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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Spoiler: Introduction
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    Most 3E old-timers that chanced upon PF noticed the changes made to the polymorph subschool's workings. Specifically, those spells no longer replace the caster's own physical ability scores, merely giving a bonus to them now. As the Druid's Wild Shape is entirely based upon those spells, the class has been indirectly hit by the nerf-hammer. You can't really dump your own physical ability scores and still be a melee powerhouse quite like you did in 3E.

    A lot of people liked those changes, as it mostly made sense. If you want to pose as the group's face-smasher, you actually have to invest in that aspect, or you won't live for very long.

    It didn't come as a surprise, then, that many were baffled when the Synthesist Summoner archetype was published. The Synthesist can do in PF what the Druid (or any other polymorpher) could in 3E: dump it's physical ability scores and still rock at melee combat.

    Snowbluff proposed a little fix here, and I believe it can work quite well. Basically, you just take the base form's physical stats, subtract a set value from it and gives the resulting number as a bonus to the character's own stats. In my opinion, the values can be adjusted a little more harshly than what was suggested by Snowbluff, though, by subtracting 12 or 13 from the Eidolon's base stats. The end result is quite nice: it aligns quite well with what can be expected from a Druid, gives the Synthesist a reason to invest in physical ability scores, and even means that the character can increase his physical stats and see that reflected in combat.

    The end result is the following:

    A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesistís movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolonís senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. The synthesist directs all of the eidolonís actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

    While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist gains bonuses to his physical ability scores, as determined by his eidolon's base form. The synthesist gains the eidolonís hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolonís base attack bonus, and gains the eidolonís armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolonís special abilities and the eidolonís evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolonís maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolonís temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.

    While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summonerís normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the classís eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

    Base Form's Ability Score Adjustments

    Quadruped: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity.

    Biped: +4 Strength.

    Serpentine: +4 Dexterity.

    Aquatic: +4 Strength.
    Metal Perfection - a template for creatures born on Mirrodin.
    True Ferocity - a simple fix for Orcs and Half-Orcs.
    Monastic Magus - a spiritual successor to the Unarmed Swordsage.
    Pathfinder-ish Synthesist - a simple fix making Synthesist Summoners follow polymorph rules.
    Sword & Sorcery for Sneaky Scoundrels - rogue archetypes/fixes that aim to turn the rogue into a warrior/caster.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    Spoiler: Introduction
    Show
    Most 3E old-timers that chanced upon PF noticed the changes made to the polymorph subschool's workings. Specifically, those spells no longer replace the caster's own physical ability scores, merely giving a bonus to them now. As the Druid's Wild Shape is entirely based upon those spells, the class has been indirectly hit by the nerf-hammer. You can't really dump your own physical ability scores and still be a melee powerhouse quite like you did in 3E.

    A lot of people liked those changes, as it mostly made sense. If you want to pose as the group's face-smasher, you actually have to invest in that aspect, or you won't live for very long.

    It didn't come as a surprise, then, that many were baffled when the Synthesist Summoner archetype was published. The Synthesist can do in PF what the Druid (or any other polymorpher) could in 3E: dump it's physical ability scores and still rock at melee combat.

    Snowbluff proposed a little fix here, and I believe it can work quite well. Basically, you just take the base form's physical stats, subtract a set value from it and gives the resulting number as a bonus to the character's own stats. In my opinion, the values can be adjusted a little more harshly than what was suggested by Snowbluff, though, by subtracting 12 or 13 from the Eidolon's base stats. The end result is quite nice: it aligns quite well with what can be expected from a Druid, gives the Synthesist a reason to invest in physical ability scores, and even means that the character can increase his physical stats and see that reflected in combat.

    The end result is the following:

    A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesistís movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolonís senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. The synthesist directs all of the eidolonís actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

    While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist gains bonuses to his physical ability scores, as determined by his eidolon's base form. The synthesist gains the eidolonís hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolonís base attack bonus, and gains the eidolonís armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolonís special abilities and the eidolonís evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolonís maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolonís temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.

    While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summonerís normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the classís eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

    Base Form's Ability Score Adjustments

    Quadruped: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity.

    Biped: +4 Strength.

    Serpentine: +4 Dexterity.

    Aquatic: +4 Strength.
    Believe it or not you actually kind of made it better the best base physical score that can be obtained at level 1 is a strength of 16. Assuming of course you keep the base ability increases that is a +15 bonus in the end not including any evolutions. If you still decide to keep it you might want to add one with a constitution bonus.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

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    Default Re: A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    *raises hand*

    Do the eidolon abilities scores still level with the summoner level?
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    Believe it or not you actually kind of made it better the best base physical score that can be obtained at level 1 is a strength of 16. Assuming of course you keep the base ability increases that is a +15 bonus in the end not including any evolutions. If you still decide to keep it you might want to add one with a constitution bonus.
    I'm well aware of it. But with this fix, if the Summoner wants to be a melee beast, it at least has to invest into it. Using the archetype as published, you can pretty much pump Charisma to the ceiling, dump everything else (eh, no one ever dumps Con, but still) and still kick faces quite competently. Now you have a choice: you can either dump your physical stats and rely solely on spells (in which case I wouldn't even know why you'd be playing a Synthesist), invest a little in physical stats too to be competent in melee and spells, or pump Str and Con and be a wrecking ball at the cost of your spellcasting.

    About the Constitution-increasing form, it's not a bad idea. It's kind of outside the scope of a "simple fix", though, and I must confess I can't think of a form that isn't covered by what we already have (damn you, tortoises, why'd you have to go and have four legs? ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    *raises hand*

    Do the eidolon abilities scores still level with the summoner level?
    It shouldn't, as the character already has level-based stat increases, and can take evolutions to adjust the stats further. I wouldn't be against giving a +2 floating bonus to any physical stat at level 10 or so, though.
    Last edited by Larkas; 2013-10-10 at 10:51 PM.
    Metal Perfection - a template for creatures born on Mirrodin.
    True Ferocity - a simple fix for Orcs and Half-Orcs.
    Monastic Magus - a spiritual successor to the Unarmed Swordsage.
    Pathfinder-ish Synthesist - a simple fix making Synthesist Summoners follow polymorph rules.
    Sword & Sorcery for Sneaky Scoundrels - rogue archetypes/fixes that aim to turn the rogue into a warrior/caster.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

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    Default Re: A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    It shouldn't, as the character already has level-based stat increases, and can take evolutions to adjust the stats further. I wouldn't be against giving a +2 floating bonus to any physical stat at level 10 or so, though.
    Between the syn becoming notably un-SAD, and the fact that melee combat is made of numbers bloat in PF, I think they should get the bonus. If they want to pump Str, they can, but that means being much less of a summoner and more of a barbarian.

    It seems like this could have unforeseen consequences, and seems much less like a simple fix. *cough*
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TiaC's Avatar

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    Default Re: A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    About the Constitution-increasing form, it's not a bad idea. It's kind of outside the scope of a "simple fix", though, and I must confess I can't think of a form that isn't covered by what we already have (damn you, tortoises, why'd you have to go and have four legs? ).
    Ooze form?
    I don't know what you'd do with the 5 points of base evolutions though.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Between the syn becoming notably un-SAD, and the fact that melee combat is made of numbers bloat in PF, I think they should get the bonus. If they want to pump Str, they can, but that means being much less of a summoner and more of a barbarian.

    It seems like this could have unforeseen consequences, and seems much less like a simple fix. *cough*
    Well, to be fair, they could always get the Ability Increase evolution to cover for that.

    ... Maybe I should make it clear that evolutions that adjust the Eidolon's base stats (Ability Increase and Large, for example) also affect the Synthesist? It says right there that "The synthesist also gains access to the eidolonís special abilities and the eidolonís evolutions.", is that clear enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisacat View Post
    Ooze form?
    I don't know what you'd do with the 5 points of base evolutions though.
    Hmmm, that's a possibility. I'll try coming up with something. I'll post it in another thread, though, as this is supposed to be a simple fix, and only a simple fix.
    Last edited by Larkas; 2013-10-11 at 04:52 PM.
    Metal Perfection - a template for creatures born on Mirrodin.
    True Ferocity - a simple fix for Orcs and Half-Orcs.
    Monastic Magus - a spiritual successor to the Unarmed Swordsage.
    Pathfinder-ish Synthesist - a simple fix making Synthesist Summoners follow polymorph rules.
    Sword & Sorcery for Sneaky Scoundrels - rogue archetypes/fixes that aim to turn the rogue into a warrior/caster.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

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    Default Re: A more Pathfinder-ish Synthesist Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    Well, to be fair, they could always get the Ability Increase evolution to cover for that.
    ... Maybe I should make it clear that evolutions that adjust the Eidolon's base stats (Ability Increase and Large, for example) also affect the Synthesist? It says right there that "The synthesist also gains access to the eidolonís special abilities and the eidolonís evolutions.", is that clear enough?
    I would have just made it so they literally get the eidolon's scores with the -12.

    I think you make it clear the ability scores are included. Perhaps you should write this ability as "The Summoner gains the benefit of the eidolon's evolutions?"

    The eidolon gets 8 str from summoner levels. Perhaps the synthesist should be full bab? This would make it so their to hit is about as good, but they don't deal as much damage. This would also help their CMB/CMD.
    Hmmm, that's a possibility. I'll try coming up with something. I'll post it in another thread, though, as this is supposed to be a simple fix, and only a simple fix.
    Ability score increase: con? No limbs. Somehow get the slam attack without the eidolon having limbs.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2013-10-11 at 05:02 PM.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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