Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L

[OMG PONIES]

Giorgio
power - math error
Score should be 13.25

Sorry to drag this out, but just to confirm: even though the individual Power deductions only list -1.5 in deductions for a total score of 13.75, you're holding to -2 in Power deductions for a total score of 13.25, thus penalizing the build for no other reason than an addition error on the part of the judge?

It appears that I forgot to change the 12 to 13...
Score 13.75
total penalties: 6.25
Originality -2
Power -1.5
Elegance -1
UsotSI -1.75

Thanks for updating! I think that takes care of any math errors.

Tallies, Wherever we Are Now!
{table=head]Entry|Medal|Total|Average
Rand Turimbar|Gold|48.75|4.0625
Sir Driscoll Conia|Silver|44.75|3.72916666666667
Designation MDCCCLXXXVI|Bronze|44|3.66666666666666667
Brooswayn Scourgesoul|Fourth|43.75|3.64583333333333
The Lost Crab|Fourth|43.75|3.64583333333333
Angelique A'lanale|Sixth|43|3.583333333
Eillyassa Miltal|Seventh|42.75|3.5625
Braxton|Eighth|42.25|3.5208333333
Magralyx|Ninth|41.75|3.479166667
Leilani|Tenth|41.25|3.4375
The Damned of the Crab|Eleventh|40.25|3.354166667
Shane MacLaughlan|Twelfth|39.5|3.291666667
Bug|Thirteenth|38.25|3.1875
Giorgio|Fourteenth|36.5|3.04166666666667
Smeagol|Fifteenth|34.5|2.875
Pantaleon Dalence|Sixteenth|33.25|2.77083333333333333[/table]

[yougi]

Not to comment on any other person's judging, but I just have to say if/when I ever judge again, I would always give a penalty for not taking all levels of the SI (and this would be listed in my criteria), no matter how well justified in the write-up.

If it was only short by 1 or 2 levels, the penalty would be light, but it would still be there.

I agree with that. Just like I think that penalties for not qualifying for stuff (especially the SI) are a bit light. Then again, given the amount of work that goes into judging, I won't criticize.

[Korahir]

Not to comment on any other person's judging, but I just have to say if/when I ever judge again, I would always give a penalty for not taking all levels of the SI (and this would be listed in my criteria), no matter how well justified in the write-up.

If it was only short by 1 or 2 levels, the penalty would be light, but it would still be there.

Yeah I'm still torn if I should add a -0,25 penalty to Magralyx for not completing but since it wouldn't change anything I will refrain from it now.

@Yougi: When I am judge, please feel free to point out everything you find a little odd. It's the only way for me to improve my judgings and learn from it.

[relytdan]

@Yougi: It's the only way for me to improve my judgings and learn from it.

well I think with the things that I learned from this round is folks like lots of explainations and if I decided to do this again I would certainly give lots of explainations, but otherwise agree.

[Piggy Knowles]

I know it doesn't make too much of a difference since I'm not judging this round, but when I judge, I always penalize for not using part of the SI. So, if you only take, say, eight levels in the SI, you're clearly not using all of it, and you'll get a penalty.

That said, to me it's no better to take ten levels of the SI for the sake of form, but completely ignore the last two, than it is to only take eight levels and do something useful with those last two levels.

Basically, to put the analogy back in the realm of food - if the secret ingredient is trout, you'll score higher if you find a use for the scales or the head. But if you're NOT using the scales or the head, don't leave it on the plate just so that it looks like you're using the whole ingredient!

Regarding late or early entry, while I personally don't strictly penalize for late entry, I do look at whether abilities come online at a level where they're relevant. If the SI gives you DR/magic, for example, I'm probably going to find it a lot more useful if you pick it up at level 6 than if you pick it up at level 11, and I will score accordingly. So most builds that enter the SI late do end up getting dinged for it, but not because I arbitrarily think that late entry is bad and early entry is good. If your build makes a good case for why it makes the most logical sense to enter later, I'll probably consider it.

Again, though, these are just my own thoughts on the matter, and every judge handles things differently.

[yougi]

@Yougi: When I am judge, please feel free to point out everything you find a little odd. It's the only way for me to improve my judgings and learn from it.

Well that's pretty much what I had to say, and I meant it more as a "my style of judging would be X" than "judges who don't do X are bad judges". Then again, seeing how much hate I get from students based on my correcting, maybe that should not be applied to a light and for fun competition.

snippity snip

That's quite a solid point. I never understood the penalties for late entrance in the SI. Those explanations make lots of sense, although I don't know if all judges have the same perspective on the matter.

[Amphetryon]

That's quite a solid point. I never understood the penalties for late entrance in the SI. Those explanations make lots of sense, although I don't know if all judges have the same perspective on the matter.

It's always been part and parcel to why I have penalized late entry, as a judge. Many PrCs - particularly those of the "quality" that tends to make them good Iron Chef candidates - have abilities that are of marginal use within a specific band of a Character's adventuring career. Delaying access to those abilities often means getting them when they're no longer especially relevant.

For example: If a hypothetical non-caster PrC gets you access to Alter Self at Character Level 7 when entered on-time, it's still within the period of time in that Character's career when Alter Self is both powerful and relatively uncommon to get at that point. If the progression the Character takes delays access to Alter Self until Character Level 12, it's been delayed to the point where there are often better options than Alter Self, or, at a minimum, easier ways to get limited access to it with simple WBL.

[Gwachitallemall]

I just have one thing to say, about the Table.

The table says that Braxton and Magralyx are tied, however, they are .5 different, so it should be eighth and ninth, not eighth and eighth.

[Treme]

i would just like to say this has been very interesting following this challenge develop from the start! Great work all round by contestants and judges. I put Sir Driscoll down as my favourite so glad thats ranking highly.

I'm relatively new to this sort of character building but hope one day to join in as a competitor if the right ingredient comes along.. hats off to judges though I don't think i've got the knowhow yet to quite take that role! Are there usually this many disputes?

Finally.. I've browsed through many of the previous challenges but there are a lot! Any standout recommendations to read that people can offer?

Good luck to all

[Kuulvheysoon]

i would just like to say this has been very interesting following this challenge develop from the start! Great work all round by contestants and judges. I put Sir Driscoll down as my favourite so glad thats ranking highly.

I'm relatively new to this sort of character building but hope one day to join in as a competitor if the right ingredient comes along.. hats off to judges though I don't think i've got the knowhow yet to quite take that role! Are there usually this many disputes?

Finally.. I've browsed through many of the previous challenges but there are a lot! Any standout recommendations to read that people can offer?

Good luck to all

There's not usually this many disputes, no. Maybe about.. 3/4 per judge is more regular.

If you haven't, I'd suggest reading the first link in the FAQ thread - it leads to a different thread called Hints for the Iron Chef Noob (or something along those lines).

[Treme]

There's not usually this many disputes, no. Maybe about.. 3/4 per judge is more regular.

If you haven't, I'd suggest reading the first link in the FAQ thread - it leads to a different thread called Hints for the Iron Chef Noob (or something along those lines).

Yep read that already, was more after any standout entries from previous challenges that are 'must reads' if they're are any that shouldnt be missed?

dont want to side track this thread anymore so i'll butt out from now on!

[WhamBamSam]

I agree with that. Just like I think that penalties for not qualifying for stuff (especially the SI) are a bit light. Then again, given the amount of work that goes into judging, I won't criticize.

Some judges, including myself when I judged last round, will give a flat 0 in UoSI if the build doesn't qualify. But as someone who makes small feat qualification mistakes with some regularity, I understand a bit of leniency when it comes to other things, and such penalties are still hardly insignificant. Take Ponies' scoring rubric for instance. The difference between qualifying for everything, and not qualifying for something is a full point, which would be enough to move many of the builds on the table up or down multiple places, even in this three judge competition.

i would just like to say this has been very interesting following this challenge develop from the start! Great work all round by contestants and judges. I put Sir Driscoll down as my favourite so glad thats ranking highly.

I'm relatively new to this sort of character building but hope one day to join in as a competitor if the right ingredient comes along.. hats off to judges though I don't think i've got the knowhow yet to quite take that role! Are there usually this many disputes?

Finally.. I've browsed through many of the previous challenges but there are a lot! Any standout recommendations to read that people can offer?

Good luck to all

I lurked in Iron Chef for a long time before I started competing. You really can learn a lot of op-fu just by reading over the builds that people have made.

There are usually fewer and shorter disputes than this, but these things happen sometimes.

The Cipher Adept competition (which was my first one), might be a fun one to read over. The class had a special kind of relentless awfulness and restrictiveness that brought out a lot of creativity. On the other side of the coin, some of the more powerful classes like Shadow Sun Ninja and Divine Crusader gave people tools to work with, which resulted in cool stuff. Then maybe the Scion of Tem-Et-Nu competition because hippos, or the Drunken Master competition because alcohol, or whatever class seems interesting to you.

Alternately, you can get edited highlights of some of the best stuff by looking through the Hall of Heroes linked in Ponies' sig or at builds that won medals/honorable mentions which the chefs responsible sometimes link to in their sigs (Piggy has a lot of them and they're well deserved).

[dysprosium]

I lurked on this forum too for a long time before I got the nerve to enter.

My first entry was Bladesinger and I have been a part of the competition one way or another since including judging last round.

I second looking at winning builds in various participants' signatures--they all won for good reason.

And on judging, everyone is going to be a little different when it comes down to it. It's a matter of taste really--certain things strike a different chord with certain judges than with others.

[Piggy Knowles]

(Piggy has a lot of them and they're well deserved).

I appreciate the compliment - but I actually just culled all but the gold medal builds out of my sig, as I was trying to streamline things!

Some of my favorite competitions have been Cipher Adept, Death Delver, Dervish (Sanavakri in particular is a heavy contender for my favorite all-time IC build), Shadow Sentinel and Divine Crusader. All of them had particularly fun builds across the board, in my opinion. And while the style of building and judging has changed a lot over time, it's always tons of fun to read over some of the first IC competitions. For example, check out Stonelord to see the much-lauded Old Lob, which has the highest average score of any competition with multiple judges, or Drunken Master for the fantastic Gazebo Jones, the demon-worshipping drunken monk who turns himself into animated chairs that then beat people down.

[yougi]

It's always been part and parcel to why I have penalized late entry, as a judge. Many PrCs - particularly those of the "quality" that tends to make them good Iron Chef candidates - have abilities that are of marginal use within a specific band of a Character's adventuring career. Delaying access to those abilities often means getting them when they're no longer especially relevant.

For example: If a hypothetical non-caster PrC gets you access to Alter Self at Character Level 7 when entered on-time, it's still within the period of time in that Character's career when Alter Self is both powerful and relatively uncommon to get at that point. If the progression the Character takes delays access to Alter Self until Character Level 12, it's been delayed to the point where there are often better options than Alter Self, or, at a minimum, easier ways to get limited access to it with simple WBL.

That's true. I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) often only look at the level 20 character when looking at a build, and therefore will go with whatever will make the level 20 character stronger. For example, in this one, delaying entrance meant delaying the Taint bonus feat: in my build, [redacted]. On the other hand, however, I've seen judges penalize build for late entrance, when that late entrance didn't change much (at least from my perspective).

I'm relatively new to this sort of character building but hope one day to join in as a competitor if the right ingredient comes along.. hats off to judges though I don't think i've got the knowhow yet to quite take that role! Are there usually this many disputes?

If I may, I was in your situation two months ago: last month, I wanted to submit a dish, but ended up thinking it wouldn't be good enough, and so I scrapped it and didn't submit it. In the end, my dish was the exact same build as the one that won the silver medal (although my fluff would not have been as awesome-possum). I submitted this round, and I'm pretty proud of my result.

All this to say, believe in yourself. Also, a judge's comment will give you the feedback needed to make the jump. And finally, if you submit on a round in which Ponies and Piggy Knowles do not participate, you'll feel better about yourself!

Some judges, including myself when I judged last round, will give a flat 0 in UoSI if the build doesn't qualify. But as someone who makes small feat qualification mistakes with some regularity, I understand a bit of leniency when it comes to other things, and such penalties are still hardly insignificant. Take Ponies' scoring rubric for instance. The difference between qualifying for everything, and not qualifying for something is a full point, which would be enough to move many of the builds on the table up or down multiple places, even in this three judge competition.

It's true that some judges do fall down hard on those who fail to qualify for the SI: I was simply saying I'd be part of those. Qualifications for other things, I'd probably penalize quit heavily also, but for the SI, I find it baffling how often it happens. Half of the fun of IC is being original in fulfilling these funky pre-reqs!

[Keynub]

Ur-Priest's build in particular is one of my favorite all-time IC builds

Thanks for reminding me of the Dancing Kalashtar, I now have Dancing Queen stuck in my head.

[thethird]

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if we did IC anniversary edition and had entries using classes from the past.

[sabelo2000]

Oh wow... I had considered tossing in as a judge at some not-too-distant point, but reading through this round demonstrates to me just how much I have left to learn. Kudos to all the competitors and judges!

[OMG PONIES]

I just have one thing to say, about the Table.

The table says that Braxton and Magralyx are tied, however, they are .5 different, so it should be eighth and ninth, not eighth and eighth.

Thanks, I didn't change the place when I changed the score. It's been fixed.

Some judges, including myself when I judged last round, will give a flat 0 in UoSI if the build doesn't qualify. But as someone who makes small feat qualification mistakes with some regularity, I understand a bit of leniency when it comes to other things, and such penalties are still hardly insignificant. Take Ponies' scoring rubric for instance. The difference between qualifying for everything, and not qualifying for something is a full point, which would be enough to move many of the builds on the table up or down multiple places, even in this three judge competition.

I used to deduct a half-point for each feat missed and a full point for each class not qualified for. Failure to qualify for the Secret Ingredient used to receive a 0 in the UoSI category. Because of that, the scores I gave were really low. I came up with my rubric in part to streamline things and in part to not penalize someone too heavily if they had a fantastic class feature synergy but made a bookkeeping error that prevented qualification. As a judge, your mileage may vary.

And while the style of building and judging has changed a lot over time, it's always tons of fun to read over some of the first IC competitions. For example, check out Stonelord to see the much-lauded Old Lob, which has the highest average score of any competition with multiple judges, or Drunken Master for the fantastic Gazebo Jones, the demon-worshipping drunken monk who turns himself into animated chairs that then beat people down.

Actually, Piggy, your very own Parsifal the Fool is tied with Old Lob for that honor! I'll never forget that build, as it was the only one to receive a perfect score from me. Of course, that's because of our unholy alliance. Hey, speaking of...

And finally, if you submit on a round in which Ponies and Piggy Knowles do not participate, you'll feel better about yourself!

Please, we each have our hits and our misses. Plenty of optimization talent is floating around these parts!

[Korahir]

One thing i realized when skimming through old IC threads is that the builds that made me think: "I want to play this!", always have something very funny and lighthearted about them. Gazebo, Old Lob and Parsifal are excellent examples, Derek "Baelfire" Bragg is a more recent one.

[Vaz]

With all the issues regarding judgings etc, i do not believe there has been much speculation regarding the next round.

Personally, I'd love to see Slime Lord, and i know Gnome Giant Slayer is a 'popular' one. There is also Dragon Samurai, and possibly something like Atavist, Cerebrex, etc that could work well.

[OMG PONIES]

Actually, Piggy, your very own Parsifal the Fool is tied with Old Lob for that honor! I'll never forget that build, as it was the only one to receive a perfect score from me. Of course, that's because of our unholy alliance. Hey, speaking of...

I just realized this comment was wrong. In updating some recent rounds, rockdeworld's Aelquis Kethten from the Bladesinger round actually outdid both Old Lob and Parsifal in terms of scores! I'm feverishly updating scores on the spreadsheet to avoid another embarrassing faux pas. Congrats, rockdeworld!

With all the issues regarding judgings etc, i do not believe there has been much speculation regarding the next round.

Personally, I'd love to see Slime Lord, and i know Gnome Giant Slayer is a 'popular' one. There is also Dragon Samurai, and possibly something like Atavist, Cerebrex, etc that could work well.

Fine, Gnome Giant Slayer! Please, just don't bring out the puns. I'll be a good pony, I promise...

[dysprosium]

I know I usually cry out for Winterhaunt but it seems more of a December ingredient.

Slime Lord and Gnome Giant Slayer could be fun.

Atavist looks interesting too.

Dragon Samurai -- oh my! What do you do with that one?

Let's go with Aerial Avenger!

[Vaz]

Fine, Gnome Giant Slayer! Please, just don't bring out the puns. I'll be a good pony, I promise...

Surely you mean "pogny"?

[Socratov]

if it's going to be gnome giant slayer then I may want to try my hand at competing (if I have enough time that is)

[OMG PONIES]

Surely you mean "pogny"?

What did I ever do to you?

[The Viscount]

Let's go with Aerial Avenger!

Please no.

[Amphetryon]

Yep read that already, was more after any standout entries from previous challenges that are 'must reads' if they're are any that shouldnt be missed?

dont want to side track this thread anymore so i'll butt out from now on!

Please read Ultimo Tarrasco Jr, from the Warmind competition. It was really outstanding, IMO.

In other news, we've had lots of requests for Thief of Life; perhaps this will be the round?

[Vaz]

Sorry ponies!

Thief of Life: definately! Aerial Avenger; not so much. Its effects are mostly Numerical and minor for the most part.

[WhamBamSam]

Gnome Giant Slayer or could be fugn (I think that might be the worst ogne yet (okay seriously, stopping gnow (alright, sorry, I lied (...gnested paregnthesis))). Thief of Life could be really cool. I didn't think much of it the last few times it's been suggested, but looking at it again I've gotten a few ideas which I really like.

Aerial Avenger though... Ick. I could tolerate the fact that it can be Zinc Saucier'd pretty effectively by around ECL 7-10, but requiring two prereq feats that aren't good for anything but qualifying for Spring Attack and then giving you Flyby Attack which is Spring Attack+++ sans prereqs is where I draw the line.