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Thread: Ummm... help!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Ummm... help!

    Well, the reason I'm posting it here (and not the wizard's forum, where people are more active) is because the people here are smarter than in Wizards.
    Ok, now, I have a problem. I enjoy one class and one race (mostly) in D&D. Changeling(From Keith Baker's setting. You know, the one with the dinosaurs and the really cool robots.) Assassin(From Cityworks, published by Fantasy Flight Games). Now, my DM says that while each one is fair alone(After an hour of argument about each), the two together are insane. I argued with him about this point, but he seems convinced. I also asked him about the rogue to see his response, and it was "Well, the rogue is less combat oriented! The assassin is much better for changelings!"
    Can you please explain to him why it is fair, or to me why it isn't? And I'm not looking for the rampant DM hate that runs through the Wizard's forums, but intellegent answers that don't repeat each other.
    Tell me, or be smote by . Because you're evil.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    First of all...

    Changling is from Ebberon, and, although you are talking of some other assassin class, assassin is in the DMG as well. The version in the DMG is totally fine, sorry I dont know about the other one.

    I wouldnt say either of those is broken, even together.

    There... really isnt anything that would make this combonation unfair in my mind... I certainly have had MUCH more powerful character combonations and not screwed up game because 'omguber'.

    That being said, it sounds like a fun character anyhoo.

    Tis Halcyon Dax! Forsooth!

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Changeling is also in the MM3.

    Assuming the two are the same, I fail to see your DM's point. I see no way in which Changeling can possibly abuse the Assassin class, which isn't all that impressive to begin with.
    Quote:
    One of the hardest parts of DMing is to give players a reason to railroad themselves.
    (Originally Posted by Rockphed)

    Quote:
    You're making a reasonable and rational argument here, instead of pandering to the extremists on either side. Stop it. I'm pretty sure that's a banning offense on the internet.
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Not everyone owns this supplement of which you speak. Care to fill us in on the details of this class?
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    It is a rogue without the non sneak attack abilities, a weapon mastery for tiny weapons, d8 hit dice, full BAB, and an assassination ability that only works on humanoids that it gets at level 1. at level 10 he can assassinate anything. It's a base class.
    Also, he gets only 4 skills per level and only 4 charisma based skills. Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, and Disguise.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    How is this broken with changeling exactly?
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    I used it to change into someone a noble trusted to kill him.... I was a hired assassin who couldn't be tracked... I was generally very creative with my characters.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Wow, sucky DM.

    You are punished because... you are creative?

    Tis Halcyon Dax! Forsooth!

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Who is that different from a non-changeling assassin that uses a hat of disguise to do the same?

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    I would stick with changeling, and adopt the assasin PRC found in the DMG and SRD here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm .

    Thats all fair and balanced Im sure. I think most of the other board members would agree that that isnt overpowered in any way.

    Tis Halcyon Dax! Forsooth!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazzbaa View Post
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    Who is that different from a non-changeling assassin that uses a hat of disguise to do the same?
    To quote my DM: "The non-changeling has to pay for it!"
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.
    So, he throws a dragon or something else with True Sight and you are screwed... it wasnt that hard...

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    To quote my DM: "The non-changeling has to pay for it!"
    Like... Next to nothing? Hell, half orc with hat of disguise is propably overpowered, because he doesn't have to pay for +2 str bonus? Maybe most idiotic thing I have heard today. :D

    But well... How is that diffrent from normal assassin dipping one level to wizard or sorcerer or something and casting disguise self? Or then, just go rogue, max use magic device and buy a scroll of disguise self. Watch as your DM stares at you blindly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaka gl View Post
    So, he throws a dragon or something else with True Sight and you are screwed... it wasnt that hard...
    And then he says "But I don't want to hose you!" This was after supplying him with a few ideas like detect lies, antimagic zone, detect evil, and of course, Dispel Magic.
    And he's right about that. But what were fire elementals made for other than to challenge the wizard who usually uses his Fireballs on basilisks? I mentioned that to him, and he said "Oh, so now you want a dispel magic cast on you every single second? So your changings last one turn?" Also, we play in hebrew, and since mine isn't perfect I couldn't mention to him that dispel magic is not antimagic field and does allow supernatural abilities.
    Well, Pegasos, I'm still in shock from an apology made today but the shock is over, and now I'm glad to have made your day! My friend won't appreciate it, though.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    personally, I would think that if your DM will allow evil characters, just be a changeling rogue, and go into assassin from the DMG when you can.
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    The prestige class isn't really what I want... I'm looking for a warrior sneak attacker with bluff on his class list.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    The prestige class isn't really what I want... I'm looking for a warrior sneak attacker with bluff on his class list.
    You mean the Invisible Blade PrC from Complete Warrior?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    To quote my DM: "The non-changeling has to pay for it!"
    But a hat of disguise is only 1800gp! What level are you starting? Humans start with a bonus feat and at level 20 they have 23 more skill points how much is that worth?

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Yep. Point out that, say, dwarves get +2 CON--which is worth 4000 GP as a magic item--in addition to a host of other abilities. Humans get a bonus feat and free skill points, which you can't buy.

    Really, though, if your DM is unreasonable, he'll probably remain unreasonable. Some DMs have strange ideas, like "changeling assassins are uber" and "Warlocks are overpowered".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    But a hat of disguise is only 1800gp! What level are you starting? Humans start with a bonus feat and at level 20 they have 23 more skill points how much is that worth?

    I know you didn't expect an answer but I would say that skillpoints could go with the "enchantment bonus to skill is bonus squared * 100" rule, so 23*23*100 = 52900gp. Sounds reasonable, actuallly. Pricing a feat would be damn hard
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    You could always multiclass with swashbuckler... One of my favorite combos is a Swashbuckler/Rouge with 2 weapon fighting and weapon finesse. Insightful Strike is pretty awesome, as is the full BAB for the few levels you'll take as a SB. Take Rouge for the rest, or something from Complete Adventurer.

    I tend to prefer the ring of chameleon power to the hat of disguise due to the rediculous bonus to hide checks. :) wicked.
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Take Rogue, instead. Rouge is make-up.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    You mean the Invisible Blade PrC from Complete Warrior?
    ...
    I also dislike Prestige Classes and the way they're used. They should be a suggestion made by the DM, not a choice made by the player before the game. Maybe later on when the player wants to specialize in becoming completely beserk he can take levels in Frenzied Rager if the DM wants.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    ...
    I also dislike Prestige Classes and the way they're used. They should be a suggestion made by the DM, not a choice made by the player before the game. Maybe later on when the player wants to specialize in becoming completely beserk he can take levels in Frenzied Rager if the DM wants.
    ...Wha?

    So some decisisions about your character's class and character progress should be up to the DM? I really have to disagree here...I strongly prefer freedom to make my character what I want, and I admit the DM has some say in it, alot depending on the campaign and how he runs it, but not all. The character is yours.

    Honestly I like the idea of just being a rogue. If you want to be a warrior as well you can always take some fighter levels. Maby even not bother with a PrC. You don't need the assassin PrC to be a assassin in game. You just need to kill stuff for money.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    I don't like the way one of the players overuses prestige classes. Every time he makes a character he looks in splatbook X for a prestige class that combines with the feat from splatbook Y.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    So, just because you used your racial shapechanging power to get close to a target, you're broken. Guess what- THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ABILITY!

    It replicates a Disguise Self. You can get it for 1800gp in a Hat of Disguise. To get this ability you gave:(choose one) +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Str, A bonus feat and skill points, Racial Power Points etc. I think your DM has a screwed sense of balance. Either that or he's one of these "My players are solving challenges by thinkin and being creative rather than just beating things up. THEY'RE DOING IOTN WRONG" DMs.

    Oh, and on the PrC thing: The idea is that you shoot for them from character creation. Thats the only way you can actually expect to get in to one.
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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Maybe one like Weaponmaster. But if you want to take Assassin or Warhulk it's easy.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    His main problem is with the assassin. He thinks both are unfair, but the assassin is the main perpetrator.
    My DM's words exactly about why the assassin is unfair.
    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    The assassin is too much of a fighting class. The whole point of the rogue was that because of the sneak attack, he would always try to catch his enemies flat footed. As a response to that, his BAB was lower than a fighter, and so were his hit dice. When compared to that, the Assassin has
    A) More life.
    B)A full BAB and sneak attack, which gives him an unfair advantage to hit and damage in battle.
    C) The insane ability Death Attack, which he gets at level one (Pita's note: only to humanoids), without any cost attached, is not reasonable.
    Ceika is a beautiful, wonderful person. The avatar was made by his/her great talent, and depending on his/her sex and sexuality, I either have a giant crush or a totally appropriate liking for him/her.

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    Default Re: Ummm... help!

    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.
    Exactly the same with my friend. He plays a Fey'Ri. (shape-changing + chaotic alignment = one annoying mother trucker.)
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