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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    The background first is that in one of the campaigns I'm in, a player made his elf be around 25. This has sparked many debates, and I turned to what the PH and the BoEF says. And yes, feel free to laugh that I actually read the BoEF, but then Races of The Wild went and messed everything up.

    The Player's Handbook says elves aren't fully matured till 110ish.(this is table 6-4, but I don't have the exact page) Now today I was looking around in Races of The Wild, and in specific, the Elf chapter, which said that elves mature roughly at age 25,(page 13) and even states the Player's Handbook meant by starting age as the age they are mentally mature enough to leave home. And roughly page 25 of the BoEF(it's the page with the female elf with crazy eyes and bare breasts.) says that they also mature roughly at 110-120, but this specifically says physically.

    I wanna believe Races of the Wild, but it's got one book definitely against it, and possibly a core book. Now my question is, what book should I quote as truth?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    BoEF is third party, and RotW was printed long after the PHB (so it should technically take priority).

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    PHB is the primary source for races. See here:

    Errata Rule: Primary Sources
    When you find a disagreement between two D&DŽ rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

    Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. Note: The most recent updates are shaded like this.
    With that said, it's your game... go with what you like!

    JaronK

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    I believe some of the novels have supported the notion that elves in general (and drow in particular) mature fairly quickly - in line with RoTW.
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Ignore BoEF, it is not a WotC book. Elves physically (or at least physiologically) mature at 25.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    PHB is the primary source for races. See here:
    If you take this literally however, there are no other base classes or PC races outside of the PHB. ALL the rules for those two things are in the PHB, after all.

    @ OP: I would allow the RotW reading. Such an elf would be physically mature but likely naive/brash/impulsive, but that too is up to the player.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If you take this literally however, there are no other base classes or PC races outside of the PHB. ALL the rules for those two things are in the PHB, after all.
    I believe the general stance is "Core trumps splat if there is a contradiction, but splat can still trump core on specific vs. general". Nothing official, just the rule of thumb I recall seeing the most.

    I too wouldn't go with BoEF. Not just because its third party, but because 100 years to mature is really strange for a humanoid race that is meant to have a social structure similar to those employed at times by humans in real life.
    Last edited by Boci; 2013-11-05 at 03:09 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If you take this literally however, there are no other base classes or PC races outside of the PHB. ALL the rules for those two things are in the PHB, after all.
    Specific overrides general. So if a specific new race is added, that's fine, but where it contradicts (such as if Complete Warrior said Fighters don't get Feats) the PHB trumps.

    Note, however, that it's true that there's only 11 base classes, namely the ones in the PHB. Standard classes are the ones that were added later (and include the Base Classes). See PHB2, Dungeonscape, and the DMG for references on this. Random trivia, that. Fighters are a Base Class and Standard Class, while Samurai are just a Standard Class.

    JaronK

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    I totally agree, Specific Trumps General occupies a higher echelon of authority than Primary Source.

    I admit I'm surprised to hear you concur on this point though, I recall us arguing this in the past. But all's well that ends well.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Sir Chuckles's Avatar

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    There's two ways you can approach this:

    Accept RotW, and you're good.
    Accept the player's handbook and realize that you're Elf is not much more than a new born. You'd be about, what?, 180? 180 sounds right (Max starting age for a Wizard would be 170, and considering adult age in the PHB for Humans is 15 it sounds about right).

    It's a DM call, really.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I totally agree, Specific Trumps General occupies a higher echelon of authority than Primary Source.

    I admit I'm surprised to hear you concur on this point though, I recall us arguing this in the past. But all's well that ends well.
    Me and JaronK both posted that rule of thumb, are you referring to me? I can't recall that argument in any case, but I guess its possibly there was a subject on which I hold a contrary opinion. Oh well.

    Actually I was trying to remember the times I have disagreed with you, and for some reason I have a hard time distinguishing between you and Urpriest. I don't know why.

    Edit: mashed "boci psyren specific trumps general giantitp.com" into google, first thread that came up was us agreeing on the issue: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214988
    Last edited by Boci; 2013-11-05 at 03:20 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Me and JaronK both posted that rule of thumb, are you referring to me? I can't recall that argument in any case, but I guess its possibly there was a subject on which I hold a contrary opinion. Oh well.

    Actually I was trying to remember the times I have disagreed with you, and for some reason I have a hard time distinguishing between you and Urpriest. I don't know why.
    I was referring to JaronK there - we've had a couple of discussions on that point, though the only one that immediately comes to mind is our disagreement regarding Rules Compendium vs. the PHB reprint.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    I've always been very clear on those pair of rules, because it comes up so much. But yes, Specific Trumps General is the first rule of conflicts, and Primary Source is the second rule of conflicts. The third rule is that individual books can claim their own trumping, such as SpC or MiC doing so for spells and items, respectively.

    Finally, 3.5 always trumps 3.0, because it's considered an update.

    I've certainly never claimed otherwise. With the Rules Compendium, the problem is that the RC itself says that it trumps earlier books, but then the Premium Core Books (which are themselves Primary Sources) were printed after the RC and claimed to have all up to date Errata, which makes them trump the RC right back by the RC's own rules. Thus, RC only applies to anything when it's more specific or not covered by the Premium Core Books... otherwise it's a completely worthless book, basically.

    Also, since the Premium Core Books absolutely did NOT include all the up to date errata, they're horrible money grabs that should never have been printed.

    JaronK
    Last edited by JaronK; 2013-11-05 at 03:26 PM.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I was referring to JaronK there - we've had a couple of discussions on that point, though the only one that immediately comes to mind is our disagreement regarding Rules Compendium vs. the PHB reprint.
    Dam. So the 2 minute research I did on google was for nothing?
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Also, since the Premium Core Books absolutely did NOT include all the up to date errata, they're horrible money grabs that should never have been printed.

    JaronK
    On this we can certainly agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Dam. So the 2 minute research I did on google was for nothing?
    Sorry I wasn't clear
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    In addition to BoEF being a third party book, it was made for 3E, not for 3.5, so it's opinion should have even less weight.

    Also, am I the only one amused that the OP described the "art" on the page that described elf maturation?
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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Which book should I refer to in my situation?

    Go with whatever fits your campaign best. Personally, I like the idea of elves growing up rather quickly rather than spending 20 years in diapers.
    The Mystaran elves back in the day were stated to grow up at about the same rate as humans until age 20-25, then their teenage (adventuring) years kicked in and went from then up to about 100, when they settle down and become productive members of the community. That was specifically Alfheim elves, though, and none of the half-dozen or so other elven cultures mentioned anything about growing up, so I assume they follow a similar pattern.

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