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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Buffing the Mundanes
    Mundane classes are defined as base classes which do not cast spells at 1st level.
    Full BAB classes are classes that get +1 BAB per level.
    I want to exclude spellcasters and monsters from most of these feats/class features, unless the monsters also have the relevant class levels.

    Separately, bump Fighters and Paladins up to 4 + Int skill points per level. Let the player pick two skills based on his backstory. Nerfing the casters is a separate thread-project.

    Changes to Iterative Attacks:
    1. Iterative attacks are based on Mundane class levels. 2 attacks at 6, 3 at 11, 4 at 16.
    2. All attacks are at your normal Base Attack Bonus.

    This makes Improved and Greater TWF much better. Of course, d12 weapon + Power Attack is still better.

    Power Attack Group. I know we want to give mundane Nice Things, but it’s also not ideal that the math favors “two-handed weapon + Power Attack” over all other fighting styles.

    Power Attack (Tweaked): 2-handed Power Attack adds only +1 to damage per -1 to hit.

    1. “Reckless Attack” - to AC, + to damage, up to BAB
    Spoiler
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    Requires: Power Attack, BAB
    On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from your armor class and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty to armor class applies until your next turn.


    2. “Improved Power Attack”
    Requires: Power Attack. Original 3.5 PA feat

    Quickblade Group.
    Finesse fighters, dual weilders, trippers, disarmers, etc.

    3. "Be Awesome With Two WEapon Fighting"
    Special attack with one weapon, standard attack with the other.
    Spoiler
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    Requires: Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
    (Maybe restricted to light armor?)
    Allows you to use one weapon for Combat Expertise or a CE-related feat (Improved Disarm/Feint/Trip), instead of CE having to be a full-round action.
    Fluff: The whole idea of two-weapon fighting is using subtlety and guile to confuse and deceive your opponent into dropping his guard. BAW-TWF lets you use TWF to defend yourself, or feint, or try a disarm with one weapon while setting up your main attack.


    [i]AS stated above, the changes to iterative attacks make Improved and Greater TWF even more valuable.

    4. “Improved Weapon Finesse” +Dex to damage instead of Strength
    Requires: Weapon Finesse.
    Allow you to add your Dex bonus instead of your Strength bonus to damage rolls, as well as attack rolls. If you have a Strength penalty, it still applies.

    Ranged Weapons
    Not sure exactly what “Power Attack for bows” would look like.
    It looks like Pathfinder's Deadly Aim feat. -1 to hit, +2 to damage for every +4 of BAB. Pathfinder folks, is that balanced?

    Defender Group
    You could use a two-handed weapon to smash your enemies, or you could put some feats and some focus into using that shield more effectively to keep yourself and ultimately your allies alive.

    Fluff: The novice can carry a shield and use it passively to defend hiimself. The veteran warrior has mastered the art of using his shield to actively block and parry attacks against him.

    5. "Be Awesome With A Shield"
    -2 to attacks, +1/2 BAB to AC
    Spoiler
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    Requires: Not sure. (No Clerics! Grumble Tier 1 grumble.) Maybe 4 levels in Full BAB classes?
    Take -2 to all attacks, add 1/2 BAB to your shield bonus when using a large shield.


    6. “Shield Ally”
    Add your BAB to your AC and one adjacent allly's AC. This is a full attack action.
    Requires: BAW-Shield



    6A. "Improved BAW-Shield" Add your shield bonus (from the shield and 1/2 BAB from BAW-Shield) to your touch AC. You are using your shield to block attacks, including touch attacks.
    Requires: BAW-Shield

    I just noticed that shield bonuses don't apply to touch AC, probably because we've played D&D for decades and only thought about shields in editions where "facing" was an issue. People would be more likely to use a shield in preference to TWF or THF if shield applied to touch AC, and the fluff of BAW-Shield fits nicely with your shield blocking touch attacks.


    7. "Fight Me First" Intercept an attack on an ally within 5’.
    Spoiler
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    Requires: Be Awesome With a Shield, Combat Reflexes
    You can use an attack of opportunity to intercept one attack aimed at an ally if the ally is within a five-foot step. The attack is instead rolled against you. (I know I'm copying this idea, does anyone know from where?)


    Other
    8. Foil Action (Ex)::Probably being removed: Unbalanced (immediate action) and duplicated by Spellbreaker.
    A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking as an immediate action.
    Spoiler
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    The Fighter may throw sand into a beholder's eye, bat aside a key spell component, or strike a weapon hand with a thrown object, but the result is the same: the opponent's action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. A Fighter must be within 30 feet of his opponent to use this ability, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack at -4 (target is Diminiutive). Using Foil Action is an Immediate action. A Fighter may not wait until an action is partially completed before deciding to attempt to foil the action, but must instead attempt to foil an action as it is declared. Note that this means that a Fighter may not foil a Full Attack (because it is not declared until after it has already begun), nor may he foil a move or charge action that began out of range. From Tome Fighter, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)


    9. "Right Where I Want Him" Move your enemy 5’ in a chosen direction.
    Spoiler
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    Requires ?7 levels in full BAB classes, maybe something else?
    Allows a beatstick to use a full action to Bluff a melee opponent into a particular unoccupied square/hex. If it works (Bluff + BAB vs Sense Motive +BAB), your opponent withdraws into the spot you want. If it doesn't work, you get one standard attack at +4 to hit.


    10. Shake It Off.
    Break a status condition with a d20 + level roll vs DC is 15 + Caster Level
    Spoiler
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    Requires: ?12 levels in Mundane classes
    In the round after you magically acquire a new “status condition” (ability damage, blinded, deafened, confused, cowering, dazzled, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, shaken, panicked, nauseated, paralyzed, sickened), you can try to “shake off” the effect. Roll d20 + your levels in Mundane classes vs DC 15 + Caster Level of whoever or whatever created the effect.


    11. Spellbreaker. Cast Dispel Magic with a melee or ranged attack.
    Spoiler
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    Requires: ?12 levels in full BAB classes.
    Allows a melee or ranged attack to act as a Dispel Magic, to either counterspell or to dispel one spell effect on the target. If the attack succeeds, roll damage normally, and use the damage result as the “Caster Level” for the Dispel Magic check.


    12. “Snap Out of It!” Spellbreaker on a nearby ally.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Requires: Spellbreaker
    As Spellbreaker, but on an ally with an unarmed strike for subdual damage. Use subdual damage plus levels in Full BAB classes for Caster Level on the check. (Should this be folded into the Spellbreaker feat?)
    Last edited by johnbragg; 2013-10-24 at 09:05 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Well, the idea is certainly a good one. In terms of comments on implementation:
    -I'm not a fan of many of your names, but that's really a stylistic matter.
    -The boost to iterative attacks buffs the rogue in the wrong direction, making him closer to the fighter. Maybe only full-BAB classes should get iterative attacks (as a class feature, so maybe even make fighters get more), and buff rogues and monks in a different direction.
    -Some of your more powerful feats should probably come with a minimum BAB, so that there's something unlocked at higher levels of fighter.
    -For "power attack for bows", allow him to sacrifice attack bonus to boost either the critical threat range or crit multiplier when using a bow.
    -For the shield feat, perhaps just make it require shield proficiency, and remove shield and armor proficiency from the cleric and druid (war-domain clerics can get it back instead of weapon proficiency.) Of course, a cleric could take shield proficiency as a feat and then the shield-based feats...but that's fairly feat-heavy for a class that doesn't get any bonus feats. (Whereas the fighter has the feats to max out several paths and switch between them based on the situation...)
    -Foil Action should not be fighter-specific; other classes can take it, it just represents a larger portion of their available feats...

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Well, the idea is certainly a good one. In terms of comments on implementation:
    -I'm not a fan of many of your names, but that's really a stylistic matter.
    At this late date, many (most) good names are taken, and I'm trying to avoid duplicating names. I actually like the "Be Awesome With" tag, if only because it hasn't been as overused as Improved/Greater/Supreme but a few of the names were just god-awful and better names would be welcome.

    -The boost to iterative attacks buffs the rogue in the wrong direction, making him closer to the fighter. Maybe only full-BAB classes should get iterative attacks (as a class feature, so maybe even make fighters get more), and buff rogues and monks in a different direction.
    I could see that. But if we take away +6/+1 and +7/+2 and leave the rogue with +6 and +7, that's hurting the Rogue, and I don't have anything Nice to give them right now. So I figure I'll go ahead and let them have two attacks when the fighters get them.

    -Some of your more powerful feats should probably come with a minimum BAB, so that there's something unlocked at higher levels of fighter.
    I thought everything had either a minimum BAB or minimum # of mundane class levels. Or they had a prerequisite that did.

    Oh, I see what you mean. Right now, I don't have firm ideas as to what should be unlocked at what level. I agree that someone who gets two feats in one level shouldn't get say "Shake It Off" and "Spellbreaker" at the same time. But I don't feel that strongly about it either way--if someone took a 1-level dip and now they get a Fighter bonus feat and a 9th level feat at the same time, they could get both at once and it's not gamebreaking. (PRovided the feats themselves aren't terrible and broken and unbalanced.)

    -For "power attack for bows", allow him to sacrifice attack bonus to boost either the critical threat range or crit multiplier when using a bow.
    Ooh, nice. "PRecise STrike"? Taken by Pathfinder. "PRecision Strike" is a real-world category of GPS-dependent missiles and weapons.

    See why my feats are named things like "Crit-Fishing With a Ranged Weapon"?

    -For the shield feat, clerics?
    I'm nerfing the clerics pretty hard (see signature for the Pseudocleric-Warrior and the Adept-Pseudocleric, and the Druid-Adept). So I'm leaving the clerics their Mace, Full Plate and Shield architecture. They just can't Be Awesome with their shields if they still want to cast spells. Unless they sink a bunch of levels into Fighter.

    -Foil Action should not be fighter-specific; other classes can take it, it just represents a larger portion of their available feats...
    I thought I put a strikethrough on Fighter 9. Yes, it should be available to all mundane classes, maybe at "9 Mundane class levels."

    Thanks.
    Last edited by johnbragg; 2013-10-21 at 02:08 PM.

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    Just to Browse's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Foil Action is ultimate lockdown. It comes from a class designed to tumble with wizards. I'd seriously recommend toning that down.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Foil Action is ultimate lockdown. It comes from a class designed to tumble with wizards. I'd seriously recommend toning that down.
    Why, though? "Stop the big bad wizard from casting the big bad spell" seems like exactly the sort of thing that a 9th+ level mundane should be doing.

    But rereading it, there's no reason for the fighter to ever not Foil Action. The wizard might end up casting NO spells, and the fighter still gets all of his attacks.

    So cost-free Immediate ACtion is a problem.

    Maybe Foil Action costs you an Attack of Opportunity? Costs you your next standard action? Costs you your next move action?

    Thanks. Foil Action _is_ a little more than it should be.

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    Just to Browse's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    The thing is fighters don't use immediate actions, so they will just use that ability every turn and not case about lost actions because they don't lose any actions.

    Ranged action denial with an 80% chance of success is always something people will want. In the game difficulties most people on GitP seem to use, this can pubstomp any boss encounter because its one party removing 0-20% of their actions to deny the monster 0-100% of their actions. Totally worth it, even if it takes the whole turn.

    Why do you want this feat? What should it be used for? And "stopping anything a wizard does" is not an available option.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I thought everything had either a minimum BAB or minimum # of mundane class levels. Or they had a prerequisite that did.
    But those tend to be fairly low for even the highest ones.

    Oh, I see what you mean. Right now, I don't have firm ideas as to what should be unlocked at what level. I agree that someone who gets two feats in one level shouldn't get say "Shake It Off" and "Spellbreaker" at the same time. But I don't feel that strongly about it either way--if someone took a 1-level dip and now they get a Fighter bonus feat and a 9th level feat at the same time, they could get both at once and it's not gamebreaking. (PRovided the feats themselves aren't terrible and broken and unbalanced.)
    I think there's no problem with letting them grab both at once for unrelated trees, but for related trees there should be some forced spacing between them.

    Ooh, nice. "PRecise STrike"? Taken by Pathfinder. "PRecision Strike" is a real-world category of GPS-dependent missiles and weapons.

    See why my feats are named things like "Crit-Fishing With a Ranged Weapon"?
    IMO, it's better just to take a name that works and doesn't sound ridiculous, and if there's some overlap that's not such a problem.

    I'm nerfing the clerics pretty hard (see signature for the Pseudocleric-Warrior and the Adept-Pseudocleric, and the Druid-Adept). So I'm leaving the clerics their Mace, Full Plate and Shield architecture. They just can't Be Awesome with their shields if they still want to cast spells. Unless they sink a bunch of levels into Fighter.
    If using the stuff in your sig, requiring shield proficiency and a moderate BAB will have essentially the same effect on clerics as requiring a certain number of full-BAB classes, and fits a lot better with what already exists.

    I thought I put a strikethrough on Fighter 9. Yes, it should be available to all mundane classes, maybe at "9 Mundane class levels."
    Yeah, but you forgot to change the feat text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Ranged action denial with an 80% chance of success is always something people will want. In the game difficulties most people on GitP seem to use, this can pubstomp any boss encounter because its one party removing 0-20% of their actions to deny the monster 0-100% of their actions. Totally worth it, even if it takes the whole turn.
    Then maybe they should have bosses who can't be hit with 80% success rate at a -4 penalty?

    (Although having it be immediate-action is sort of extreme.)
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2013-10-21 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Behold, my first use of blue text:

    You're right, all bosses should have maxed touch AC. Any half-decent bosses have at least greater mage armor. What's a balor again?
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-10-21 at 04:04 PM.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The thing is fighters don't use immediate actions, so they will just use that ability every turn and not case about lost actions because they don't lose any actions.

    Ranged action denial with an 80% chance of success is always something people will want. In the game difficulties most people on GitP seem to use, this can pubstomp any boss encounter because its one party removing 0-20% of their actions to deny the monster 0-100% of their actions. Totally worth it, even if it takes the whole turn.

    Why do you want this feat? What should it be used for? And "stopping anything a wizard does" is not an available option.
    IT does amount to "stopping everything a wizard does", and that's unbalanced.

    It really shouldn't do anything that Spellbreaker couldn't do, so I think I'm dumping that feat.

    PEACH in action!

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Behold, my first use of blue text:

    You're right, all bosses should have maxed touch AC. Any half-decent bosses have at least greater mage armor. What's a balor again?
    Ah, I missed that it's a touch attack. Yeah, you're right, that would be too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    IT does amount to "stopping everything a wizard does", and that's unbalanced.
    Not really; "stopping everything a wizard does in combat" is a valid target for a fighter, since wizards are still better at noncombat and at determining whether combat happens.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Not really; "stopping everything a wizard does in combat" is a valid target for a fighter, since wizards are still better at noncombat and at determining whether combat happens.
    It's a valid target, yes. But I think the Spellbreaker mechanism is a lot fairer, and does 90% of what Foil Action is supposed to.

    Does anyone have thoughts on the ones besides "Foil Action"? The idea of a beatstick whacking the magic user, or slapping the taste out of his buddy's mouth to break a spell?

    Any thought on the shield feats? Obviously not all players will enjoy being damage sinks and jumping in front of enemy attacks, but some will enjoy the Defender role. (I know it's a whole 4e class, but that's 4e.)

    The fighter also gets to do a little bit of BFC with "Right Where I Want Him", maneuvering opponents into position for his allies to drop the hammer. Or just get the opponent further away from the caster/the vulnerable NPC Martha MacGuffin or whatever.

    I have to look at my notes later and figure out what I meant to do with "Be More Awesome With a Shield." It's a full action, so I think I meant to add BAB to the AC of allies within 5', including you. Just on you, that's probably better than the combined effects of fighting defensively and Combat Expertise at their maximums, but it's also a full attack action, so you're not attacking. Adding your full BAB to the armor class of a few friends is a big boost. Stay next to the raging barbarian and he's close to untouchable, even though he's not wearing armor. Should that be half BAB? Should that just not exist?

    EDIT: Maybe limit it to one ally? You're spending your round using your shield (and your melee weapon) to block and parry attacks against yourself and one ally?
    Last edited by johnbragg; 2013-10-21 at 07:01 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Cool feats. A few suggestions to the power attack, two-weapon, and ranged trees:
    -The new power attack feat reckless attack is similar to shock trooper. Why not just let players take shock trooper?

    -The changes to iterive attacks are cool and from what you said they make two-weapon fighting better, but another option (or addition) should/could be to role all 3 (4? if counting epic) two-weapon fighting feats into one feat and eliminate the feat tax, making twf a lot better.

    -Also for two weapon fighting, make weapon finesse not require BaB +1

    -Ranged feats I find to work if you role point blank shot and precise shot together, and rolling manyshot and greater into one feat

    -Also allow manyshot to work with rapid shot as a standard action (keeps the -2 penalty from rapid shot)

    -Ranged power attack: There is the pathfinder one which is essentially power attack for ranged. You get the 2 to 1 ratio when your BaB is high enough IIRC
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    Cool feats. A few suggestions to the power attack, two-weapon, and ranged trees:
    -The new power attack feat reckless attack is similar to shock trooper. Why not just let players take shock trooper?
    They could take Shock Trooper, but that does more, but only in certain (charging) situations.

    -The changes to iterive attacks are cool and from what you said they make two-weapon fighting better, but another option (or addition) should/could be to role all 3 (4? if counting epic) two-weapon fighting feats into one feat and eliminate the feat tax, making twf a lot better.
    The feat tax is one of the few things Fighters have going for them in the system. I'd rather keep the tax and give Fighters a bonus feat every level.

    -Ranged power attack: There is the pathfinder one which is essentially power attack for ranged. You get the 2 to 1 ratio when your BaB is high enough IIRC[/QUOTE]

    I've put it in the original post, thanks.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    There are a lot of bad things to say about foil action, but one thing it has going for it is that it is genuinely game changing. The ability to shut down a single opponent makes some kinds of encounters obsolete. A DM just can't throw a single boss monster against an iconic group of four adventurers and expect it to be a challenge. This is not a bad thing - around 9th level there are all kinds of abilities that fundamentally change how the game plays (raise dead, teleport, contact other plane...). Saying that foil action is a game changer doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.

    What really makes it great is its anti-wizard capability. There are lots of ways in which a 9th level wizard can shut down a mundane character - this is a welcome bit of turnabout. A wizard will be genuinely concerned if there is a character within 30 ft. who can use foil action. However there are several ways to counter it, including not getting hit by a ranged touch attack (either due to barriers, high touch AC, miss chances, mirror images, etc.) or by having multiple action types to employ (quickened spells, swift expeditious retreat, etc.).

    So it is, imho, a great ability. But there are some problems with it.

    One thing I find about foil action that makes it hard to adjudicate is its reliance on actions being declared. For example, a full attack action is never declared; someone makes an attack, and after it is resolved they decide if they want to make the bonus attacks granted by a high BAB. When does a mundane with foil action get to interrupt? Unless you are in a game where it is routine to say "as my standard action I... and with my move-equivalent I..." you'll probably run into trouble.

    The other problem is with the fluff, which I think was best explained by Ice9 over on the Gaming Den boards:

    Spoiler
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    There is kind of a fluff problem with Foil - the way it's described, it borders on "Captain Hobo" syndrome, which I'll explain.

    Champions/HERO system is effect-based. That means that the strength of a power is determined by what you paid for it, and you can add whatever flavor you want to that. So Kid Saturn can have 12d6 gamma eye beams, and Battle Machine can have a 12d6 artillery barrage, and everyone's happy.

    However, then there's Captain Hobo. He buys similar stats to everyone else, and then gives them extremely weak flavor. His attack is hitting people with a bent golf club, and his armor is cardboard boxes wrapped in duct tape. His reason for moving at SPD 5 is "too many energy drinks and vodka". Captain Hobo makes everyone's character lamer just by existing. Now it turns out your gamma eye beams do the same damage as a drunk guy with a golf club. Not very impressive.

    Ok, it's rare anyone would actually play Captain Hobo, and if they did so in a non-joke campaign it would probably be vetoed. But the effect does happen to a lesser degree, just from differences in what people think is cool. Adam makes a non-super secret agent that's just that badass, and now Bob's beam of pure destruction has the same effect as a handgun. Not an insurmountable problem, but it does require getting on the same page from the start.

    So, back to D&D. Foil Action, with the current fluff, has exactly this problem. You're Beowulf, the Berserker, the force of nature, the monster that destroys armies. And you wind up for the blow that will shatter a mountain ... and then some guy slaps you upside the head, or tosses sand in your face, and you're done, no check, just done. Badass factor ... gone.

    If Foil Action was described as being more significant fluff-wise, as some kind of impressive action that looks capable of foiling just about anything, I think that'd be half the battle.

    The other half is that level should matter. Two 9th-level characters should not be able to keep a 20th level one reliably stun-locked.

    I think that the mechanics of foil action could be tinkered with to make it easier to use. For instance, it might only work against spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities that take a standard action or longer to use. If you wanted to nerf it so that a DM could use a Big Bad in a lazy way, make it so that it is an automatic success only if the mundane has the Edge against the target (basically, has a higher BAB). Otherwise the target gets a will save vs DC 10+BAB or something.

    As for Captain Hobo syndrome - well, I think that shortly after 5th level every character needs to define some sort of power source. If you want to pretend to be 100% real-world mundane for another level or two, fine. But for a ninth level character ability there has to be some non-Hobo explanation for how you do stuff like this; latent psychic abilities, divine lineage, favor of the God of Mundanes, whatever.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    edit: wasn't foil action among johnbragg's proposals? I thought it was, but I just got around to responding to criticism of it. Maybe I'm in the wrong thread?... Anyway, this is what I had to say:
    I included it, because I liked the idea, and linked the source. Then I liked it so much that it made me decide that Spellbreaker (melee/missile attack to Dispel Magic, roll attack damage as CL for check instead of damaging caster) was a good idea. Which makes Foil Action mostly unnecessary. So it's marked as removed in the first post.

    The other problem is with the fluff, which I think was best explained by Ice9 over on the Gaming Den boards:

    As for Captain Hobo syndrome - well, I think that shortly after 5th level every character needs to define some sort of power source. If you want to pretend to be 100% real-world mundane for another level or two, fine. But for a ninth level character ability there has to be some non-Hobo explanation for how you do stuff like this; latent psychic abilities, divine lineage, favor of the God of Mundanes, whatever.
    I think we disagree. Your character may be a real world mundane. But your character isn't playing in the real world, he's playing in a magical world, where "badass" is as much a law of physics as arcane magic is. Call it the Chuck Norris effect. Or the Ole Man Henderson effect.

    By this fluff, if you portaled John McClain to D&D, he could absolutely Dispel Magic against a caster by punching him in the mouth. (Subject to Attacks of Opportunity, mage armor, etc.)

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    I'm a bit leery of my shield feats--they're good and powerful feats mechanically, but whether players would have much fun with that PC.

    "Attack me! Leave my friend alone and take my Hit Points instead!" is not something players often say.

    But I just found something in the SRD Variant rules that would make the Defender-type fighter a more fun roleplay. Roughly, reduce the AC bonus of armor by 1/2, and gain 1/2 the value in DR.

    Now, Mr Fighter with Fullplate & Shield with BAW-Shield at 10th level (and no magic just to make the math easier) is rolling at AC 21 (10 + 2 shield + 4 Full plate + 5 1/2 BAB) and DR 4. Mr Cleric (Full Plate, Shield, Mace) is at AC 16, DR 4. So it makes a little more sense for Mr Fullplate to jump in front of the arrow or greataxe or claw aimed at Mr Wizard if Mr Fullplate knows he's got a little bit of Damage Reduction.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...eReduction.htm

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I'm a bit leery of my shield feats--they're good and powerful feats mechanically, but whether players would have much fun with that PC.

    "Attack me! Leave my friend alone and take my Hit Points instead!" is not something players often say.
    That depends greatly on what the player is doing, though - if someone's specifically building themselves to be a tank, they're going to have tons of hit points, tons of AC, and take Fight Me First specifically so they CAN say that. I showed that one to my pocket-tank and he was actually incredibly excited about it.

    Would it be a popular, often-used feat? Probably not. But I think it is a very interesting mechanic, and full of role-play potential at the very least. Suddenly, escorting the king's daughter to safety becomes a question of keeping the tank within five feet of her and healed up, rather than buying a scroll of dimension door or invisibility.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by ArotaAlehthrra View Post
    That depends greatly on what the player is doing, though - if someone's specifically building themselves to be a tank, they're going to have tons of hit points, tons of AC, and take Fight Me First specifically so they CAN say that. I showed that one to my pocket-tank and he was actually incredibly excited about it.
    Especially since Be Awesome With a Shield is a prerequisite, that introduces the idea of defense as something your character actually focuses on and thinks about. Rather than just "the best defense is a good offense."

    Would it be a popular, often-used feat? Probably not. But I think it is a very interesting mechanic, and full of role-play potential at the very least. Suddenly, escorting the king's daughter to safety becomes a question of keeping the tank within five feet of her and healed up, rather than buying a scroll of dimension door or invisibility.
    The king's daughter is an obvious use, but I think the more common use would be "Meatshield the caster." Which has the player-dissatisfaction risks of the healbot/buffbot cleric, or the Core Bard--awesome in a spreadsheet of who contributed what in the combat, but lacking in Moments of Awesome.

    Although if the meatshield is meatshielding heroically, that probably helps. Also helps if we implement the "full-BAB iterative attacks, only for Mundanes"

    So the meatshield round goes something like:
    1. Opponent breaks invisibility, attacks the caster--"Fight Me First!", sucks up damage.
    2. Wizard casts.
    3. Meatshield gets two attacks at full BAB. "Take that! And that!"
    4. Cleric attacks once, or casts.

    Then next round, if he's loaded up on my feats, maybe the meatshield uses "Right Where I Want Him" and positions someone for a Sneak Attack from the rogue.
    Last edited by johnbragg; 2013-10-23 at 09:14 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    I'm taking another look at this, and a couple of questions/issues arise:

    Do Rangers and Paladins count as mundane? Does psionics, incarnum or vestige-binding count as mundane? If a prestige class does not grant or advance spellcasting, does it count as mundane? I'm wondering if defining a "mundane level" as hit dice minus caster level would work. A character with multiple mundane levels (due to more than one spellcasting class) would use the lowest.

    Iterative attacks: I think it would be better if iterative attacks ran as secondary attacks (i.e. at -5). So a 17th level fighter would have attacks at +17/+12/+12/+12, and a 6th level rogue would have attacks at +4/-1.

    I would recommend Power Attack and Combat Expertise being made maneuvers that anyone could use (like full defense in the standard rules). There is a little bit of feat bloat in the current rules, which a few such tweaks could help correct. Like checking feats with "Improved", "Greater" and "Supreme" in their names and seeing if they can be benefits of the base feat when the character gets the appropriate BAB.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    I'm taking another look at this, and a couple of questions/issues arise:

    Do Rangers and Paladins count as mundane?
    No, I'm going with the definition of
    "Mundane classes are defined as base classes which do not cast spells at 1st level."

    [quote]Does psionics, incarnum or vestige-binding count as mundane?

    I don't know those systems well enough to be sure, but I suspect not. I assume they get to do stuff at 1st level. Psion, Psychic Warrior, Wilder definitely not mundane.

    Soulknife, eh, maybe. I mean the class is clearly not "mundane", but it also seems to suck pretty hard--it's non-mundane ability is "have a weapon".

    If a prestige class does not grant or advance spellcasting, does it count as mundane? I'm wondering if defining a "mundane level" as hit dice minus caster level would work. A character with multiple mundane levels (due to more than one spellcasting class) would use the lowest.
    That sounds like a good general rule.

    Iterative attacks: I think it would be better if iterative attacks ran as secondary attacks (i.e. at -5). So a 17th level fighter would have attacks at +17/+12/+12/+12, and a 6th level rogue would have attacks at +4/-1.
    I think I like the 6th or 7th level mundane getting a big boost right about the level that casters start throwing Fireballs and Polymorphs and Wildshaping. (Of course in my package, the rebuilt Druids aren't wildshaping and the wizards are effectively capped at 4th level spells...)

    I would recommend Power Attack and Combat Expertise being made maneuvers that anyone could use (like full defense in the standard rules).
    That's an idea. I don't know what I think about it yet.

    There is a little bit of feat bloat in the current rules, which a few such tweaks could help correct. Like checking feats with "Improved", "Greater" and "Supreme" in their names and seeing if they can be benefits of the base feat when the character gets the appropriate BAB.
    No, I still say that the "feat taxes" work to the benefit of fighters. There's no point coming up with Nice Things for Mundanes to Have if the clerics just come along and say "Oh, me too."

    If I could think of a fighter feat good enough to justify it, I'd absolutely be willing to require a total waste of a feat as a prerequisite. But instead, I'm just going with "N Mundane class levels" if I think rogues should have it too, or "BAB +N" if I think it should be an option for clerics.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    Do Rangers and Paladins count as mundane?
    No, I'm going with the definition of
    "Mundane classes are defined as base classes which do not cast spells at 1st level."
    Paladins and Rangers cast spells beginning at 4th level. So they are mundane by your definition. I imagine that some people might use some of your rules without the others, and they might be confused by how to apply these definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    I would recommend Power Attack and Combat Expertise being made maneuvers that anyone could use (like full defense in the standard rules). There is a little bit of feat bloat in the current rules, which a few such tweaks could help correct. Like checking feats with "Improved", "Greater" and "Supreme" in their names and seeing if they can be benefits of the base feat when the character gets the appropriate BAB.
    No, I still say that the "feat taxes" work to the benefit of fighters. There's no point coming up with Nice Things for Mundanes to Have if the clerics just come along and say "Oh, me too."
    You negate the fighter's feat advantage if you require them to pay a feat tax for every halfway interesting trick. They limp along with sub-par feats while spellcasters are awesome without any feats at all. Whereas if you make all the feats cooler and more worthwhile, you multiply the advantage of a fighter.

    Besides, making mundane a prerequisite for feats should keep those pesky clerics away.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    You negate the fighter's feat advantage if you require them to pay a feat tax for every halfway interesting trick. They limp along with sub-par feats while spellcasters are awesome without any feats at all. Whereas if you make all the feats cooler and more worthwhile, you multiply the advantage of a fighter.

    Besides, making mundane a prerequisite for feats should keep those pesky clerics away.
    Agreed and I would like to add on giving mundanes like fighter isn't going to improve them at all really. Feats don't go above tier 3 (generally) and there is only so much you can do with feats. Stock fighter is already capable of doing well in combat so giving him more feats and making new combat feats aren't going to improve how well he can perform in any other situation.
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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    You negate the fighter's feat advantage if you require them to pay a feat tax for every halfway interesting trick.
    I believe that part of a good fix has to be brevity. I'd rather say
    "Give the Fighter a bonus feat at every level" than tweak 5-10 more feats.

    If I were writing a new edition, maybe Improved and Greater TWF get rolled into TWF. But I'm not, I'm trying to write a fix. So I want each part of the fix (new caster classes, spell changes, new feats) to be at most a page or so.

    They limp along with sub-par feats while spellcasters are awesome without any feats at all.
    Part of the answer has to be hitting the casters with a nerf bat. Assume that the primary divine and arcane casters have been knocked down to Tier 3.

    Whereas if you make all the feats cooler and more worthwhile, you multiply the advantage of a fighter.

    Besides, making mundane a prerequisite for feats should keep those pesky clerics away
    Mundane does do the job. WE can use "Fighter levels", "Levels in Full BAB classes", "Mundane class levels" or "BAB", depending on who we think should get the shiny toy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    Agreed and I would like to add on giving mundanes like fighter isn't going to improve them at all really. Feats don't go above tier 3 (generally) and there is only so much you can do with feats.
    I'm not trying to get him above Tier 3. I'm trying to get him out of Tier 5. There's no way to be Tier 1 or 2 without spells, and I'm not sure you can be Tier 3 without spells. I figure if we can get the Fighter to shine in combat, not just pull his weight in combat, then we have at least a high Tier 4.

    Stock fighter is already capable of doing well in combat so giving him more feats and making new combat feats aren't going to improve how well he can perform in any other situation.
    True, and there's not much I can do about that before he stops looking like a Fighter, at least to me. Maybe 4 Skill points instead of two, maybe pick two skills to be in-class based on backstory.
    Last edited by johnbragg; 2013-10-23 at 01:41 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I'm not trying to get him above Tier 3. I'm trying to get him out of Tier 5. There's no way to be Tier 1 or 2 without spells, and I'm not sure you can be Tier 3 without spells. I figure if we can get the Fighter to shine in combat, not just pull his weight in combat, then we have at least a high Tier 4.



    True, and there's not much I can do about that before he stops looking like a Fighter, at least to me. Maybe 4 Skill points instead of two, maybe pick two skills to be in-class based on backstory.
    Well even just getting him to tier 4, why not give him real class features instead of only feats. Hell, give him bonus feats, rework and add awesome combat feats, and give him class features. Check out some reworks if you can't think of class features. Maybe take some of your new feats and make them class features only the fighter gets and buff them up a bit.
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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    You negate the fighter's feat advantage if you require them to pay a feat tax for every halfway interesting trick. They limp along with sub-par feats while spellcasters are awesome without any feats at all. Whereas if you make all the feats cooler and more worthwhile, you multiply the advantage of a fighter.
    No reason you can't do both: Every halfway interesting trick requires a feat (or even more than one) to be worthwhile more than occasionally, but every feat gives substantial interesting functionality.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    Well even just getting him to tier 4, why not give him real class features instead of only feats.
    Because one thing I like about the 3.X Fighter design is that players can customize. The idea is, one player wants to play an archer. Here's a bunch of feats that make him an awesome archer. One player wants to play a knight-in-shining-armor. Here's a bunch of mounted combat feats. One player wants to be Errol Flynn. Here's a bunch of awesome swashbuckler-type feats.

    The problem is that not enough of the feats were awesome enough to matter. So if you weren't full Power-Attacking with your two-handed weapon, you were pretty much not doing your job. I don't like that there's basically only "one good way" to play a fighter.

    If I see someone's awesome class feature, I'm converting it to a feat, because not all players will want to play their Fighter that way. Ideally, you could be an excellent Fighter with a longsword, or a flail, or a rapier and dagger, or a greataxe, or a bow.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Because one thing I like about the 3.X Fighter design is that players can customize. The idea is, one player wants to play an archer. Here's a bunch of feats that make him an awesome archer. One player wants to play a knight-in-shining-armor. Here's a bunch of mounted combat feats. One player wants to be Errol Flynn. Here's a bunch of awesome swashbuckler-type feats.

    The problem is that not enough of the feats were awesome enough to matter. So if you weren't full Power-Attacking with your two-handed weapon, you were pretty much not doing your job. I don't like that there's basically only "one good way" to play a fighter.

    If I see someone's awesome class feature, I'm converting it to a feat, because not all players will want to play their Fighter that way. Ideally, you could be an excellent Fighter with a longsword, or a flail, or a rapier and dagger, or a greataxe, or a bow.
    I don't see why they can't have both. Feats are so minimal in terms of power level that you could keep the feat progression the same and still give them a bunch of useful class features. In my remake of fighter I gave them feats every three levels instead of two and gave some sort of class feature every level. After playtesting, it raised fighters power and versatility and still allowed him to be the customizible weapons expert he should be
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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    I don't see why they can't have both. Feats are so minimal in terms of power level that you could keep the feat progression the same and still give them a bunch of useful class features. In my remake of fighter I gave them feats every three levels instead of two and gave some sort of class feature every level. After playtesting, it raised fighters power and versatility and still allowed him to be the customizible weapons expert he should be
    But those class features do cut into customizability somewhat. I'd rather boost feats' power to the point where putting one-third your level in feats into a particular style will make you tier 3-4 level at that style (if you also have the BAB and hit points for combat), and give even more feats to the fighter so that he can reach that level in several styles at once.

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    Feats are so minimal in terms of power level
    Why is that written in stone? Are metamagic feats minimal? Maximize Spell? Persistent Spell? Natural Spell might as well be a Druid class feature.

    A lot of posters seem to think that the Fighter is limited because he doesn't have class features. That's not the problem--it's that he doesn't have cool stuff. It doesn't matter if that stuff is called a feat or a class feature.

    Since the 3.X Fighter's defining mechanism is "get lots of feats", if we can think of mechanics to make the Rebuilt Fighter a high Tier 4, why not just call them Feats and require Fighter levels or mundane levels or a certain BAB?

    Let's say we decide that Fighters, and only fighters. should be able to make all of their iterative attacks at full BAB. Is that good if it's a class feature, but bad if it's a feat that requires 6 Fighter levels?

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    Default Re: 3.5 12 New-ish Fighter Feats, PEACH (Buffing the Mundanes)

    Perhaps a simpler idea:

    The fighter, by level 20, gets EVERY feat in the PHB by level 20 that's currently listed as a fighter bonus feat.

    Also, all 'one weapon only' feats, he applies to every weapon.

    Meaning a high level fighter could pick up an axe, a lance, or even a rock off the ground, and be +2 to hit, +4 to damage, and has improved crit with the weapon (or random rock.)

    What's that? Mr. Fighter has to shoot something with an arrow? No problem, he's got EVERY FEAT in the book for shooting arrows, and can do it mounted if he wants. Whirlwind Attack? No problem. Great Cleave? You betcha. Power Attack? Sure. Finesse? If he needs it.

    Improved Trip? Can do. Improved Shield Bash? Sure. 2nd best grappler next to the monk? Absolutely. (+2 to hit, +4 to damage and 19-20 threat range can't compete with a monk's fist, but it's certainly the next best thing...)

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