Am I reading this spell correctly (Greater Mighty Wallop for Monks)

[Ramza00]

Am I reading this correctly?

Greater Mighty Wallop located in Races of the Dragon, 3rd lvl Sorc/Wizard transmutation spell. It is a better version of the spell Mighty Wallop (1st lvl Sorc/Wizard Spell), gives you caster lvl /4 to a max of 5 size increases or your effective weapon size is collosal (which ever comes first), spell is touch and its effects are caster level/hour. Thus a wizard can easily cast it on his monk ally (or a ally with a war hammer or other bludgeoning weapon.)

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If I understand this correctly

Far from optimized build Just getting my point across

Lvl 12 Human Sorc 3/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 7
Spells known as a 8th lvl Sorc, Caster Lvl 12
BAB of 8.25

Feats
1 Combat Casting
1 (Human Bonus Feat) Precocious Apprentice
3 Ascetic Mage
6 Practiced Spellcaster
9 Improved Natural Attack
12 Superior Unarmed Strike (From TOB) Gives +4 Monk lvls to determining Unarmed Damage

Monk Bonus Feats
1 Stunning Fists
2 Combat Reflexes

Wealth by lvl at 12 is 88,000 he can easily afford a monk's belt 13,000

Monk's Unarmed Damage 2 (Monk)+ 7 (Enlightened Fist)+5 (Monk's Belt)+4 Superior Unarmed Strike= 18 lvls 2d8 for a Human
3 size increases for Greater Mighty Wallop
1 size increase for Improved Natural Weapon
Total Size Increases 4
8d8 base damage (According to the DMG Table for size increases page 28)

This is before adding things such as strength damage

Finish off the build by finishing Enlightened Fist, and then doing Abjurant Champion

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That is a pretty nice spell

[Bears With Lasers]

Yep. It's a powerful spell.

[AtomicKitKat]

Now, if you could just enchant your fists with Clouting(Complete Divine) via Kensai... That would really be a Mighty Wallop. :P

[Ramza00]

Just making sure, its in the too good to be true type catergory for a spell

[Bears With Lasers]

It's no Venomfire, but it is pretty good. :P

[Ramza00]

Don't have serpent kingdoms so I wouldn't know

[Skyserpent]

So what's the gist of Venomfire?

[Bears With Lasers]

Essentially, it adds a ridiculous amount of bonus damage ([CL]d6, maybe? Something like that) to every natural weapon that has poison. Wildshape into something with a poisonous natural attack, as a druid--or two, or three--and you're doing absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage, especially with caster level boosters.

[AtomicKitKat]

Essentially, it adds a ridiculous amount of bonus damage ([CL]d6, maybe? Something like that) to every natural weapon that has poison. Wildshape into something with a poisonous natural attack, as a druid--or two, or three--and you're doing absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage, especially with caster level boosters.

Or the Serpent Arms grafts, which don't mention needing to replace regular arms(ie, unlimited). More mundanely, you can use them with the Serpent Fangs graft.

[Person_Man]

You acknowledge the build isn't optimized, and that's a very good thing.

That build has a lousy BAB, hit points, and caster progression. At low levels it would suck royally. A superior build would be a strait Monk 11/Full BAB Class 9. Then simply ask the full progression arcane caster in your group to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you. You should even offer to buy it for his spellbook, and to always watch his back in combat (given your movement speed, that shouldn't be a problem).

It's mistake that I've seen over and over again as a DM. Most Gish builds are horrendously under-powered until high levels. (Duskblades are the exception, IMO). Consequently, most players who play a Gish feel pretty useless/bored/stupid casting Grease and unable to survive on the front line of combat when everyone else is 6th level, blowing away at their enemies with Fireballs or killing them in one blow with Leap Attack. And half of my current group is pretty new to D&D, not even owning a PHB.

So I applaud your creative use of a spell. But I would warn anyone against being a Gish just to get access to it.

[Yerrik]

Just nitpicking here:

Lvl 12 Human Sorc 3/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 7

Spells known as a 8th lvl Sorc, Caster Lvl 12
BAB of 8.25

Feats
1 Combat Casting
1 (Human Bonus Feat) Precocious Apprentice
3 Ascetic Mage

Not sure what the apprentice feat does so that might change things, but Ascetic mage requires the use of level 2 spells. Which a level 3 sorc wouldn't have.

[Shazzbaa]

Aaaand, here we are:
Precocious Apprentice

I've been considering a sorcerer/monk gestalt, I'll have to take a closer look at this spell...

[Ramza00]

You acknowledge the build isn't optimized, and that's a very good thing.

That build has a lousy BAB, hit points, and caster progression. At low levels it would suck royally. A superior build would be a strait Monk 11/Full BAB Class 9. Then simply ask the full progression arcane caster in your group to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you. You should even offer to buy it for his spellbook, and to always watch his back in combat (given your movement speed, that shouldn't be a problem).

So I applaud your creative use of a spell. But I would warn anyone against being a Gish just to get access to it.

I wouldn't call this build a gish, and yes I know its far from optimized. Yes a pure monk with this spell, fighter with a melee weapon with this spell or another focus melee chain, or wizard would be better at the level. Specialized characters are always better at dnd, if you have enough people to play all 4 major rolls. Thing is this build would be effective, regardless of it slowed down monk and sorcerer progressions as soon as you get Greater Mighty Wallop. I was just showing how it is still possible/easy to have both with the same character.

If you have a wizard in the party, it would be foolish for him not to cast this spell on the fighters weapons. If he complains he "wastes a 3rd lvl slot," get the DM to smash him in the head with the DMG. Then buy a cheap 3rd lvl pearl of power, (9,000 gp).

So in sum it would be better to have a wizard cast this on your monk since there is no reason not to. I was just showing how this spell makes a sucky character good, even if he has to get it himself.

[Ramza00]

A better monk would be

Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Psychic Warrior 2

Shou Disciple 5 gives you full bab, advances your flurry so we reach lvl 11 for greater flurry, 2 bonus feats, progresses your monk's damage (which is now at 11 thus a monk's belt and superior unarmed strike will bring it to 20) and allows you to flurry with any martial weapon.

Swashbuckler gives you Int to Damage with all light weapons and weapons you can use weapon finesse with which included unarmed strikes. Take Carmendine Monk for Int to AC instead of Wisdom), weapon finesse and full bab.

Fighter 4 gives you 3 bonus feats, and full bab

Psychic Warrior 2 gives you 2 more bonus feats.

Final BAB 18, 8 lvls with d8 hps 12 lvls with d10, 20 lvls with good Fort, 10 lvls with good Reflex+1 reflex from grace, 6 lvls of good Will

[mooseofshadows]

doesn't Improved Natural Attack require a natural armor bonus?

[Ramza00]

doesn't Improved Natural Attack require a natural armor bonus?

Improved Natural Armor does, I am talking Improved Natural Attack

Improved Natural Attack, [General]
Prerequisite

Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm

Some people argue that Improved Natural Attack doesn't work with monks, but the faq and the sage has ruled otherwise and it has been listed as recommend feats for monks in the PHB2 sample charcter. Of course it was a lvl 2 character and you need a BAB of 4 so that character isn't legal.
In sum its a long debate among some people

[Yerrik]

Shazzabaa---
Ooo thanks.



Bah Ramza00 beat me.

[mooseofshadows]

ah my bad. there's a misprint in the forgotten realms list of feats that says

Prerequisite: Natural armor, Con 13

[Thomix]

Some people argue that Improved Natural Attack doesn't work with monks

A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spell and effects that enchance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons

So, I think a feat could be considerate as a effect that improve natural weapons.