and even the damage ones, which are normally light but are more pronounced when you remember that brawlers don't get extra Unarmed Strike damage bonuses. It is, however, pretty uber when you get Precision at level 10. I intended for it to be such, as it the requirements are generally too high until level 10. I'm hoping the d8 HD, low unarmed strike damage, saves, pre-reqs, and weaponry limitations make up for it, but if there are still balance issues as Eighth Seraph said there were, tell me.

[Pegasos989]

Well, let me be the dissenting opinion here. I like monks being Lawful-only. Monks are not boxers. Let me be clear here. Monks are not boxers. Or, not just boxers. Monks fight primarily with their bare hands (feet heads knees), monks wear generally no armour and little heavy stuff, but monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree.

Monks follow a very strict discipline -- a Lawful trait. This discipline allows them to focus a certain 'internal power' into things like ki strike, poison immunity, and agelessness. It is a key notion of the monk class flavour that it requires absolute unwavering discipline to attain these abilities.

If you want to change this notion for your game, by all means go ahead. But please do so consciously, aware of what it is you're changing. Please don't believe that there is no good reason for monks to be Lawful, that it's just for tradition's sake, that they're just boxers and wrestlers who get funky powers 'just because'.

*cough* Rant out.

Oh I'm not saying you can't have (or justify having) chaotic monks. I like monks being Lawful only, but that doesn't mean I couldn't also like a more flexible monk. But I don't like reading another opinion piece that says monks don't have to be Lawful because they can also be boxers, brawlers and wrestlers; monks are only Lawful because that's the game tradition, there's no good in-game explanation; I can justify monks not being Lawful thusly, therefore there's no good reason why anyone should make them be Lawful; etc.

All of these have shown up in this thread, so I felt the need to rant a bit. I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, that I speak for the game designers on Why Monks Are The Way They Are -- but the fact that I can show (what I consider to be) a good in-game argument for Lawful-only monks, refutes all 'there's no reason' claims.

My reason is that discipline is what gives monks their funky powers. If you want to change that, so that monk powers can just as readily be rooted in chaos, more power to you. I just want people to be aware that there is (or can be) a perfectly good reason, it's not just arbitrary. (Giving monks funky powers 'just because', now, that would be arbitrary. I like your renamed monk powers, because the names imply a reason for their existence in a chaotic character.)

No, there is No Reason. Seriously. Chaotic characters can have just as much dicipline as lawful ones. Chaoticness can mean not believing in the traditions over common sense, believing in personal freedom and similar stuff. Nothing in it is has to mean you would have any less dicipline.

Nobody should have to be mechanically punished for their roleplaying concept. So if I have unarmed fighter and a class that specializes in unarmed fighting (monk), I do not need to go with just taking unarmed strike for 1d6 damage, getting my unarmored ac from crappy feats like dodge... If I want to have a boxer and there is a class which can represent it very well - aside from a few abilities (like ki strike), monk class represents boxer perfectly.

Things aren't going to change by you repeating yourself over and over again.
"Monks are not boxers. Let me be clear here. Monks are not boxers. Or, not just boxers. Monks fight primarily with their bare hands (feet heads knees), monks wear generally no armour and little heavy stuff, but monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree."

There was no reason at all. You could have just said "Monk class doesn't represent boxers because..." rather than saying "it is not" a dozen times and then starting to practically quote phb flavor and talking about chaotic people being less dicipled or stuff...

EDIT: Let's look at monk abilities:
Emphasizing boxer concept:
Hit die d8 - fits boxer concept
3/4 bab - fits boxer concept
Good fortitude save - fits boxer concept
Good reflex save - fits boxer concept
Improved unarmed damage - fits boxer concept
Improved unarmed speed - fits boxer concept
Flurry of blows - fits boxer concept
Stunning fist as a bonus feat - fits boxer concept
Combat reflexes as a bonus feat - fits boxer concept
KI Strike (adamantine) - fits boxer concept
Wholeness of body - fits boxer concept
Quivering palm - fits atleast as well as to the original flavour
Perfect self - Dr/magic? Fits boxer concept

The ones that do not emphasize boxer concept but fit really well:
Improved unarmored speed
Evasion/Improved evasion
Slow fall
Diamond body
Purity of the body

The ones that have nothing to do with being a boxer
Good will save
Still mind
Ki strike (lawful)
Abundant step
Diamond soul
Timeless body
Tongue of the sun and moon
Empty body

So:
14 aspects emphasizing boxer concept
5 aspects that fit it very well
8 aspects that have very little to do with being a boxer

However, if we assume that it takes a lot of willpower (will save) to stay in the ring when opponent beats you up constantly and still concentrate, we change good will save and still mind to those fitting very well, so we get
14 aspects emphasize the concept
7 aspects fit very well
6 that have very little to do with being a boxer

And as we reflavour, we could take away stuff that won't affect playing anyways, so remove anti-aging from the list
14 aspects emphasize the concept
7 aspects fit very well
5 that have very little to do with being a boxer

So really, maybe monk is not a boxer but monk class can very well be.

[Ultimatum479]

And yet, in his slight redundancy, Peregrine said far more than you said in your attempted variety. Plus, what he said was actually right. So, you lose.

Some monk traits like adding Wisdom to AC and using Flurry of Blows are fine when Chaotic. Abilities like Still Mind and Purity of Body and Empty Body and Perfect Self are not. It'd be like saying Paladins can be evil, and then giving them Smite Evil instead of switching it to something more fitting like Smite Good.

EDIT in reply to the above edit:
It's not about numbers, Pegasos. It's about the general concept. A boxer is a completely different concept from a monk. Monks gain their abilities through meditative self-discipline -- which, by the way, is a very lawful trait, not chaotic. I agree that Chaotic Monks would be cool, but they have to have different abilities.

[Valairn]

According to the RAW, wisdom is "a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."

I fail to see how this abilities are exclusive to lawful characters. Even more, I believe Jackie Chan's typical characters must be very strong on "common sense, perception and intuition" in order to improvise during combat the way they do. The fact that they probably have above-average charisma is a completely different issue, and it probably has an effect in the bluffs and feints associated with them, but not much else.

Wisdom should remain a vital stat for monks, whenever they are lawful or chaotic.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I am gonna say, that maybe people want options in there game? Some fighters literally win by their force of personality, some win by their supreme intellect, some by their perception, its not a difficult concept, yes I agree wisdom makes sense to add to AC, but so does intellect, or even charisma, or even con or strength. You could make an argument for anything in DnD and that isn't wrong, its a good thing.

If someone wants to make an unarmed fighter that wins on force of personality, or keeness of intellect, why should we hinder them?

[Ultimatum479]

We shouldn't, Valairn, but then it's a different class altogether.

[Valairn]

And that's a problem.... fixing the problem of the monk requires a change in flavor.