How to not be evil: Alchemist edition

[Crasical]

So while this is specifically about the Pathfinder Alchemist, and even more specifically the Vivisectionist Alchemist, it's more of a general roleplaying question so I'm putting it here.

Vivisectionist Alchemists are basically Dr. Moreau. Instead of being mad bomber/chemists, they get biologist/anatomist abilities instead. The ones that concern me are the 'Torturous Transformations', which basically boil down to:

1. Turn an animal into a manimal
2. Turn an animal into an intelligent animal
3. Turn a person into an (intelligent) animal

I'd rather not just ignore these abilities, but I'm having a hard time spinning them in a way that doesn't suggest a creepy, evil, 'For Science!' motivated alchemist. For now, I'm shooting for 'not evil', but 'not creepy' would be nice too. Any suggestions?

[Rhynn]

Vivisection is the cutting, dissection, or surgery of living things: torture, essentially. You may get away with doing it to animals, but as soon as you do it to intelligent things, D&D morality says you're Evil, pretty much.

Refluff yourself as a "transformationist," using elixirs to create the changes without torture. It's still a bit morally ambiguous, but answers to questions like "is it your right to create intelligent life?" are a bit beyond D&D's alignment system, so you should be fine. Probably puts you solidly in Neutral.

[Scow2]

Why are they considered "Torturous" transformations?

My suggestion would be to use anesthetic.

[JoshuaZ]

All of these could happen completely with consenting individuals.

[RochtheCrusher]

Turning an animal into an intelligent one is basically just like the Druid spell "Awaken," yes? Nothing intrinsically evil about that.

Giving animals opposable thumbs they weren't born with gets... difficult to justify. Perhaps if you go with more of a "animal in humanoid power armor" theme?

A lot of the effort required to make turning humans into animals not horribly Evil is going to involve your source of humans. Transplanting the brain of a dead child (who can't pay the level to be revived) into, say, a wolf cub's body to give him a chance at life isn't Evil... assuming a human corpse wouldn't work. Changing willing folks isn't evil either, and I suppose you could come up with a legal system in which turning felons into animals is... merely very weird. Perhaps you work for Captain Planet, and only change oil tycoons, or something.

In the end, it's a lot like killing. To do this and be good, you need a very good reason, which applies to this case and not some nebulous "greater good."

So you won't be doing it much. :-P

[Crasical]

All of these could happen completely with consenting individuals.

Refluff yourself as a "transformationist," using elixirs to create the changes without torture. It's still a bit morally ambiguous, but answers to questions like "is it your right to create intelligent life?" are a bit beyond D&D's alignment system, so you should be fine. Probably puts you solidly in Neutral.

These are good starts. Removing the surgical element alone makes me start thinking about spinning this as a sort of Lycanthropy Researcher who's studying their changes from humanoid to animal to animal hybrid.... but it doesn't have a solid 'Why' for it yet. Yes, you -can- transform a man into a dog and then that into a dogman, but why would you?

[Scow2]

These are good starts. Removing the surgical element alone makes me start thinking about spinning this as a sort of Lycanthropy Researcher who's studying their changes from humanoid to animal to animal hybrid.... but it doesn't have a solid 'Why' for it yet. Yes, you -can- transform a man into a dog and then that into a dogman, but why would you?

Because animal-people are awesomer than normal people and normal animals. He's a transhuman. Why should the gift of intelligence and free will be denied to animals? Give them the glory of tool-use! With animals, there are few moral quandries as long as the process doesn't inflict pain - they don't really care what happens to them, even if druids and other "Appeal To Nature" preachers get pissy. And for willing people? Why deny them the opportunity to shed clumsy, weak human bodies when you can give them superior animalistic forms?

Maybe getting unintelligent animals to think like people is the first step to colonizing-by-proxy a person-free world populated only by unintelligent natives!

[Grim Portent]

but why would you?

FOR SCIENCE!!!

Now that I've got that out of my system I feel compelled to ask why you want to try and flavour something like this as good? It seems that it might be better to look for a class that can do similar stuff more ethically.

Failing that the best way to make this less shady is to only practice on sentient subjects that can and have given their consent. Maybe people on the brink of death or the elderly, perhaps those rendered comatose somehow. Animals can't consent so they should be avoided as test subjects. Maybe try to sort out a deal with law enforcement that lets you test on volunteers from among condemned criminals who get a reduced sentence in exchange for being your guinea pig.

[Crasical]

FOR SCIENCE!!!

But that's specifically what I'm trying to avoid!

Now that I've got that out of my system I feel compelled to ask why you want to try and flavour something like this as good? It seems that it might be better to look for a class that can do similar stuff more ethically.

To be brutally honest? Vivisectionist Alchemists get sneak attack while also having pseudo-spellcasting to enhance their versatility. I'm taking the class mostly for mechanical reasons.

[Grim Portent]

Is evil completely off the table or is it only the 'FOR SCIENCE' mentality you want to avoid?

[Scow2]

Uplifting animals gives you willing and devoted (Usually) servants eager to serve whatever plan their master has for them, for giving them the chance to experience life in a manner they'd otherwise be ignorant of: You'd be a god to them. Don't abuse that power, but you get more leeway through that than standard recruitment policies.

[Crasical]

Is evil completely off the table or is it only the 'FOR SCIENCE' mentality you want to avoid?

I'd reeeeaaally like to avoid Evil but if you've got a compelling evil motivation I would like to hear it.

[Scow2]

I say to focus on understanding and transcending human limitations. A shame mechanically the class is pretty much restricted to non-permanent changes from one known to another, instead of the logical extension of adding and enhancing natural abilities.

It's not animal abuse if the animals don't suffer. Being non-creepy is harder than non-evil, though.

[Deffers]

I can think of a good origin!

There's this rich kid, alright? Sure, he's a noble's child, but he's no worse than Neutral. Anyways, he had this dog since birth, alright? Father's hunting dog-- was getting along in years, but took to the kid when he was born like... like a thing that takes well to another thing. Now the kid's, like, six or seven, and the dog's old as hell. One of daddy's hunting dogs die, and he's suddenly acutely aware of his best friend's mortality, because kids are like that. So now he's freaking out.

But you, a bright-eyed and perhaps literally bushy-tailed alchemist with interesting theories, come up with a solution. The kid's inconsolable and the father is like "whatever" at this point, just wants to see his son happy. So you transform the dog into a dog-person, granting it human-level intelligence. Suddenly, the kid's old dog became a sort of Jeeves-esque figure who had a significantly extended lifetime, giving this kid decades more time with his beloved caretaker.

Being the sort of mind that is attracted to alchemy, but also a nice guy who enjoys money in his coin purse, you decide to try and refine and perfect your technique so that you can bring that same joy to a wider market. That's why you're adventuring-- to perfect your skills as a Radical Veterinary Technician. You said you didn't want a mad scientist, but you said nothing about someone who's perfectly rational as a scientist and a mad businessman instead!

[Grim Portent]

I'd reeeeaaally like to avoid Evil but if you've got a compelling evil motivation I would like to hear it.

Creepy rather than compelling tbh but I'm sure I could come up with a more justified evil one before long.

Current idea: (WARNING: Somewhat creepy. Really evil.)

Spoiler

Show

Ever since you were a child you've always liked to play with toys. It started with teddy bears and wooden soldiers. You talked to them, hugged them, took the very best care of them, and you also took them apart to see what kind of combinations you could make from them. A teddy with a soldiers arm stitched on. A stolen girls doll with a bears face. The possibilities to make more toys were endless.

But as you grew up it became time to leave childish toys behind, and so you did. You were skilled at stitching, you knew your way around needles and thread, and so you were an obvious choice for the local doctor's apprentice. You watched eagerly as he taught you to tend to the injuries of animals and people alike and new possibilities entered your brain. Flesh was soft and pliant like the cloth of a teddy bear after all, and are they really so different? What about animals... they can't complain after all. Can they?

So you began to experiment... to practice. You set up a workshop. A little toy factory of your very own, and there you made playthings. Not childish little trifles likes teddies and wooden soldiers, but things shaped from the fresh clay of living flesh. Dogs and cats and rats and bats and birds, all were just a fresh canvas to create new treasures from. New toys to play with and discard as you saw fit.

Eventually you tired of your latest playthings... grew weary of their attempts to escape from your games. You had tried to make them loyal, obedient. But they just wouldn't understand. Then the idea struck you. Why not force them to understand. You worked and worked to make your idea a reality. Tried and tried, tested and tested, had to scrap failure after failure and dig so many unmarked graves for broken toys.

But it worked. They spoke, they learned, they became loyal, they did as instructed. Your toys lived like never before. But the challenge of making them as they were was growing easy, simple. A task that seemed as if a child could do it. And then one day a wandering tinker came to town... No one would miss him... It seemed so obvious what to do... A tinker-toy seemed like such a good idea...

EDIT: I may use what I have written as a villain in a campaign at some point.
EDIT2: The speed with which I wrote this disturbs me slightly...

[Deffers]

Grim Portent, now I want to have a cage match between your guy and my guy. It's like Moriarty and Sherlock but with horrible mixes of human and animal instead of with deductive skills.

[Grim Portent]

Grim Portent, now I want to have a cage match between your guy and my guy. It's like Moriarty and Sherlock but with horrible mixes of human and animal instead of with deductive skills.

I'd read that book. If only because I've got the mental image of Watson as a humanoid Wombat.

[Scow2]

Grim Portent, now I want to have a cage match between your guy and my guy. It's like Moriarty and Sherlock but with horrible awesome and glorious mixes of human and animal instead of with deductive skills.

Fixed that for you.

[Arbane]

FOR SCIENCE!!!

Now that I've got that out of my system I feel compelled to ask why you want to try and flavour something like this as good? It seems that it might be better to look for a class that can do similar stuff more ethically.

"Science doesn't ask why, it asks WHY NOT?"- Cave Johnson

[Lord Raziere]

"Why turn one thing into another? ha! you might as well ask why we seek to turn lead into gold, even though all it really does is be shiny and conduct electricity! Or figure out how to make lava lamps. We do what we must, because we can!

I mean, why should science be all about the practical boring things?"

[mucat]

I'd rather not just ignore these abilities, but I'm having a hard time spinning them in a way that doesn't suggest a creepy, evil, 'For Science!' motivated alchemist. For now, I'm shooting for 'not evil', but 'not creepy' would be nice too. Any suggestions?

We might be coming at this from different perspectives, since to me, "For Science!" is not in itself a creepy or evil attitude...but you can give this guy a neutral or good motivation for his research. Creating intelligent beings that can survive some potential cataclysm that humans could not, or learning more about brain function by studying it in radically different contexts, or simply extending the gift of sapience to more creatures.

As others have suggested, take the "torturous" out of "torturous transformation." Have him use proper anaesthesia, make serious efforts to minimize the suffering of his test subjects, and when he DOES manage to give them intelligence, treat them as fellow sapient beings, not as property.

Many of his peers might still find his work abhorrent or unnatural, but they could still think of him as "a decent person doing a terrible thing."

I am currently playing an alchemist who presents a similar "How to not be evil" challenge for a different reason. He's that classic archetype, the grief-maddened scientist obsessed with bringing a dead loved one back to life. His situation really IS creepy and unsettling -- his wife's disembodied brain is on alchemical life support in his lab -- but I've been doing my best to portray them both in a way that merits the reaction "What a horrible situation!" rather than "What a horrible person!"

[Berenger]

I bet some rogues or spies would give their right hands to be transformed into an animal. Or their right paw, wing, set of organic scythes, you get the picture. Provided you can change them back after the great scam / espionage mission.

[Rhynn]

"Why turn one thing into another? ha! you might as well ask why we seek to turn lead into gold, even though all it really does is be shiny and conduct electricity! Or figure out how to make lava lamps. We do what we must, because we can!

I mean, why should science be all about the practical boring things?"

Actually, and this can be made relevant to the character, the transformations of external substances (from state to state, or theoretically lead to gold) in alchemy are supposed to reflect or bring about internal changes (metaphysical, spiritual) in the alchemist. Alchemy has a strong spiritual element.

[Lord Raziere]

Actually, and this can be made relevant to the character, the transformations of external substances (from state to state, or theoretically lead to gold) in alchemy are supposed to reflect or bring about internal changes (metaphysical, spiritual) in the alchemist. Alchemy has a strong spiritual element.

"AND!? Can't I get spiritual enlightenment from becoming more catlike!? man to cat to catman is just like alchemy. but with animals. so just let me seek my spiritual enlightenment through animalistic transformation please. I mean druids do it too right? I just do it with potions..."

[Rhynn]

Well, that was my point. It's not about turning lead into gold, it's about transformations. Man to animal or animal to man is a transformation.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes but you still cannot explain why anyone made the lava lamp

[Scow2]

Yes but you still cannot explain why anyone made the lava lamp

Dude... they're a product of The Sixties (And Seventies), and a broke-ass Drug-addled Pornographer (Yes, really!) needed some money fast. He saw an egg timer that used wax in a bottle on a heater (When the wax melted enough to rise, the egg was done), thought it looked Groovy, and decided to make it one rocket-shaped, colored the wax, and used a lightbulb to heat it. And, this being during the 60s and 70s, everyone else thought they were psychedelic and groovy too, and wanted to buy them for themselves, turning the dude rich.

That's the abridged version, at least.

[Crasical]

Dude... they're a product of The Sixties (And Seventies), and a broke-ass Drug-addled Pornographer (Yes, really!) needed some money fast. He saw an egg timer that used wax in a bottle on a heater (When the wax melted enough to rise, the egg was done), thought it looked Groovy, and decided to make it one rocket-shaped, colored the wax, and used a lightbulb to heat it. And, this being during the 60s and 70s, everyone else thought they were psychedelic and groovy too, and wanted to buy them for themselves, turning the dude rich.

And just like that, the topic of the thread transmuted too...

[Weirdlet]

Perhaps your character feels it's the only way s/he'll ever have children, or lives isolated and away from others and it's been sort of the end-result of said isolation- not evil, just not necessarily regarded as healthy by others. The knowledge of how to make someone human into an animal is just a by-product of knowing how to raise up animals into your students, equals and heirs.

[Kane0]

I'm sure the elderly, crippled and impaired would all be very interested in getting some new bodies, even if there is a tail included.