Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

[fishyfishyfishy]

I'm kind of confused about some of the entries...

Spoiler

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hellreaver requires good alignment, but doesn't corruption change your alignment to neutral or evil?

[dysprosium]

And here I thought we'd have a small crop of entries this round. Silly me.

16 entries is a small crop for IC lately!

My second entry was going to be a CW Samurai 6/Corrupt Avenger 10/Avenging Executioner 4 with a focus on demoralizing his sworn foes into a cower and then coup de grace them with a tainted iaijutsu strike.

Kinda glad I didn't get him entered since there are a lot of similar ideas.

[Deadline]

Wow, that's ... that's a lot of spellthieves.

[Amphetryon]

Wow, that's ... that's a lot of spellthieves.

It will be interesting to see how that distribution of Classes gets rated by the judges for Originality.

[Tim Proctor]

hellreaver requires good alignment, but doesn't corruption change your alignment to neutral or evil?

The taint has no changes to alignment. In fact Corrupt Avenger requires non-evil alignment and moderate corruption. There are issues regarding whether or not Depravity would change your alignment because you're murderous, hubristic, etc. however if St. Cuthbert can turn his cleric into a Ettin and watch it murder people without changing their alignment then I don't think depravity would have much of an effect, but now we're into an alignment debate but HoH p. 67.

There is the section HoH page 67 about codes of conduct which specifically states a Paladin with moderate loses all Paladin spells and abilities, and address Clerics of good at severe.

[Vaz]

There is a Small comment regarding taint and alignment change. Essentially, it is a DM's call, but it is suggested Moderate = neutral, Severe = evil.

Then again, so is Deathwatch.

[Tim Proctor]

*+*

P.S. I was under the impression that master spellthief is a hidden classfeature, just like natural spell for druids...

Complete Scoundrel, p. 79

I don't read anything to hint such.

[Tim Proctor]

It will be interesting to see how that distribution of Classes gets rated by the judges for Originality.

I wanted to add onto this since there is a lot of spellthief/hellreaver comments, and even though I didn't submit a spellthief or a hellreaver I figured that people should get a actual analysis of classes were used multiple times.

{table=head]Class | # | %
Barbarian | 3 | 18.75
Crusader | 2 | 12.5
Hellreaver | 3 | 18.75
Paladin | 2 | 12.5
Ranger | 3 | 18.75
Spellthief | 4 | 25
Swordsage | 2 | 12.5
Warblade | 2 | 12.5 [/table]

[fishyfishyfishy]

There is a Small comment regarding taint and alignment change. Essentially, it is a DM's call, but it is suggested Moderate = neutral, Severe = evil.

Then again, so is Deathwatch.

That must be where I got that in my head from then.

[Socratov]

*+*

Complete Scoundrel, p. 79

I don't read anything to hint such.

it wasn't that I couldn't find it (I used it earlier in a build I played), it's just that it's such a basic feat to take that it might as well be a classfeature, much like a druid who, upon reaching druid level 6, has the option to take the feat natural spell, and would be a fool not to do so. Even when singleclassed spellthief ithelps you by making sure you can cast stolen spells in light armor without acrane spellcasting failure. For instance without the feat, if you would steal a spell from a wizard you'd cast the spell like a wizard and the arcane spellcasting failure chance woudl apply because of wearing light armour. With the feat you can cast it without the chance of failure due to light armour.

progress in judging: Wow, some builds really have me update my 3.5 skills. Sometimes I think something is invalid, but after some careful research it seems to be okay after all. Great learning opportunity. Also, I love DnD Tools. Like, I want to have it's babies

[dysprosium]

Also, I love DnD Tools. Like, I want to have it's babies

Personally I wouldn't go that far but it is a great site.

[Keynub]

There's goodness here, I'm definitely going to judge.

Spoiler: Criteria follows. Better late than never, right?

Show

• Originality
  This is the most subjective category, so there will probably be disagreements. A similarity between two entries is not penalized.
  
  + Use of a race / class / ACF I did not expect, or a race / class / ACF that rarely sees play in IC competitions, to my experience.
  + The build uses tricks I have rarely heard about.
  + Original and / or compelling backstory and / or presentation. Bonus if it makes me laugh or if, after reading, I genuinely care about the character. I like being entertained.
  - Use of a very popular race / subrace / dip / ACF / template. No deductions are made for popular classes if you take them for more than 2 levels.
  - The build uses very well-known strategies / tricks, or worse, no tricks at all are apparent or mentioned.
  - I didn't find the backstory or the character interesting.
  
  
• Power
  In order not to pit Monks against Erudite Psions, the competing builds will not be compared with one another.
  I will judge the power of your entry against that of a standard similar build. As a simple example, a Warlock entry might be judged against a straight Warlock / Hellfire Warlock.
  
  + There are levels where your build is more powerful than the standard build in most of its focuses.
  + Your build is more versatile than the standard build.
  + You depend less on specific equipment.
  - There are levels where your build is less powerful than the standard build in its main focus.
  - Your build loses versatility compared to the standard build.
  - Your build requires one or more specific magic items to be available for it to function properly.
  
  
• Elegance
  I ignore alignment restrictions on races. For this contest, I will ignore the supposed effect of taint on alignment and assume that you keep all of your Corrupt Avenger abilities if you cease to qualify.
  
  + Your build shows an emphasis on the fluff of the classes / races / fluff-based feats / ACFs you use, and they make sense with each other.
  + All of your levels in a same class are taken in succession. These points are also awarded if the only interruption for your class is all of the levels you take in the SI.
  - You use dips and / or templates.
  - You disregard the fluff of some of the classes / races / feats / ACF you use.
  - You use shady rules interpretations.
  - You don't qualify for some of your classes / feats.
  - I would hesitate to accept (or outright reject) your build for a campaign I am running.
  
  
• Use of Secret Ingredient
  I personally don't care if you take the SI to completion if you don't benefit from the later abilities.
  
  + I can feel the corruption, and I can feel the vengeance.
  + Your build uses an aspect of the SI in a meaningful way.
  ++++ Your build uses Tainted Strike in a meaningful way.
  - Your build would be better off with fewer (or no) levels in the SI.
  - Your build relies on shady rules interpretations to qualify.
  
  0 You don't qualify for the SI. Yes, that is an immediate 0. Come on, the requirements are straightforward.
  0 You don't take a level in the SI.
  

Judging Originality now. For the sake of objectivity, I won't read anything posted after the builds until I am done judging, so if there are any questions, please send me a PM.

[The Viscount]

The other was a nhilist using Spellthief and UrPriest, advancing UrPriest with the SI and gaining high corruption for ridiculously high DC's and 9th level spells by level 20. In effect, this was the Power play. "The gods do not exist, the Weave does not exist. The only thing that exists is entropy and decay into oblivion, and I am that force made manifest."

I also had an idea for a Paladin/Blackguard/Corrupt Avenger, getting twice my charisma to saves, casting nearly everything as a swift action with high DC's, and beating things bloody.

I'm intrigued. How would you get around the simultaneous evil and nonevil requirements for blackguard and corrupt avenger? Also, how would you advance Ur-Priest with the SI?

My plan was to make a daelkyr half-blood fangshield ranger 5/SI1/Impure Prince 1/SI+9/IP+4 with the backstory that taint stems from breaches from Xoriat leaking madness and corruption into our world. Impure prince gives restoration, which could be used to keep taint levels in check. I didn't have the time to build it, and realized that I might potentially be a corruption pinata, so didn't finish.

[thethird]

Viscount I also had a build like that in my back burner.

[Eldonauran]

I'm intrigued. How would you get around the simultaneous evil and nonevil requirements for blackguard and corrupt avenger?

My guess is Hellbred.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think Hellbred's "Evil Exception" only works for Magic Items and spells, though since the ruling of "You must continue to qualify for a Prg. Class or you loose everything" is quite contested, or he might have made the character fall to black guard satus after finishing CA.

No idea really.

[Eldonauran]

I think Hellbred's "Evil Exception" only works for Magic Items and spells, though since the ruling of "You must continue to qualify for a Prg. Class or you loose everything" is quite contested, or he might have made the character fall to black guard satus after finishing CA.

No idea really.

Ah, I can see that then.

Personally, I'm of the mind that you don't lose your abilities in a prestige class unless that prestige class specifically says you do. The only thing you lose is the ability to advance further in the prestige class until you meet the requirements again. Whether or not the ability you lost access to cripples your prestige class (say if the entire class was built around a specific ability), depends on the class.

[The Viscount]

While plenty do interpret it that way, Iron Chef rules say you must keep qualifying for PrCs you enter.

@thethird: Similar in the build, or similar in that it was a corruption pinata?

[thethird]

Same build. I discarded it since ranger was expected and my other idea was more engaging.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm intrigued. How would you get around the simultaneous evil and nonevil requirements for blackguard and corrupt avenger? Also, how would you advance Ur-Priest with the SI?

By doing the Fall Shuffle. Specifically, there is nothing in Blackguard regarding falling and losing class abilities if your alignment turns non-evil.

As far as UrPriest... there's a couple of ways for divine spells to be considered arcane. Granted, it's generally done going the other way 'round, but...

[The Viscount]

Come again? Even if they are arcane spells, the SI doesn't progress casting.

[yougi]

While plenty do interpret it that way, Iron Chef rules say you must keep qualifying for PrCs you enter.

I've just re-read the competition's rule, and I don't see that anywhere. Could you point me to that ruling?

[Socratov]

it has not been explicitly stated at the moment, this may have been decided in an earlier IC. However, expect a serious deduction in elegance and use of SI if you stop qualifying for the SI

[Piggy Knowles]

I don't think it's an actual rule in IC, but rather something that most judges will penalize heavily for.

[The Viscount]

Yes, I should have clarified. I don't think it actually says it in the OP, but historically most if not all judges will smack you for not qualifying for your classes, doubly if not for the SI.

[OMG PONIES]

Yes, I should have clarified. I don't think it actually says it in the OP, but historically most if not all judges will smack you for not qualifying for your classes, doubly if not for the SI.

Qualifying to enter your classes, yes. Maintaining qualification requirements after entering is different, and may be viewed differently by individual judges.

[relytdan]

to the best of my knowledge only a couple source books that you need to maintain prerequisites to keep the class abilities, but as is stated its generally a good idea to maintain prerequisites for any class in this competition to not do so would probly see deductions.

[Dusk Eclipse]

to the best of my knowledge only a couple source books that you need to maintain prerequisites to keep the class abilities, but as is stated its generally a good idea to maintain prerequisites for any class in this competition to not do so would probly see deductions.

That is what I meant by contested, some people argue that since the DM is the primary source for Prestige classes, that particular ruling only apply to prestige classes in those books (CArc & CWar), some people argue that the rule applies to every prestige class (Introducing the Schrodingeir Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest dysfunction)

[yougi]

That is what I meant by contested, some people argue that since the DM is the primary source for Prestige classes, that particular ruling only apply to prestige classes in those books (CArc & CWar), some people argue that the rule applies to every prestige class (Introducing the Schrodingeir Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest dysfunction)

And I believed I was the only one not sharing the opinion that this was a cheap trick. Well well well...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Which do you believe to be a cheap trick? Personally I believe that is why the ex-something headers are.