maximize cleave with out book of nine sword

[HALFORCSTEVE]

Ok so I have just been informed by my DM that he isn't allowing book of the nine swords. With that the whole crusader or warblade dips are out starting as a second lvl fighter with power attack, cleave, and now combat reflex what would you suggest for a build to maximize cleave and later great cleave?

[jhardin87]

Well you kinda messed up to begin with. You can't get combat reflexes without its prereq, combat expertise and honestly those are only really useful if you're going lockdown.

[nedz]

Ok so I have just been informed by my DM that he isn't allowing book of the nine swords. With that the whole crusader or warblade dips are out starting as a second lvl fighter with power attack, cleave, and now combat reflex what would you suggest for a build to maximize cleave and later great cleave?

What is you're current build ?
What are you trying to achieve ?

Well you kinda messed up to begin with. You can't get combat reflexes without its prereq, combat expertise and honestly those are only really useful if you're going lockdown.

Combat Reflexes has no pre-reqs

[Darrin]

Well you kinda messed up to begin with. You can't get combat reflexes without its prereq, combat expertise and honestly those are only really useful if you're going lockdown.

Huh? Combat Reflexes has no prereq (although it's kinda pointless if your Dex is 11 or less).

Ok so I have just been informed by my DM that he isn't allowing book of the nine swords. With that the whole crusader or warblade dips are out starting as a second lvl fighter with power attack, cleave, and now combat reflex what would you suggest for a build to maximize cleave and later great cleave?

Cleave is a decent melee feat, because extra attacks you don't have to spend actions on are always a nice perk.

Great Cleave... not so much. The odds you'll ever be surrounded by enough low-level enemies to actually use it are extremely low. Even if you do find yourself in a situation where you're surrounded by enemies you can strike down with a single attack, then odds are good that they're not a serious threat to you to begin with, and you can mop them up without Great Cleave. You're much better off taking a feat you can use every round, instead of once in a blue moon.

Before we can give you more specific advice, though, we need to know what sourcebooks you have available: Core, Completes, Races, Faerun/Eberron, Online articles, Dragon Magazine, etc. We know ToB is not available, but what else?

Assuming Core/Completes, the standard Ubercharger stuff should work just fine for you: Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper. Dip Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 for pounce, Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 for Improved Trip. Throw in some Travel Devotion for 10 rounds of backup 20' + charge + jump + pounce.

[Red Fel]

Am I correct in thinking this is a continuation of your other thread?

You might want to refer to that thread in your opening post, so that people can get some idea where you're coming from.

Apart from the ban on ToB, what did you think of the other suggestions in that thread? Have you implemented any? How, if at all, has the situation changed?

[Joe the Rat]

Great Cleave is one of those niche feats, as it requires a field of mooks. Unless mook grinding is a likely scenario, it's probably a feat best used elsewhere (such as charging builds, which lets you get to the mooks - and cleave larger ones - better.

If you are serious about going the blender route, you're going to need reach. Enlarge person, pole arms, weird race/body options... whatever works. It improves your odds of having a third for the GC to activate.

[Deox]

Isn't there a way to get an additional 5' step after making a successful melee attack? Or is it just the Wolf Pack Tactics stance?

If there's something akin to WPT, then something with Supreme Cleave could essentially grant you an endless cleave, so long as there were enemies within range.

[HALFORCSTEVE]

Am I correct in thinking this is a continuation of your other thread?

You might want to refer to that thread in your opening post, so that people can get some idea where you're coming from.

Apart from the ban on ToB, what did you think of the other suggestions in that thread? Have you implemented any? How, if at all, has the situation changed?

Yes and thank you for all the suggestions and yes I did take a lot of them into considerations until my DM killed my thicket of blades rout so just trying to get a new build idea still going the cleave rout or ill take suggestions with a 26 str 15 dex try to deal massive damage using a two handed great sword

[lytokk]

Also, by your previous thread you had large size, so you're going to have that 10 ft reach, so combat reflexes definitely. See if you can't put your level 4 attribute point into dex just to get another AoO. Cleave works great and if you're power attacking, taking out the max BAB, at level 2 would be 2, but with your str being at +8, you shouldn't be too stressed at hitting things. But removing that +2 from the BAB gives you a +4 to damage.

I don't know the typical baddies you're facing, maybe that could help in order get us an idea of what you need to do.

[Lans]

Huh? Combat Reflexes has no prereq (although it's kinda pointless if your Dex is 11 or less).

Actually its not, it still allows you take aoo while flat footed

[HALFORCSTEVE]

so far we have taken on cobalts, zombies, skeletons, and a necromancer not sure if this is what we will primarily be taking on.

[Red Fel]

At low levels, Steve, that works fine. But as I mentioned in the prior thread, Cleave falls off in utility at higher levels, and here's why: Enemies get less squishy.

Cleave (and its Great cousin) offers you a benefit that triggers only when you drop an enemy. At low levels, with a high Strength bonus and against swarms of low-HD enemies, that's an easy win. One hit will crush most basic kobolds, done and done, move onto the next.

But at higher levels, two things may happen.

1: You'll face fewer enemies. Expect to have some tough boss fights, just a big boss and maybe a couple of minions. If you and your party are taking on a Dragon, for example, Cleave is useless - that Dragon is alone. Kill it, and you're done, end of story.

2: The enemies will be stronger. Even if you face a swarm of enemies, they are likely to be tough. Tonka Tough. You may or may not be able to drop them with your hits. And if your caster or another party member gets them first, that Cleave is wasted.

I'm not saying don't take Cleave (or Great Cleave). I am saying what I said in the last thread: think about the long run. If you really want to take these two feats, you are going to have to optimize your melee damage substantially. You're going to have to make sure you can hit things every round, and that you can drop the things you hit. Otherwise, these feats will be wasted. And without ToB, your options have gotten a lot narrower.

[Gwendol]

Look at the advice I gave you earlier, they are still valid. If you want to get something close to thicket of blades you will need 4 levels of knight to get bulwark of defence. Not sure your current alignment works with the knight though.

[HALFORCSTEVE]

thanks for all the help I like this playground you guys are very helpful and giving me good ideas to run with.

[Prime32]

At low levels, Steve, that works fine. But as I mentioned in the prior thread, Cleave falls off in utility at higher levels, and here's why: Enemies get less squishy.

Cleave (and its Great cousin) offers you a benefit that triggers only when you drop an enemy. At low levels, with a high Strength bonus and against swarms of low-HD enemies, that's an easy win. One hit will crush most basic kobolds, done and done, move onto the next.

There are abilities, though, that let you attack multiple enemies at once without needing to drop one - War Mind gets it at lv5, while War Hulk gets it at lv2/4/10. The Circle Kick feat from Sword & Fist works similarly, but is unarmed-only.

Then there's Tactical Soldier (MiniHB) which can Cleave when one of its allies drops an enemy (though it counts as an AoO), and Knight Protector (CWar) which can take a 5ft step between Cleave attempts.

[jhardin87]

Ya my bad. I have no idea why I thought combat reflexes required combat expertise. In my defense though I did have my 18 month old son climbing me like a jungle gym when I was typing that so it's fair to say I was a little distracted

[Xerlith]

Okay. First of all - what are your stats? All of them.
Can you roll up a completely new character?
Can you take the 2nd level in something else?
Why is your DM banning ToB?

[Zombulian]

so far we have taken on cobalts, zombies, skeletons, and a necromancer not sure if this is what we will primarily be taking on.

Ah yes. The dreaded cobalt.

In all seriousness though, consider picking up Stand Still or Combat Expertise + Improved Trip. With a reach weapon you could be a serious battlefield controller.

[TuggyNE]

Ah yes. The dreaded cobalt.

The best thing about cobalt is that it was named for kobolds.

Not even kidding here.

[Waddacku]

The Circle Kick feat from Sword & Fist works similarly, but is unarmed-only.

While technically true, it's also spectacularly worthless, because you have to give up your full attack for one attack that lets you attack again if it hits. Bizarre errata.

[HALFORCSTEVE]

So I do like the idea of going the lion totem barbarian rout but everything I find says at 1st lvl you gain run not pounce. what if any prerequisites does this class have I haven't found any, and If I get it at 3rd lvl doesn't that make pounce ultimately useless until I get multiple attacks?

[RMS Oceanic]

So I do like the idea of going the lion totem barbarian rout but everything I find says at 1st lvl you gain run not pounce. what if any prerequisites does this class have I haven't found any, and If I get it at 3rd lvl doesn't that make pounce ultimately useless until I get multiple attacks?

You're looking at the SRD Lion Totem Variant. The Pouncing Lion Totem everyone recommends is in the book Complete Champion.

[nedz]

Yes it's confusing.
You want the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from CC p46; not the Lion Totem ACF.

[Red Fel]

Yes it's confusing.
You want the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from CC p46; not the Lion Totem ACF.

What he said.

The Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion replaces your Fast Movement (at level 1) with Pounce. The Lion Totem ACF is from Unearthed Arcana or the SRD, and it's a completely different ACF, all together.
Everyone: "It's a completely different ACF."
Pounce is one of the most desirable traits for a first-assault melee, because you can immediately dive into combat with a Charge + Full Attack. That may not be vital at low-levels when you have only one iterative attack, but it becomes priceless once your iteratives increase.

[Deox]

Knight Protector (CWar) which can take a 5ft step between Cleave attempts.

Interesting thought, but with this are you still limited to one 5ft adjustment per turn or is this in addition? If it's in addition, you could charge one foe using a standard ubercharger, and with enough reach, endlessly cleave the entire field.

[ArcturusV]

Odd thing to consider as you go Dipmania (As a good melee build often does), perhaps Sohei? Gets another type of Rage which gets you a Flurry of Blows, but having full BAB and high strength/Dex means you might actually be able to use it effectively. Being able to charge and pop off 3 attacks at level 6 wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Plus you can get Mettle off it which isn't exactly a stick in the eye either. But since you're going Barb it's probably off the table for Alignment concerns.

Odd thing to consider with Cleaveage to the Max? Had a player who did this once in a campaign and it was neat enough that I let it ride. Threw in Quick Draw and the Golf Bag. So he'd use his battle axe to drop someone in melee, and clear out any other adjacent squares, then drop his axe as a free action, take up his glaive and go for anyone in 10 ', and oddly he finished with a whip for 15' range (I say oddly because few people take it, but considering the campaign I was running at the time, and combat maneuvers it wasn't bad at all).

I mean,yeah, bit more intensive than just using Reach plus Enlarge plus... but also has the bonus of seeming somewhat more "Clever" and has the In Character edge of suckering in enemies close to you. I mean if you're the guy whirling around a spiked chain all combat long and hitting everything within 20'... enemies will see it and avoid it. They see a guy with a longsword who is already fighting someone else, they probably won't think too much about being 10 feet away, or 15 feet away instead.

[Abaddona]

If taking dip in barbarian for pounce you may also substitute normal rage for Whirling Frenzy http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...reVariants.htm
to get second attack at you highest iterative but with -2 penalty for every other attack that round (which evens out with strength increase).

[Zombulian]

Interesting thought, but with this are you still limited to one 5ft adjustment per turn or is this in addition? If it's in addition, you could charge one foe using a standard ubercharger, and with enough reach, endlessly cleave the entire field.

Get a Sparring Dummy of the Master and some Boots of Sidestepping.