Discussion: sexism

[mindwarper10]

There are TWO threads visible at a glance about sexism in gaming....I have two questions
1: why? WHY?
2:Is this even something worth debating about? I mean seriously...

I have the solution.
I think it's time "androids" became a factual thing instead of a science fiction thing.
Cut off our lower halves, replace it with robotics, problem solves.
Need to reproduce? Human farms. I mean we grow other people, keep the population at a maintainable level, when someone dies, replace them with a pod child.


Seriously though...While I would love to be active in these talks/debates I hate joining large threads (for me that means it's made a second page already...because 1: I am not reading everyone's post, 2: I am not wanting to post redundant information...then again I suppose that's better than posting a link to a google search...lol)

It's a lot easier to deal with on a person by person basis as opposed to a "general population" basis.
Men like gals, that wont change.
Gals like men, that won't change.
The only exception is the exceptions....circular reasoning? yes. fact? extra yes. Gay/bi/lesbians and such are the exception. They do not of course negate, avoid, or exclude in any way sexism, they too can be sexist.

I do have a third question actually... I never looked at the first post of either topic...and have to wander...what is the basis for these discussions?

[Worira]

I do have a third question actually... I never looked at the first post of either topic...and have to wander...what is the basis for these discussions?

You're in luck, I thought of a great way to solve this problem.

[inexorabletruth]

*takes a sip of coffee an tilts head like a dog who doesn't get why you won't throw the ******* ball*

What in the world is going on here? Is this a rant or series of questions? I'm ready to hear some context, if you please.

[mindwarper10]

*takes a sip of coffee an tilts head like a dog who doesn't get why you won't throw the ******* ball*

What in the world is going on here? Is this a rant or series of questions? I'm ready to hear some context, if you please.

It's just I thought it a little ridiculous that there are MULTIPLE topics discussing sexism in gaming...
Which is something I don't understand, I personally have NEVER experienced any sexism in table top gaming. There are female players and male players...Everyone I have met have usually left it at that. The same with generally everyone I have ever spoken with.

I know that the books themselves can sometimes show sexist ideas (barely dressed females)
but the thing is they are created by strait men...what exactly is the problem here and what is expected?
It's the same concept for when a female author creates idealistic men...what is the problem and what do the problem holders actually expect?

There ARE sexists out there and always will be...Why should we talk about it so heavily? Shouldn't people expect humans to be humans and not deal with the ones we don't want to deal with?
People expect people to just let them be who they are...but they judge people for being who they are? I can't understand what the ACTUAL issue is...as it doesn't appear to be sexism even though that is the topic...

You're in luck, I thought of a great way to solve this problem.

I can't possibly get what your implying! Sarcasm*
okay okay...I guess I should...but I figure the idea is what the already discussed parts are...so I read the later comments instead....

[Hyena]

It's just I thought it a little ridiculous that there are MULTIPLE topics discussing sexism in gaming...

Well, congratulations - you've just created one more.

[mindwarper10]

Well, congratulations - you've just created one more.

no kidding O_O oops!
Satire....was the idea.

anyways...

I finally read the initial posts...
seems more of others ranting ideas of sexism is the topic...

However I take none of my questions back...

nor can I understand the sudden popularity of the sexism...

or why the majority of it is only talking as if only men are sexist...Or that all female sexists are feminist groups...

[Themrys]

It's just I thought it a little ridiculous that there are MULTIPLE topics discussing sexism in gaming...
Which is something I don't understand, I personally have NEVER experienced any sexism in table top gaming.

But unlike your avatar, you are female, yes?

Because otherwise, it would not surprise me at all, that you never experienced sexism. Or at least not noticed it. There are few men sensitive enough to feel hurt by the fact that all evil humans their characters have to fight are, for some reason, male, while only female NPC get to be innocent damsels.

[mindwarper10]

But unlike your avatar, you are female, yes?

Because otherwise, it would not surprise me at all, that you never experienced sexism. Or at least not noticed it. There are few men sensitive enough to feel hurt by the fact that all evil humans their characters have to fight are, for some reason, male, while only female NPC get to be innocent damsels.

Actually that's a fairly good point....
My current campaign I am running for friends features a male lead villain as far as the players are concerned to this point, he even plans to trump his evil mistress...even though the evil mistress is the actual main villain, her role isn't as obvious until later...

The majority of evil archetypes are men, female roles sporadically in between...

I never have thought about that! I just assumed the evil queen of darkness was most common I guess...

[urkthegurk]

I'm proud an excited that you're encountering and considering these issues for the first time. Remember sexism, like racism, homophobia, and other forms of bigotry, are systematic in nature, and your personal experience might not be an accurate study of the impacts of this system.

Please take a moment to consider the kind of priviledge that entails. Not everyone can go through life never being hurt in this manner. The fact that you claim you havent' had this experience says just as much towards a picture of systemitized oppression as the experience of someone who has suffered. Its a part of the picture. You're impacted by it too, but in a positive way; you're the benefactor of the violence. It sucks, I know, but not nearly as much for you as for folks who have it the other way around. So while I encourage you to take a moment to process the discomfort with being implicated in this process, I'd ask you to just remember what other people may be going through.

You see, Many men assume at this point that everyone wants to stop and help them deconstruct their priviledge, since it is hard work, and one doesn't want to make any mistakes and miss an important insight, and remain entangled in the mindset of sexism. Unfortunately, this is often a luxury that cannot be extended, since you are essentially asking a huge favour, both in terms of time commitment, knowledge, and personal risk associated with exposing these kinds of emotions and experiences. It is hard to be vulnerable in that way, with someone who is just beginning to figure out these issues. Whole university courses, entire degrees, are devoted to this subject.

Asking everyone to stop and explain sexism to you is, in a lot of contexts, somewhat sexist. The information is out there, if you want to explore it. While certain elements certainly need to be discussed and explained to be fully understood, essentially hoping that you can skip all the work and just be handed all the answers isn't going to work. Un-learning sexism takes practice, and even if you know all the information, you can still fall prey to conditioning. Framing your inquiry in that way sounds like you're questioning whether sexism exists at all. That is not a fair position, nor the sign of an open mind. Someone who is hurt by it doesn't need it explained; not in the same way. They do, however, need lots of support and tools in order to fight that sort of injustice, and in most cases that is where other people's energy, as well as yours, is better spent: actively helping in the struggle, rather than too much navel-gazing. That's how you really learn how to un-learn sexism.

[Scow2]

Please take a moment to consider the kind of priviledge that entails. Not everyone can go through life never being hurt in this manner. The fact that you claim you havent' had this experience says just as much towards a picture of systemitized oppression as the experience of someone who has suffered. Its a part of the picture. You're impacted by it too, but in a positive way; you're the benefactor of the violence.

This is a non-sequitur. Someone not suffering from an injustice does not mean they are benefiting from it... and a big part of the 'privilege' argument I've seen bandied about and experienced for myself has started ringing maliciously false... such as in this case guilting people unaffected by an issue into thinking they are.

The answer to the -isms isn't to cut out the 'privileged' - it's to empower the victims.

[Averis Vol]

But unlike your avatar, you are female, yes?

Because otherwise, it would not surprise me at all, that you never experienced sexism. Or at least not noticed it. There are few men sensitive enough to feel hurt by the fact that all evil humans their characters have to fight are, for some reason, male, while only female NPC get to be innocent damsels.

Wait, what the hell? since when is every evil NPC a man? If you want to argue that you play with sexist DMs and players, that's fine, but the folks I play with and the people I have met keep the realistic expectation that villainous intent can come from either sex.

See, this is why I by and large don't get into debates about sexes; it's always an unwarranted shot at men because the stereotypical demographic of table top non free form roleplaying games is male heavy, and a few bad eggs have made it seem like we all demean women, putting them on the intellectual level of animals and social level of something despised.

If you want to take that shot, how come each time one of my groups two female DM's have run something, it was a either a game centered around amazonian tribeswomen driving out invaders of their land (we were captured outsiders who bargained for our lives because 4 of us were men, so naturally we had to want to harm them, even though one was a cleric with vow of nonviolence, the other a paladin sworn to protect the liberties of all people. The other two were just ordinary men trying to get home.) and the sole woman among us was put in charge of us and given the right to kill us should we disobey. Or maybe the other game where the horrible king sent his wife away because she tried to murder him. The PC's were guards sent to escort her, and were only a little less then murdered in their sleep by peasants for doing our jobs.

The sexist bent in gaming is not only male centric; women take the DM power trip just as hard, some even doing it purely for "payback" over a slight that wasn't even there. Yes, bad things happen to women because of apish social conceptions, and this is used in a plot by many DMs to prove your enemy is a bastard. Sadly, stuff like this happens, while men are generally just murdered. That doesn't have to mean that women are the only ones this happens too; it's just that generally when women become violent it is in more subtle, passive aggressive ways. Man, it's almost like men and women are different!

Now, I'm sorry I had to quote you Themrys because this looks like I'm hashing blame towards you, I kind of am, but it's nothing personal; you just happened to be the first person to throw blanket assumptions based on your own preconceptions of men. In the future it might be best to step back and not throw an entire gender of people under the bus because of a few horror stories.
[/end rant that will probably get me banned]

[Themrys]

@urkthegurk: Thank you. Good post.

The answer to the -isms isn't to cut out the 'privileged' - it's to empower the victims.

One cannot be done without the other. If no one would profit from it, the oppression would not exist in the first place.

[Scow2]

One cannot be done without the other. If no one would profit from it, the oppression would not exist in the first place.

The oppressors are not the ones that are getting targeted by the Social Justice Crusaders, though.

[inexorabletruth]

Sexism and sexualization are terms that are often used interchangeably, mostly because they mean very similar things, but they aren't exactly the same.

Perhaps the reason why you don't experience sexism at the tabletop is because you are able to identify sexualization and separate it from it's evil twin: sexism. Sexualization, or "fan-service" in games are common enough, and fantasy games are designed with this aspect in mind. In fact it's a mainstay of their marketing program.

The problem is... just because the male barbarian is in a brown fur banana hammock and the female rogue is wearing a chain mail thong doesn't make the game sexist, but that doesn't stop people from interpreting it that way. In most fantasy settings women are much more empowered than they are in many real-world scenarios... they're just half-naked while being badass. *shrug*

My opinions on the matter is just let it go and enjoy the game. It's fantasy... and in your fantasy, they can dress however they like as long as their AC is high enough.

[urkthegurk]

This is a non-sequitur. Someone not suffering from an injustice does not mean they are benefiting from it... and a big part of the 'privilege' argument I've seen bandied about and experienced for myself has started ringing maliciously false... such as in this case guilting people unaffected by an issue into thinking they are.

The answer to the -isms isn't to cut out the 'privileged' - it's to empower the victims.

Not suffering can be a priviledge. I'm sure you've had enough suffering in your life to understand that. Relief is a blesssing. Now, consider the forms of violence from which there is little relief.

EDIT

Also its not a non-sequiter. Please explain what you think is a non-sequiter, or just don't point out non-existant fallacies. Its totally and completely on topic. 'Ringing false' isnt' a compelling argument, either.

EDIT:

On the subject of misandry: Its a misapplied term. Yes, women can be prejudiced, and yes, it sucks to be on the receiving end of it. But its not the same as misogyny, which is a form of, wait for it, systemetized violence. That's like saying, to use a DnD metaphore, that the peasants are equally at fault for rebelling against the dictator, or that Robin Hood was as bad as the Sheriff. Sure, both are capable of doing wrong, feminists aren't perfect people, they can even be awful. But the difference is, they don't have an entire cultural arsenal at their disposal. Men do. And to some extent, women also have access to it, but only for oppressing other women, not men.

I'll give you this: YES, if the mythological society of amazon warrior women really existed, that would be a sexist society. But they're a MYTH, and they DON'T. That society doesn't exist anywhere in the world. Real, patriarchal societies DO.

When a woman is prejudiced against a man, its mental self-defence, or justifiable paranoia. When a man is prejudiced against a woman, its mental assualt. Men have a system on their side to back up their hatred, women don't.

[Scow2]

Not suffering can be a priviledge. I'm sure you've had enough suffering in your life to understand that. Relief is a blesssing. Now, consider the forms of violence from which there is little relief.

The suffering I've had in my life comes from a result of my own actions, the actions of specific individuals, or ill-thought-out policies, and tearing others down to my level is most definitely not the answer.

"Because someone else somewhere is suffering, I am benefiting" is the non-sequitur.

[urkthegurk]

I didn't say 'Somewhere' I said 'Everywhere'. Actually, I said neither, but if you're going to put words in my mouth, they might as well be the correct ones. Either way, it would be just an argument, not a non-sequitur. In order to prove its a non-sequitur, you have to show that the conclusion is not supported by the premise. And this, to me, is not obvious.

EDIT: My point is that, while your claims to do with the sources of your suffering are not possibly true, they completely reinforce my argument. You are LUCKY that you are allowed to believe that your choices are your own, that there is no system working against you, that you are not threatened with violence just for who you are. Not everyone in the world is able to maintain that illusion. That is you privilege.

[mindwarper10]

I'm proud an excited that you're encountering and considering these issues for the first time. Remember sexism, like racism, homophobia, and other forms of bigotry, are systematic in nature, and your personal experience might not be an accurate study of the impacts of this system.

Please take a moment to consider the kind of priviledge that entails. Not everyone can go through life never being hurt in this manner. The fact that you claim you havent' had this experience says just as much towards a picture of systemitized oppression as the experience of someone who has suffered. Its a part of the picture. You're impacted by it too, but in a positive way; you're the benefactor of the violence. It sucks, I know, but not nearly as much for you as for folks who have it the other way around. So while I encourage you to take a moment to process the discomfort with being implicated in this process, I'd ask you to just remember what other people may be going through.

You see, Many men assume at this point that everyone wants to stop and help them deconstruct their priviledge, since it is hard work, and one doesn't want to make any mistakes and miss an important insight, and remain entangled in the mindset of sexism. Unfortunately, this is often a luxury that cannot be extended, since you are essentially asking a huge favour, both in terms of time commitment, knowledge, and personal risk associated with exposing these kinds of emotions and experiences. It is hard to be vulnerable in that way, with someone who is just beginning to figure out these issues. Whole university courses, entire degrees, are devoted to this subject.

Asking everyone to stop and explain sexism to you is, in a lot of contexts, somewhat sexist. The information is out there, if you want to explore it. While certain elements certainly need to be discussed and explained to be fully understood, essentially hoping that you can skip all the work and just be handed all the answers isn't going to work. Un-learning sexism takes practice, and even if you know all the information, you can still fall prey to conditioning. Framing your inquiry in that way sounds like you're questioning whether sexism exists at all. That is not a fair position, nor the sign of an open mind. Someone who is hurt by it doesn't need it explained; not in the same way. They do, however, need lots of support and tools in order to fight that sort of injustice, and in most cases that is where other people's energy, as well as yours, is better spent: actively helping in the struggle, rather than too much navel-gazing. That's how you really learn how to un-learn sexism.

Went to get dinner...return to find lots of awesome posts to read! I love you people!

First off I know sexism like any ism exists.
I have suffered first hand from racism...and I am not even full Mexican...The mocking is ridiculous. Even the playful "friendly" mocking.
I wasn't asking so much for the explanation of sexism...see my further posts after the first to get a better idea of my poor wording.

I also believe that having degrees or schools or anything beyond a class or two (college included) about sexism or racism is in part promoting the ideas more than removing them.


inexorabletruth
I agree with you. I know my biggest problem with people is with how they interpret something to be something its not.
I know sometimes I can hit highs (not extremes to my knowledge) of sexualization, I can be rather flirtatious or sometimes creepy...usually the creepy is intended as comedy.

Averis Vol
I would stay away from those gals...Running games like that would upset anyone that I would consider realistic. It might be comic at first, but the way you describe it sounds like they went over the top, or that's my assumption.







WAIIIT...men have a cultural arsenal?
How so?
I see scholarships for being female, not for being male.
Last I checked no company anywhere had to have a specific percentage of their workforce/board members/etc. being men, but for women? Of course!
Our culture supports women in all ways. Rapes against women are handled far better and more honestly.
Something bad happens to a women, or female child, entire communities rally for vengeance! Young boy or man? Pfft he better be black or not from America! (Mexicans only get support anymore if they don't originate from America...I was born in the wrong time period I guess to get that kind of support...)
But our culture anymore supports womenkind and women in power or getting into power. The day of male empowerment is far over.

[Hyena]

When a woman is prejudiced against a man, its mental self-defence, or justifiable paranoia. When a man is prejudiced against a woman, its mental assualt. Men have a system on their side to back up their hatred, women don't.

...what kind of double standards is that?

[Libertad]

Also, on privilege: it doesn't automatically mean that you have a higher standard of living (although economic privilege is a form of privilege). It means that as an individual you do not have to regularly deal with certain difficulties for people of your race/sex/gender identity/sexual orientation/etc that those without privilege in that area face on a regular basis.

For example, Person A is of a race which is stereotyped and profiled as criminals and other social malcontents. He is much more likely to be watched with a wary eye in stores and treated with suspicion by the police. Person B is of a race which is part of the majority and treated as the norm in his society. Person A does not have privilege in regards to race, but Person B does.

Privilege incorporates many areas and is not an all-or-nothing. One can be privileged in some areas, and not in others.

So in regards to sexism in media and games (the subject of the other threads), men have privilege in that representations of males in media are much more diverse: they can run the gamut from unattractive to handsome, sexual beings to sexless, much less likely to be stereotyped by their gender, much more likely to have media which explicitly caters to their sexual fantasies and wants, much more likely to be listened to as a consumer.

[mindwarper10]

{{scrubbed}}

[mindwarper10]

Also, on privilege: it doesn't automatically mean that you have a higher standard of living (although economic privilege is a form of privilege). It means that as an individual you do not have to regularly deal with certain difficulties for people of your race/sex/gender identity/sexual orientation/etc that those without privilege in that area face on a regular basis.

For example, Person A is of a race which is stereotyped and profiled as criminals and other social malcontents. He is much more likely to be watched with a wary eye in stores and treated with suspicion by the police. Person B is of a race which is part of the majority and treated as the norm in his society. Person A does not have privilege in regards to race, but Person B does.

Privilege incorporates many areas and is not an all-or-nothing. One can be privileged in some areas, and not in others.

So in regards to sexism in media and games (the subject of the other threads), men have privilege in that representations of males in media are much more diverse: they can run the gamut from unattractive to handsome, sexual beings to sexless, much less likely to be stereotyped by their gender, much more likely to have media which explicitly caters to their sexual fantasies and wants, much more likely to be listened to as a consumer.

This and what Hyena said.
That is a ridiculous double standard...though I wish he quoted the name of who posted it as I must have skipped over whoever said that.

[urkthegurk]

Okay...so I am just going to disregard this post
I wasn't trying to draw crackpots to the bugzapper here...
the fact that you believe anyone other than yourself is maintaining an illusion...means you should probably go get yourself checked out...Your choice though. I guess the system has enlisted us and the aliens to make sure you stay down in the dumps...By force if required...We won't kill you though, cause I guess somehow society thrives from your suffering or something like that...

Hey everyone else here isn't delusional are they?
Please tell me I am not the only one...

Well argued sir, I am quite persuaged by your logic. You've really deconstructed these issues, and pulled apart what makes society tick. Nay, I think, touched upon the core of the human condition! I applaud you.

[Averis Vol]

Averis Vol
I would stay away from those gals...Running games like that would upset anyone that I would consider realistic. It might be comic at first, but the way you describe it sounds like they went over the top, or that's my assumption.

As players though, they really aren't that bad. Sure, they like to make strong female figures, and being the primary DM I understand that they have problems with women being seen as less able then a man; something I both agree with and disagree with, I feel that certain jobs have a majority of men or women because men or women tend to be better at that job. I have very stern beliefs of gender roles, I know it's offensive, which is why I only bring it up in company of people mature enough to understand that I don't believe women should stay in the kitchen and serve their man, but I don't think a woman should work construction; it's not fitting work for a lady.

I got onto a tangent and I'm sorry, my point is that while these two women in particular think that I try to pull a power position on them when I make a king instead of a queen, or a male mayor instead of female (Which I'm not, I just have some goof balls in my group who would take the chance to oversexualise them to make me squirm. I'm not particularly comfortable roleplaying a woman myself) but I'm really not; If theres going to be extended confrontation with a social figure, I as a DM need to be able to understand the character well enough, beyond pure motivations and into the psyche, to role play them. And while I do have major Female villains, they tend to not proc the evil scale as much because, at least from what I've seen, women tend to be more seductive and subtle about the way they do things, where men tend to be more upfront about their actions.

I'm not a psychologist, so I can't really speak on the reason why people feel the need to oppress others because of trivial things such as sex(ual orientation) or race, but when it comes to your normal, average people, while many like me may feel there a roles set, these roles are not definitive, they are baseline and by no means a concrete thing, most men don't actually think women are less capable then women, they just realise that some people are better at some things; and the majority of those things also happen to have a greater majority of one gender. Nothing malicious about it.

[mindwarper10]

Well argued sir, I am quite persuaged by your logic. You've really deconstructed these issues, and pulled apart what makes society tick. Nay, I think, touched upon the core of the human condition! I applaud you.

thank you, thank you.
wait didn't someone mention earlier about me being female? sir you called me?

I admit it was a bit rude, but have you ever actually thought about those very things you mention? I get it not everyone believes we have choice in our actions in life, perhaps we are controlled by our fates. I wont argue with that, we all have our beliefs. As far as I am concerned I have all the proof I need that I take my own actions, and have directly been the reason I rise up in the world, not because the government decides to pity me, not because it was meant to be.
A lot of issues with people staying on the bottom of the totem pole is directly related to their own doing, and the fact that so many people believe the government or society owes them something.
It's not an issue of class versus class like so many believe. It is an issue of self versus reality.
If I don't make all reasonable attempts to succeed I will not succeed. As opposed to, If I make all reasonable attempts to succeed, somebody else is holding me back.

It's simply not realistic.
Understandably there are circumstances for different people that make things difficult for them...but that is not the case for everyone, nor is it the same difficulty for all people.

Your assuming everyone is threatened because of who we are? Proof please?
I have been threatened yes because of who I am, that is circumstance though and not lifelong fact. But what is threatening all people from being themselves?
How is the government or whatever holding us all back?

[Themrys]

...what kind of double standards is that?

No double standards, actually. It's seeing reality as it is.
You're still wearing the tinted glasses of privilege, I'm afraid.

[Hyena]

Oh, right. I'm wrong by the virtue of being a man.
So do I get you right? When a man hates women, it's called misogny and it's wrong. But when a woman hates men, it's okay and it's called a backfire of the misogny? Bull****.

[urkthegurk]

Mexicans only get support anymore if they don't originate from America...I was born in the wrong time period I guess to get that kind of support...

You obviously understand the advantage to you that would be had if you could benefit from them. So are you arguing that these programs should be extended to Mexicans, to counterbalance some of the obvious prejudice, or that such programs should be scrapped completely, so that everyone can be screwed, unless they're well off? If you're arguing for free education for everyone, I can get behind that!

[Themrys]

Oh, right. I'm wrong by the virtue of being a man.

No, you're wrong by the virtue of being wrong. You could always choose to check your privilege, and then you could, for a change, be right in a debate.

You don't have to wait for lawful good afterlife for that!

[mindwarper10]

You obviously understand the advantage to you that would be had if you could benefit from them. So are you arguing that these programs should be extended to Mexicans, to counterbalance some of the obvious prejudice, or that such programs should be scrapped completely, so that everyone can be screwed, unless they're well off? If you're arguing for free education for everyone, I can get behind that!

Why would everyone be screwed?
Isn't equal treatment where all people are treated equally or am I missing something?
I don't want an education because I have heritage or due to gender. That's just silly.
Now free education for everyone? heck yeah. I love me some education. I have always said that if I could I would pursue scholarly knowledge simply because I could. If nothing else it would be nice, if a little inconvenient to the government that has to pay, to get my higher paying job...for free, well as far as doing the work without paying to do the work free can be.