A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    I'm kind of confused about some of the entries...

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    hellreaver requires good alignment, but doesn't corruption change your alignment to neutral or evil?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    And here I thought we'd have a small crop of entries this round. Silly me.
    16 entries is a small crop for IC lately!

    My second entry was going to be a CW Samurai 6/Corrupt Avenger 10/Avenging Executioner 4 with a focus on demoralizing his sworn foes into a cower and then coup de grace them with a tainted iaijutsu strike.

    Kinda glad I didn't get him entered since there are a lot of similar ideas.
    Last edited by dysprosium; 2013-10-22 at 09:18 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Wow, that's ... that's a lot of spellthieves.
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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadline View Post
    Wow, that's ... that's a lot of spellthieves.
    It will be interesting to see how that distribution of Classes gets rated by the judges for Originality.
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  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by fishyfishyfishy View Post
    hellreaver requires good alignment, but doesn't corruption change your alignment to neutral or evil?
    The taint has no changes to alignment. In fact Corrupt Avenger requires non-evil alignment and moderate corruption. There are issues regarding whether or not Depravity would change your alignment because you're murderous, hubristic, etc. however if St. Cuthbert can turn his cleric into a Ettin and watch it murder people without changing their alignment then I don't think depravity would have much of an effect, but now we're into an alignment debate but HoH p. 67.

    There is the section HoH page 67 about codes of conduct which specifically states a Paladin with moderate loses all Paladin spells and abilities, and address Clerics of good at severe.
    Last edited by Tim Proctor; 2013-10-22 at 09:46 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    There is a Small comment regarding taint and alignment change. Essentially, it is a DM's call, but it is suggested Moderate = neutral, Severe = evil.

    Then again, so is Deathwatch.

  7. - Top - End - #307
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    *+*
    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    P.S. I was under the impression that master spellthief is a hidden classfeature, just like natural spell for druids...
    Complete Scoundrel, p. 79

    I don't read anything to hint such.
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  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    It will be interesting to see how that distribution of Classes gets rated by the judges for Originality.
    I wanted to add onto this since there is a lot of spellthief/hellreaver comments, and even though I didn't submit a spellthief or a hellreaver I figured that people should get a actual analysis of classes were used multiple times.

    {table=head]Class | # | %
    Barbarian | 3 | 18.75
    Crusader | 2 | 12.5
    Hellreaver | 3 | 18.75
    Paladin | 2 | 12.5
    Ranger | 3 | 18.75
    Spellthief | 4 | 25
    Swordsage | 2 | 12.5
    Warblade | 2 | 12.5 [/table]
    I am what lurks under your bridge, I am the troll...

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  9. - Top - End - #309
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    There is a Small comment regarding taint and alignment change. Essentially, it is a DM's call, but it is suggested Moderate = neutral, Severe = evil.

    Then again, so is Deathwatch.
    That must be where I got that in my head from then.
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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Proctor View Post
    *+*

    Complete Scoundrel, p. 79

    I don't read anything to hint such.
    it wasn't that I couldn't find it (I used it earlier in a build I played), it's just that it's such a basic feat to take that it might as well be a classfeature, much like a druid who, upon reaching druid level 6, has the option to take the feat natural spell, and would be a fool not to do so. Even when singleclassed spellthief ithelps you by making sure you can cast stolen spells in light armor without acrane spellcasting failure. For instance without the feat, if you would steal a spell from a wizard you'd cast the spell like a wizard and the arcane spellcasting failure chance woudl apply because of wearing light armour. With the feat you can cast it without the chance of failure due to light armour.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Also, I love DnD Tools. Like, I want to have it's babies
    Personally I wouldn't go that far but it is a great site.
    Last edited by dysprosium; 2013-10-22 at 01:40 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    There's goodness here, I'm definitely going to judge.

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    • Originality
      This is the most subjective category, so there will probably be disagreements. A similarity between two entries is not penalized.

      + Use of a race / class / ACF I did not expect, or a race / class / ACF that rarely sees play in IC competitions, to my experience.
      + The build uses tricks I have rarely heard about.
      + Original and / or compelling backstory and / or presentation. Bonus if it makes me laugh or if, after reading, I genuinely care about the character. I like being entertained.
      - Use of a very popular race / subrace / dip / ACF / template. No deductions are made for popular classes if you take them for more than 2 levels.
      - The build uses very well-known strategies / tricks, or worse, no tricks at all are apparent or mentioned.
      - I didn't find the backstory or the character interesting.

    • Power
      In order not to pit Monks against Erudite Psions, the competing builds will not be compared with one another.
      I will judge the power of your entry against that of a standard similar build. As a simple example, a Warlock entry might be judged against a straight Warlock / Hellfire Warlock.

      + There are levels where your build is more powerful than the standard build in most of its focuses.
      + Your build is more versatile than the standard build.
      + You depend less on specific equipment.
      - There are levels where your build is less powerful than the standard build in its main focus.
      - Your build loses versatility compared to the standard build.
      - Your build requires one or more specific magic items to be available for it to function properly.

    • Elegance
      I ignore alignment restrictions on races. For this contest, I will ignore the supposed effect of taint on alignment and assume that you keep all of your Corrupt Avenger abilities if you cease to qualify.

      + Your build shows an emphasis on the fluff of the classes / races / fluff-based feats / ACFs you use, and they make sense with each other.
      + All of your levels in a same class are taken in succession. These points are also awarded if the only interruption for your class is all of the levels you take in the SI.
      - You use dips and / or templates.
      - You disregard the fluff of some of the classes / races / feats / ACF you use.
      - You use shady rules interpretations.
      - You don't qualify for some of your classes / feats.
      - I would hesitate to accept (or outright reject) your build for a campaign I am running.

    • Use of Secret Ingredient
      I personally don't care if you take the SI to completion if you don't benefit from the later abilities.

      + I can feel the corruption, and I can feel the vengeance.
      + Your build uses an aspect of the SI in a meaningful way.
      ++++ Your build uses Tainted Strike in a meaningful way.
      - Your build would be better off with fewer (or no) levels in the SI.
      - Your build relies on shady rules interpretations to qualify.

      0 You don't qualify for the SI. Yes, that is an immediate 0. Come on, the requirements are straightforward.
      0 You don't take a level in the SI.





    Judging Originality now. For the sake of objectivity, I won't read anything posted after the builds until I am done judging, so if there are any questions, please send me a PM.

  13. - Top - End - #313
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    The other was a nhilist using Spellthief and UrPriest, advancing UrPriest with the SI and gaining high corruption for ridiculously high DC's and 9th level spells by level 20. In effect, this was the Power play. "The gods do not exist, the Weave does not exist. The only thing that exists is entropy and decay into oblivion, and I am that force made manifest."

    I also had an idea for a Paladin/Blackguard/Corrupt Avenger, getting twice my charisma to saves, casting nearly everything as a swift action with high DC's, and beating things bloody.
    I'm intrigued. How would you get around the simultaneous evil and nonevil requirements for blackguard and corrupt avenger? Also, how would you advance Ur-Priest with the SI?

    My plan was to make a daelkyr half-blood fangshield ranger 5/SI1/Impure Prince 1/SI+9/IP+4 with the backstory that taint stems from breaches from Xoriat leaking madness and corruption into our world. Impure prince gives restoration, which could be used to keep taint levels in check. I didn't have the time to build it, and realized that I might potentially be a corruption pinata, so didn't finish.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2013-10-22 at 01:29 PM.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Viscount I also had a build like that in my back burner.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    I'm intrigued. How would you get around the simultaneous evil and nonevil requirements for blackguard and corrupt avenger?
    My guess is Hellbred.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    I think Hellbred's "Evil Exception" only works for Magic Items and spells, though since the ruling of "You must continue to qualify for a Prg. Class or you loose everything" is quite contested, or he might have made the character fall to black guard satus after finishing CA.

    No idea really.
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  17. - Top - End - #317
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    I think Hellbred's "Evil Exception" only works for Magic Items and spells, though since the ruling of "You must continue to qualify for a Prg. Class or you loose everything" is quite contested, or he might have made the character fall to black guard satus after finishing CA.

    No idea really.
    Ah, I can see that then.

    Personally, I'm of the mind that you don't lose your abilities in a prestige class unless that prestige class specifically says you do. The only thing you lose is the ability to advance further in the prestige class until you meet the requirements again. Whether or not the ability you lost access to cripples your prestige class (say if the entire class was built around a specific ability), depends on the class.
    Last edited by Eldonauran; 2013-10-22 at 01:16 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #318
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    While plenty do interpret it that way, Iron Chef rules say you must keep qualifying for PrCs you enter.

    @thethird: Similar in the build, or similar in that it was a corruption pinata?
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  19. - Top - End - #319
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Same build. I discarded it since ranger was expected and my other idea was more engaging.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    I'm intrigued. How would you get around the simultaneous evil and nonevil requirements for blackguard and corrupt avenger? Also, how would you advance Ur-Priest with the SI?
    By doing the Fall Shuffle. Specifically, there is nothing in Blackguard regarding falling and losing class abilities if your alignment turns non-evil.

    As far as UrPriest... there's a couple of ways for divine spells to be considered arcane. Granted, it's generally done going the other way 'round, but...
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  21. - Top - End - #321
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Come again? Even if they are arcane spells, the SI doesn't progress casting.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  22. - Top - End - #322
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    While plenty do interpret it that way, Iron Chef rules say you must keep qualifying for PrCs you enter.
    I've just re-read the competition's rule, and I don't see that anywhere. Could you point me to that ruling?
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  23. - Top - End - #323
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    it has not been explicitly stated at the moment, this may have been decided in an earlier IC. However, expect a serious deduction in elegance and use of SI if you stop qualifying for the SI
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  24. - Top - End - #324
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    I don't think it's an actual rule in IC, but rather something that most judges will penalize heavily for.
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  25. - Top - End - #325
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Yes, I should have clarified. I don't think it actually says it in the OP, but historically most if not all judges will smack you for not qualifying for your classes, doubly if not for the SI.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  26. - Top - End - #326
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    Yes, I should have clarified. I don't think it actually says it in the OP, but historically most if not all judges will smack you for not qualifying for your classes, doubly if not for the SI.
    Qualifying to enter your classes, yes. Maintaining qualification requirements after entering is different, and may be viewed differently by individual judges.
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  27. - Top - End - #327
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    to the best of my knowledge only a couple source books that you need to maintain prerequisites to keep the class abilities, but as is stated its generally a good idea to maintain prerequisites for any class in this competition to not do so would probly see deductions.

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by relytdan View Post
    to the best of my knowledge only a couple source books that you need to maintain prerequisites to keep the class abilities, but as is stated its generally a good idea to maintain prerequisites for any class in this competition to not do so would probly see deductions.
    That is what I meant by contested, some people argue that since the DM is the primary source for Prestige classes, that particular ruling only apply to prestige classes in those books (CArc & CWar), some people argue that the rule applies to every prestige class (Introducing the Schrodingeir Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest dysfunction)
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  29. - Top - End - #329
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    That is what I meant by contested, some people argue that since the DM is the primary source for Prestige classes, that particular ruling only apply to prestige classes in those books (CArc & CWar), some people argue that the rule applies to every prestige class (Introducing the Schrodingeir Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest dysfunction)
    And I believed I was the only one not sharing the opinion that this was a cheap trick. Well well well...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

    Which do you believe to be a cheap trick? Personally I believe that is why the ex-something headers are.
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