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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    This is me trying to figure out a way to discuss Paladins without talking about good and evil, right and wrong and other alignment stuff.

    I just want to know how do you guys like to build your Paladins, which are the best feats, skills and Prestige classes.

    I will start giving an example:

    My Last Paladin was something like this:

    Human Fighter 2 that will become a Paladin and a Kensai

    Strg: 16
    Dex: 10
    Cons: 11
    Int: 13
    Wis: 12
    Cha: 16

    Feats: Monkey Grip, Weapon Focus: Scythe, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
    Future Feats: Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Critical, Knockdown (describe at Sword and Fist), Leadership, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave

    Well this was a sort of a Full combat Paladin. Yes he uses a Scythe but he is definetly not Evil (I am planing to turn him into a Exalted Character), it is just for the Style. I wanted Him to look like a Combat Version of the Grim Reaper: Black Full Plate with Spikes, Tower Shield and Scythe.

    Well, tell me what you guys think,

    See Ya.

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    That Character is illegal. Monkey Grip does not let you use a Scythe in one hand. Don't worry, so many people make that mistake. The phrase "you have been playing it wrong", is synonymous with Monkey Grip.

    My Paladins tend to start out in that Base Class; starting as a Fighter is a viable option, but I generally prefer to play a Paladin from the get go, depending on party composition, campaign and roleplaying considerations. They almost always go Weapon and Shield to begin with, possibly using Two Weapon Fighting if they have enough Dexterity and a Feat to squander. Later on they may use the Bastard Sword as a Two Handed Weapon, but if they have been going since Level 1, a Long Sword is slightly more likely (i.e. if they used a Feat on Weapon Focus). Other Weapons are possible (such as Axes and Morning Stars), but I mostly like Swords for my Paladins

    I also tend only to play Paladins if I have managed some pretty good starting Attribute Scores and they are usually Human (as more Skill Points and Feats seem very desirable to me with this sort of Character).

    My minimum starting Attribute Spread is:

    Strength (+2)
    Dexterity (+1)
    Constitution (+0)
    Intelligence (+1)
    Wisdom (+1)
    Charisma (+2)

    My ideal (whilst remaining reasonable) starting Attribute Spread is:

    Strength (+2)
    Dexterity (+2)
    Constitution (+2)
    Intelligence (+1)
    Wisdom (+1)
    Charisma (+2)

    with Charisma getting the bump up and looking for Leadership at later levels.

    Skills:
    Ride, Heal, and Diplomacy tend to be maxed out, sometimes Animal Handling. Knwledge Skills get a smattering of points.

    Feats:
    Weapon Focus, Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Leadership,

    Equipment:
    So my Level 1 Paladin tends to go with Long Sword, Dagger, Light Mace and Heavy Shield. A Long Spear and Spiked Gauntlets often come in handy.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-01-01 at 09:43 PM.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Even if the Monkey Grip feat allowed the scythe to be weilded in one hand i would as a DM house rule that this wasn't the case. The simplest reason being that the nature of a scythe makes it to unweildy for a single handed use. I might liken it to trying to use an ice-hockey stick with one hand, you need the force and balance of two hands a reasonable distance apart in both cases.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Well, I don't consider myself a great optimizer but lets face it, there's not a lot you can do with paladins. Two skill points per level, usually with Int as a dump stat and one feat every three levels - there's not a great deal to work with.

    However, the one paladin character I do play is kind of a specialist 'turtle' paladin. At sixth level he has combat expertise (yeah, Int wasn't quite my dump stat - Dex was) and Imp combat expertise. He's scraped up enough to buy +1 full plate, uses a heavy shield and will often cast prot. from evil on himself. The idea is then to go into combat and fight defensively with full combat expertise. He's managed to get his AC up to 32 - which means he's very hard to hit but also doesn't do much damage.

    Basically he assists the party by holding enemies until they can deal with them.

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Lemme explain myself here: My DM allowed me to use it tatt way, otherwise I'd be using a big sized longsword instead.

    No, I wouldnt need 2 hands to use a Scythe properly, It could be treated as the Bastard sword, the description says "to heavy and unbalanced to use with one hand without the proper feat" Same thing to a Scythe: I belive that the -2 modifier show how hard is to use a scythe with onde hand, 'cause it is a little bigger than a Bastard Sword; btw, the use would be quite similar to the use of a Mylitary Pike, very brutal, indeed. Besides that, the DM only agreed because I have 16 in my Strg score, he belives that it is enougth to support the feat. If I had less than +2 score I wouldn't be able to use it (I wouldn't have enougth strength to cary it with a single arm).
    Last edited by Fawsto; 2007-01-01 at 09:21 PM.

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    If your DM is House Ruling this, that's fine, but Monkey Grip does not allow a Character to use a Two Handed Weapon as a One Handed Weapon by the RAW. As you know, Bastard Swords and Dwarven War Axes are Two Handed Weapons that have a Special Exotic Weapon Proficiency associated with them. You can't use Great Swords or Great Axes in one hand by the RAW, which are the weapons you should compare the Scythe to.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-01-01 at 09:50 PM.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Me and My DM agreed that If you have enough strength and the proper feat you can use any "one size superior to yours" weapons with one Hand. But look at this, essentialy a Big Lonsword IS a Greatsword (the damge and everything else is the same). Making it possible to apply the feat to use teh greatsword as a one handed wepon.

    Well, to make a long history short, I know the rules, although I believe in what I said, and the DM allowed it for the stile. End of the History.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now answer this question, pls: Can a Kensai get a +5 Vorpal Longsword and transform it into a a +6 Vorpal Longsword? My version of the Complete warrior says nothing about it. And I think that, although it is considered magic, the bonus that the Kensai apply to his weapon is not magic indeed.

    What you think about it? Should the bonus stack or not? (ps: I dont have the English version of the Complete Warrior)

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Yes, that is the definition of a House Rule, which is fine, but it will confuse people if not stated from the outset.

    The mechanics of D&D don't really translate into Real Life.

    Don't know much about the Kensai Class, I'm afraid. If it is an Enhancement Bonus, the answer is no.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Yes, this is quite the problem.. My book doesnt say a word if it is a Enhancement bonus or not...
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Interesting. I thought that Monkey grip could be used even with two handed weapons. I was also thinking to make a full combat paladin and I liked the ideas.

    The paladin's special mount can also attack right? There is any better mount for combat purposes?

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    The Kensai class is only able to boost a weapon up to +10 equivalent. So no, that +5 Vorpal Longsword is staying that way until you're a level 11 Kensai (although I don't think there's an official epic progression for them).

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Gah, Arrgh.
    *DM Convulses* I concede the point if your DM house ruled it then fine.
    However, for those people playing at home.

    A longsword for example is weighted so that the balance of the weapon swings from the hilt and from the last third of the blade making it easily used with a single hand.

    Regardless of your strength a Scythe has a curved haft and if you note two handles because the entire weight of the weapon is in the solid inch thick metal blade, the weapon _cannot_ be used single handedly with any degree of success.

    I say this as a classically trained european swordsman who has in his very real and very physically sound life handled both a greatsword (the size and weight approx of a large longsword) and a scythe.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Did I read your topic post right that you're planning on going:

    Fighter -> Paladin -> Kensai

    If so, what is your character's story for abandoning the path of the Paladin? I'm just curious, from a roleplaying perspective.

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Kensai is one of those classes that stipulates that paladins (and monks and similar classes) who multiclass in can still take levels in paladin. So it's not abandoning it, just taking a bit of a different path.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    The feat 'Divine Might' lets you burn turn-undeads for +Cha bonus damage to all attacks for a round.

    and if a Kensai imbues an already enchanted weapon he can go above +10 pre-epic.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sieg View Post
    Interesting. I thought that Monkey grip could be used even with two handed weapons. I was also thinking to make a full combat paladin and I liked the ideas.

    The paladin's special mount can also attack right? There is any better mount for combat purposes?
    Wizard gish's polymorphed familiar? Other than that, paladin's mount is the only mount surviving at high levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Kimboat View Post
    Well, I don't consider myself a great optimizer but lets face it, there's not a lot you can do with paladins. Two skill points per level, usually with Int as a dump stat and one feat every three levels - there's not a great deal to work with.

    However, the one paladin character I do play is kind of a specialist 'turtle' paladin. At sixth level he has combat expertise (yeah, Int wasn't quite my dump stat - Dex was) and Imp combat expertise. He's scraped up enough to buy +1 full plate, uses a heavy shield and will often cast prot. from evil on himself. The idea is then to go into combat and fight defensively with full combat expertise. He's managed to get his AC up to 32 - which means he's very hard to hit but also doesn't do much damage.

    Basically he assists the party by holding enemies until they can deal with them.
    32? +1 Full plate for 19, imp. combat expertise for 25, fighting defensively for 27, heavy shield 29 and ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duraska View Post
    Did I read your topic post right that you're planning on going:

    Fighter -> Paladin -> Kensai

    If so, what is your character's story for abandoning the path of the Paladin? I'm just curious, from a roleplaying perspective.
    Class is not character concept. He can very well be a paladin even if chooses to represent his fightning style with another class.






    Anyways, unless it is dungeon based campaign, I would go with traditional charger paladin. If I have read the feats correctly, mounted combat, ride by attack and spirited charge means that charging with a lance and smiting, 5th level paladin with +3 str gets damage of 3d8 +24 if he has shield, more if not. (1d8 +3 +5 and it is tripled on a charge with lance and spirited charge)

    8th level paladin with 18 str and +1 lance and using two hands gets 3d8 +45...

    Add power attack and...
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seffbasilisk View Post
    and if a Kensai imbues an already enchanted weapon he can go above +10 pre-epic.
    It doesn't stack, the kensai ability spells out exactly what happens when you imbue an already magical weapon. You pay the difference between what it is and what you want it to be, and that's it. You can't add another enhancement bonus onto a +5 weapon, although if you're 6th or above you can add special abilities.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    It does stack. I worked it out a while ago.

    If you're so set that it doesn't stack, can you give me quotes proving me wrong?
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sieg View Post
    Interesting. I thought that Monkey grip could be used even with two handed weapons. I was also thinking to make a full combat paladin and I liked the ideas.

    The paladin's special mount can also attack right? There is any better mount for combat purposes?
    It does. You can wield a large two-handed weapon in two hands at a -2 penalty, exactly as monkey grip states. It's just a really poor idea for a feat.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Heard of/refined for my own purposes an interesting Paladin Sword-and-Board/TWF build. Wield a one-handed weapon and a spiked heavy shield, take the feats Improved Shield Bash, Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2; allows an offhand shield bash at -2 to all attacks, like TWFing with a light weapon; no Dex requisite), Divine Might and Divine Shield. (Also requires Power Attack and Shield Specialization as prereqs.) For this number of feats, you may want to start with two Fighter levels.

    Use the standard tricks to increase your turn attempts per day, and boost your Charisma through the roof. Before major combats, use Divine Shield, and every turn you get a full attack, use Divine Might. Charisma to AC and the Damage of every attack. Quite neat, especially since you can get an arbitrarily large number of turn attempts per day using Nightsticks. Not quite Divine Metacheese, but still fun.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    I usually use my paladins as "meat shields" too.
    Divine feats are best for paladins. Max your Charisma and Strength, and just got enough Wisdom to cast higher level spells.
    Hmm... a grim-reaper styled paladin? Interesting concept. If he hunts undead, he could be from some church that is against the creation of undeads, because they "break the cycle or life", and adopt the image of Death as their symbol.
    For multiclass, I suggest WarPriest. Besides the name, it's a good Paladin PrC. You get some high level spells at the cost of not rising your paladin's powers (smite, healing touch. etc)

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Grim reaper style paladin would be quite bad against undead as the x4 critical of scythe doesn't help against undead and it won't pass a lot of undead damage reductions. :(

    The x4 critical against evil, non-undead is quite scary, though.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    If you want to wield a scythe one handed get a Kama/sickle or a pick. Scythes are two-handed tools (not really weapons) so the idea of using one single handed is dumb, the extra length of the shaft (technically a snath according to a diagram I found) just gets in the way. The idea of using a scythe in combat is pretty stupid as well. The blade is nasty and the handles make it a giant leaver but its too un-wieldy to use for anything but coup de grace.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    I wait until paladin level 8th and get a griffon for the special mount. They kick ass when properly rebuilt and assigned the feats from the bonus HD.

    Aside from that, I usually play sword and board because frankly it's quite good enough; power attacking all over the place on top of smite is just crazy damage. Your damage output is usually good enough to just do power attack tradeoffs 1:1 with a one-handed weapon, die less because of the shield, and do just fine.

    Extra Smiting is an excellent feat, as is Divine Might. If you do a lot of fighting outdoors, go for the Mounted Combat tree. Spirited Charge is great.

    For spells, I'm a big fan of rhino's rush for doubling charge damage and zeal for getting to the back ranks to smash pesky casters. Depending on what you're fighting, undead bane weapon can be an excellent choice as well for the obvious reasons. Also, holy storm works for all your area attack needs, working particularly well for covering escapes, though it has a relatively expensive material component (a flask of holy water). Though of course you should never discount the utility of the old standby of bless weapon. Automatically confirming criticals is nice, particularly with a longsword or other extended crit range weapon.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Extra smiting is one normally saved to see how your campaign is going. ie. if you end up fighting lots of animals and neutral fey then you won't really get anything out of it until you start fighting lots of evil guys.

    Divine Might is a must for a paladin, or Divine Shield if you're going for a defensive sort. If you get your Charisma into the 20s the bonus can get quite silly.

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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seffbasilisk View Post
    It does stack. I worked it out a while ago.

    If you're so set that it doesn't stack, can you give me quotes proving me wrong?
    From my copy of the Complete warrior, page 50:

    **The XP cost presented here assumes that the weapon being imbued does not already have an enhancement bonus. If it does, the cost to imbue it with additional power is reduced. For instance, if a kensai has a +1 longsword and wants to imbue it with the power to be a +3 longsword, he may do so by paying the difference in XP cost between creating a +1 weapon and a +3 weapon (360 minus 40, or 320 XP).
    So, you can't add to a weapon until you have the ability to pay more xp and add to the total plus.

    And as far as the enhancement bonus, they never stack. If you have a masterwork sword (+1 enhancement bonus to attack) it doesn't give you a total of +2 to hit if you make it into a +1 weapon. Or if you have a +2 sword and someone casts magic weapon on it, it's still only a plus 2. If you can cite any example where it works differently, do tell.
    Last edited by Zincorium; 2007-01-02 at 03:19 PM. Reason: providing additional example
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    If you want to wield a scythe one handed get a Kama/sickle or a pick. Scythes are two-handed tools (not really weapons) so the idea of using one single handed is dumb, the extra length of the shaft (technically a snath according to a diagram I found) just gets in the way. The idea of using a scythe in combat is pretty stupid as well. The blade is nasty and the handles make it a giant leaver but its too un-wieldy to use for anything but coup de grace.
    The scythe actually was once used as a weapon of war in Poland. However, the blade was turned so that it was straight on the shaft, not perpendicular. The war scythe, or kosa bojowa, was effectively a makeshift halberd.
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    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    I am given to understand that such was a fairly common modification; the Fauchard or something like that is basically that sort of weapon, I think.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    St. Louis (used to be Utah)

    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    I always find the warhorse to be a pain when I have played paladin I like to use the magic weapon variant that came out in a recent dragon magazine. I used a dire pick which did 1d8 and x4 on a crit. and with the exotic weapon proficiency it is one handed. Divine feats are awesome for paladins I really like divine vigor more hit points and +10 movement is great.
    Some people are like Slinkies. Not really good for
    anything, but you still can't help but smile when
    you see one tumble down the stairs.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

    Maggots in the Meat: IC thread, OOC thread, dierolls

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