What is wrong with the Half-Elf?

[Lord Iames Osari]

Now, I know that it is the widely-shared opinion on these boards that the half-elf as presented in the PHB is underpowered. It is not the intent of this thread to say that they are not underpowered.

This thread is an inquiry into what specific aspects of the half-elf are held to be underpowered, and why, so that I can have these points in mind when I alter them for my homebrew world.

[Bears With Lasers]

Look at it this way.

What do they get?

Compare that to what dwarves, or elves, or humans get.

[Lord Iames Osari]

So the problem is one of quantity rather (or more) than it is of quality?

[Matthew]

They should get half the advantages of Elves and half the advantages of Humans, but they don't. All they get from their Human side is the freedom to Multi Class, which isn't much.

[pestilenceawaits]

So the problem is one of quantity rather (or more) than it is of quality?

That is a pretty good way to put it. I like to give them the human skill bonuses +4 at 1st and +1 a level and they seem to be a little more playable.

[Zincorium]

1. No stat modifications. Yeah, you have both a plus and a minus with most, but they are a big step if you have rolled stats and can't do much with where points are.

2. No combat capable special abilities. Weapon proficiencies and selective bonuses to attack and defense don't seem like much, but they never hurt.

3. They just plain aren't as good as either humans or elves at anything besides diplomacy.

4. Why exactly is a rare pairing of different races a standard race anyway? You'd think half elves would be less common as adventurers than goblins or kobolds, if only due to their rarity.

[AmoDman]

They should get half the advantages of Elves and half the advantages of Humans, but they don't. All they get from their Human side is the freedom to Multi Class, which isn't much.

On the topic of Half-Low Light Vision, it's kind of like I can vaguely see in the dark, but I can't.

Concering half a feat, at first level, it's sort of like I receive a feat, but I don't really. For example, if I take Dodge, I get a +1/2 AC bonus when Dodging, but since you tend to round things down in D&D, it comes out to nothing, so you should definitely choose better than dodge.

Wherein lie the statistic bonuses, I'm the only race to get a +1 and -1, and +1 to certain skill checks and saving throws as well.

Of what weapons the half-elf is automatically proficient, I can choose to be proficient with two of the following weapons - longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow.

[Thomas]

They're elves with about half the elves' racial abilities. This means they suck.

amodman: if you take Dodge, you've already gotten "half a feat," no houseruling necessary... that thing's about as useful as Combat Casting.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Okay, I think I know what I'm going to do with them, then. Thank you all.

One more thing: Would you call a human's bonus feat and skill points cultural or mental traits?

[Jack Mann]

So the problem is one of quantity rather (or more) than it is of quality?

No. It's a matter of both quantity and quality. They don't have much, and what they have isn't much worth having. Except for that diplomacy bonus, they just don't have much that's a solid advantage.

[Thomas]

No. It's a matter of both quantity and quality. They don't have much, and what they have isn't much worth having. Except for that diplomacy bonus, they just don't have much that's a solid advantage.

I really don't see how the Diplomacy bonus is an advantage at all. A human could spend that bonus feat on Skill Focus (Diplomacy), get a better bonus, and still have those extra skill points...

[Chris_Chandler]

The half-elf is... okay, but they don't get anything particularly individualized about them, but are rather a kludge between the two races, with the social angle thrown in. Humans have a huge advantage with a free feat and bonus skill points, and elves have a ton of special abilities, but, more importantly, a stat bonus.

Stat bonuses are, inherently, a better deal than stat penalites (though not so much that the 1/2 orc is warranted - another topic). Races without stat bonuses at all (Humans, Illurians, Elan, a few others) have good stuff to offset the descrepancy, but 1/2 elves just seem like watered-down elves, without gaining anything (the non-favored class is laughable) from human parentage. Mechanically, there is no reason to play a 1/2 elf unless a specific build requires that you spread your levels around at an odd amount, but you need some sort of elvish heritage.

Mind you, flavor-wise, I like the concept, and have no issue with playing 1/2 elves when mechanics are not the focus.

[AmoDman]

Okay, I think I know what I'm going to do with them, then. Thank you all.

One more thing: Would you call a human's bonus feat and skill points cultural or mental traits?

I suppose it depends on your world. In a "Standard" world, humans are the most diverse of all the races, illustrating that they perhaps adapt and learn quicker as a species to new ways of life when compared to the longer lived races, but this is not to say that High Elves do not have different factions and cultures in your own world...

[krossbow]

I know that it horribly infringes on the "No 1's 3's or any other odd number!" rule, but changing half elfs to get a +1 to charisma and a simple +1 skills per level plus low-light vision would make them fairly useful.


sure, it'd be a free stat, but doesn't WotC think that charisma is the least important stat anyways (from the dungeon masters guide)?

[tarbrush]

(the non-favored class is laughable)

I take issue with that. It means your favoured class can be a non PHB class. Which is damn handy. But humans get it too, and have that juicy free feat.

But in general, I agree, half elves are just not as good as anything else.

[Jack Mann]

I really don't see how the Diplomacy bonus is an advantage at all. A human could spend that bonus feat on Skill Focus (Diplomacy), get a better bonus, and still have those extra skill points...

Eh, if you're going for diplomancy, you can take skill focus (diplomacy) and the +2, and end up breaking the game a bit sooner. Of course, then the DM either houserules different diplomacy rules, or else he starts sending in only creatures without a language you know.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Well, what if the PC is a half-elf bard that used his first level to learn every language in existence?

[Pegasos989]

Well, what if the PC is a half-elf bard that used his first level to learn every language in existence?

He would be better off as a human, as they get more skillpoints for that. ;) (And at higher levels with scrolls of tongues accessible, he might feel really bad he spent those points on the less common languages)

[tbarrie]

1. No stat modifications. Yeah, you have both a plus and a minus with most, but they are a big step if you have rolled stats and can't do much with where points are.

It's a big help if you're using point-buy too. Switching a 16 to an 18 and a 12 to a 10 puts you way ahead on points.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I actually have a human bard that did that. He looked at it and said "Is there any cap for learning languages per level?" "No, I don't think there is." "Oh. Then I know every language."

He likes to use his spells to aid the party rogue in scamming people. His ability to speak every language has been bizarrely useful.

[Jayabalard]

Not that they need to have it to be "fixed", but I been looking at altering them a fair bit because I just didn't like the flavor.

Not immune to sleep; slight save bonus to magical sleep and enchantments spells/effects instead (+1).

heightened senses +1 to thier spot/listen/search checks

+1 dex, -1 con (yes, I know, it's an odd modifier)

low light vision.

Differentiate between half elves raised in human society and those raised in elven society.

Ones raised in Human society should gain more of thier human advantages:
>either gain a bonus feat at 1st level or gain human bonus skills as a human would; player choice.
>Favored class: any

ones raised in Elven society should gain more of thier elven heritage
>gain the same weapon proficiencies as elves.
>heightened senses: automatic search roll to find secret doors as if they were activly looking for it as elves do, though they are at -1 to the roll since thier senses are slightly less developed.
>has learned to trance as elves; can choose to do that rather than sleep.
>Favored class: same as elves (which isn't wizard in my campaign)

[Amphimir Míriel]

Okay, I think I know what I'm going to do with them, then. Thank you all.

Hey! don't leave us in the dark! let us know what are your proposed fixes for Half-elves (and half-orcs, for that matter )

[goken04]

>either gain a bonus feat at 1st level or gain human bonus skills as a human would; player choice.

This is how my gaming group always plays elves now. And we've actually HAD one or two since instituting the rule. Far from overpowers the race and makes it playable.

[Belteshazzar]

I thing that half-elf and half-orc should be relegated to being templates like the other half-whatevers, it just makes more sense. I would rather play a pure orc or elf rather than a half-human anyway.

[Deathcow]

I thing that half-elf and half-orc should be relegated to being templates like the other half-whatevers, it just makes more sense. I would rather play a pure orc or elf rather than a half-human anyway.

Except for crappy Light Sensitivity for orcs... blah.

[Pegasos989]

Except for crappy Light Sensitivity for orcs... blah.

Sunglasses, dear friend. Sunglasses.

[Jack_of_Spades]

I give them the human bonus skill points, the elven Listen and Spot bonuses, proficiency in one martial weapon that can be used with weapon finesse, +2 to gather info and survival.

The have the knack for learning that humans have and the heightened elven senses. They also have a natural gift with light weapons form thier elven heritage. Because they are usually outcasts they've learned how to gain information from strangers and to survive alone.

[Matthew]

I would drop the Diplomacy and Gather Information Bonuses for either the Human Bonus Feat at Level One or the additional Skill Point.

[TheOOB]

I've always ran with these versions of half-elf and half-orc. All features are in addition to normal race features unless otherwise noted

Half-Elf
Versitile: Half-Elves are good at adapting to any situation, even if they have little professional training in. Half-Elves only need to spend 1 skill point to gain a rank in a non-class skill(though they still are subject to the cross-class skill rank cap), and they act as if they had .5 ranks in any skills with which they have no ranks (thus allowed them to use skills that are normall only usable trained even if they are untrained.)

Half-Orc
+2 Strength, -2 Charisma: Half-Orcs are bigger and stronger then humans, but as they are considered outcasts in both human and orc society they tend to be reserved and socially inept. This replaces a standard Half-Orcs ability modifiers.
+2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate Checks, A Half-Orc is an imposing sight that can strike fear into even the most battle hardened of folk.

The Half-Elf versitile ability is acually a combination of two feats, neither of which should be allowed in a game if you are using this varient of half-elf(as it's important each race has something unique to them). The ability gives half-elves a reason for existing without really giving them many new bonuses.

While the DMG says that +2 Str -2 Cha is unbalanced, I don't think it makes Half-Orcs any more powerful then dwarves or gray elves(two of the most overpowered races). Besides, a penalty to Int penalizes every class to a degree, and makes many classes very difficult to play (fighter, wizard, rogue, bard, ect) while a penalty to cha just matters to some classes and helps support the social stigma which is central to the half-orc concept. The bonus to intimidate is mainly because I don't belive a half-orc should be any less intimidating then a human(due to the cha penalty).

[Lord Iames Osari]

Hey! don't leave us in the dark! let us know what are your proposed fixes for Half-elves (and half-orcs, for that matter )

Well, I figured that was more a matter for the Homebrew forum, but what they hey...

I'm going for minimal changes, here, so here goes:

Half-elves gain either a bonus feat at 1st, like humans, or proficiency with longsword, scimitar, and bows, like the elves of my world, depending on which culture they were brought up in. I also increased the Listen, Search, and Spot bonus to +2.

For half-orcs, i just said "no Charisma penalty", looked at what I had done, and called it good.