Got a Real World Economics/Biology/Physics/History/Etc. Question?

[Mr. Mask]

There was a thread rather like this about a year back, used for fielding questions that didn't suit the Got a Real Weapons or Armour Question? thread. I'll restart it.


NOTE: Be careful of topics such as real world politics, religion, etc.. IN consideration of the forum's rules.


As a beginning question... how many livers and other organs would a centaur have? Considering they have two torsos, it's left me wondering how their biology would function.

[Topus]

Interesting question.
I think you can double all the organs, assuming you have to sustain a very complex creature that probably came up from a symbiotic or parasitic process rather than an environmental pushed evolution.
So you have two hearts to adequately pump the blood, four lungs to adequately oxygenate tissues, and yes two livers for doubled metabolic processes.
I will go also for two distinct digestive systems, one omnivorous and one herbivorous. They should have larger nostrils and nose to inhale a bigger quantity of air, and they should have larger mouth to contain teeth for ripping and teeth for grinding.
Maybe they should have a valve that redirects the bolus to two distinct esophagi depending on the source of food. Thus they should two distinct intestines one "omnivorous" and one "herbivorous".
Of course two anuses, one in the usual position horses have it, for herbivorous intestine, and one between the two frontal legs for omnivorous intestine.
I think they should have a single brain, located in the head, usually prolonging in the spine, that goes through the entire human and horse torsos.
Maybe the brain should have a third portion with a bigger corpus callosum connecting the three "trisphere".
Then, how they thermoregulate? Humans are able to sweat, but horses don't.
I think centaur should have a larger number of sweat glands, innervating also the horse body (thus making them more resistant than normal horses).
At last, about genitals, i've thought about a complex system about centaurs having both humans and horse genitals.
To generate a centaur they have to fecundate two different egg cells, with two different sexual intercourses. Then the fecundated egg cells meet in between of the two torsos. If they are both fecundated they merge and grow into a "centaur" uterus bearing a baby centaur. If not the fecundated egg migrate into the human or horse uterus to grow a baby human or a baby horse. So, female centaurs do have three uterus, and they can bear a centaur, a horse, or a baby, or any combination of the three at the same time.
This could lead to an interesting development in centaurs societies.

[hymer]

The thread you remember isn't gone. At the time of writing this, it's on the first page.

[GraaEminense]

Obligatory "does that count as real-world...?" post.

Not a proper biologist, but...

Form follows function. Based on appearances, it seems likely that the centaur has dual organs to some degree. To what degree, hard to say: I would expect most of the digestive system to be in the horse part (since the human part can´t fit a large enough stomach for both) since neither horse nor human have multiple stomachs. Actually there´d be room to spare, since the centaur would need a pretty human-like diet (no horse-teeth) and so wouldn´t need the full horse-scale system to utilize grass and the like.

Lungs would probably be dual, since the human bit is too small for the necessary horse-lungs while the huge human brain wants ready and short-distance air supply.

I´d expect dual hearts, one main horse-heart for the heavy work and a secondary human one to, again, keep the brain and the rest of the human bits well circulated.

Also, there really needs to be a reason for the human torso to look human, and protecting lungs and heart is what it does.

The rest of the bits, like liver and kidney, I really can´t think of a reason for multiplying. Just increase the horsey ones a bit and it should be good.

Interesting side note: Horses can´t vomit. With a horsey digestive system, neither can the centaur (and the stomach is oh so far away from the mouth, too). Would make alchohol poisoning a real cause for concern, so perhaps dual livers after all.

[hymer]

Vomiting can be facilitated by having things pass through both stomachs. Grass and such needs to go on for digestion (an organ like a gizzard would be useful to chew cud without actaully needing to send it all the way to the mouth), and things that need to go back up gets checked out in the humanoid stomach before going too far.

[TheStranger]

Two of most things sounds reasonable, but I'm not 100% sure how lungs would work. Basically, human lungs aren't nearly large enough for a horse-sized body. But running an airway all the way to horse lungs in the lower body seems problematic as well. I'm not sure how the muscular action to make that happen would work (humans and horses have very different breathing mechanics while running). And then you've got to ask how the airway would pass all the way through the human torso, and whether it would be large enough to pass enough air for the horse lungs. You'd need a very large mouth and neck to make that work, I think.

It might actually be less problematic to treat the entire human torso like an oddly-shaped neck for the horse body. Nothing in there but bone and muscle; all the biology happens further down. Getting oxygenated blood the extra distance to the brain could be tricky, but seems to work for giraffes (for instance). A human brain admittedly needs more oxygen, but I think it's plausible anyway. If necessary, handwave with a very robust heart and/or extra red blood cells.

So you'd end up with broad faces and thick necks to allow enough airflow (and food intake), but relatively slender upper bodies (you can compensate with more muscle if you want to offset that).

[AcerbicOrb]

May I suggest having the organs be in the lower third of the human's body and the front third of the horse's body? That seems like a logical midpoint to me.

[Garimeth]

Posted this in another thread similar to this but it was ignored...

Economics questions regarding commodity production and population support. Semi homebrewing a 13th Age game I am trying to balance the following community's populations in order to support them all and all of the agricultural needs. Society has paved roads in between major cities, a good weather almanac to predict sailing and occupies an area of 103k square miles. I tried balancing this off of the 3e DMG figures, but this seems way off to me, any help is appreciated.

Spoiler

Show

Axis: the metropolis seat of the Empire, near the sea and with a waterway leading to the city.
Population 275,000

Glitterhaegen: mercantile capitol, entry point for dwarven goods entering the empire, located on the central sea, major trade hub.
Population: 75,000

Tramore: A holding located on the highway in-between Axis and Glitterhaegen, Tramore is only noteworthy because its farms are able to support the number of travelers who use it as a waypoint – causing it to become the unofficial pit-stop between the two cities.
House Martens: The Governor’s Son Kenneth Martens, 34, manages his estates here.
Population: 1,800 in Tramore, with another 5,800 in the surrounding agricultural area.
Major Exports: Commerce.

Greenhill: The produce grown here supports all of Glitterheagen. The land is unusually productive, and McDurglebadger has special enchanted greenhouses that allow him to grow year-round all manner of exotic spices and fruits found nowhere else in the empire.
House McDurglebadger: Managed by his Steward Master Bildgman.
Populations: 4,200 in Greenhill itself, 35,600 in the surrounding farming villages.
Major Exports: Agriculture

Delos: Delos is the only major holding in the Bitterwood, unless you count Shadow Port. Delos is mostly supported by the lumber trade and there are three very productive mills. The other portion of income is derived from animal hides and meats.
Lord Quentaine: Managed by his steward Master Quinn, a halfling. Delos is not a profitable holding.
Population: 1,200
Major Exports: Lumber, Leather

Kashel: The primary source of revenue here is metal from the mines in the Giantwalk. Most of the workers here work the mines, but there are a few small farms as well. The two famous taverns here have something of a feud going between which establishment brews the better beer.
House Gratina: The affairs are managed by Lady Marta.
Population: 4,700 in Kashel itself, and another 6,200 throughout the province.
Major Exports: Iron, steel, tin, copper, and gold.

Ruskil: Located on the plains in between the northern Bitterwood and Calamity, Ruskil is the seat of House Rahon. Famed for having the best horses, and riders, in the empire many of its citizens have served in the Legion’s cavalry. Ruskil is a pastoral community consisting mostly of shepherds, cattle farms, horse breeders, and fishermen.
House Rahon:
Population:2,100 in Ruskil itself, with another 12,400 spread out around the countryside.
Major Exports: Horses, Lumber, wool, leather, cheese, and beef

Ballina: (on a peninsula just south of the empire's capitol)
House Alrian
Population: 5,000 in Ballina and another 27,000 in the surrounding areas.
Major Exports: Agriculture, sailing vessels,

I adjusted these figures from the OP based off of some info I found on France from around the time of the rennaissance and figure magic makes up for the lack of ren tech and science. Thoughts? I doubt my players will care, but I care.

[Mr. Mask]

Garimeth: I estimate it being about as accurate as you can get, without help from an economics specialist.


Centaur: A lot of good ideas and points here.

Stranger's point about lungs makes me wonder if the main set of lungs would be within the horse, but a second set, smaller than a man's lungs would exist within the human torso, mainly to supply quick oxygen to the brain, and to serve as a back up if the horse lungs' efficiency drops. Of course, as pointed out with Giraffes, this isn't necessary.

We have to decide when recreating the mythological centaur with real biology, is how closely we want to adopt the legends and appearance of the original. Not having a human set of organs within the human torso, for example, could create a very uncanny-valley appearance. That would make them unique among cartoon centaurs.

Topus' idea of adopting the Cretan style of centaur already would separate them from the norm.


One thing to consider from the idea of dual organs, is what happens if one set of organs lose much of their efficiency or stop? If the horse lungs can't breathe, I don't feel the human set would be enough for running? If the human set stopped, the horse set could likely keep the body going at reasonable efficiency, but though it might be highly uncomfortable for the brain?

Having the mass of a horse as well as dual organs, could lead to the centaur being an extremely tough combatant.

[Brother Oni]

A couple of points regarding centaur biology:

The only way I can see the spine functioning, is if the horse's spine plugs into the human's pelvis. This requires some creative jointing with regard to the horse's front legs to a humanoid pelvis, but that's a minor concern in comparison.

Another comment is that I believe most greek depictions of centaurs had them as extremely fond of meat (particularly human flesh) to the point that I wouldn't be surprised if they were obligate carnivores.
A high protein and fat diet gives the centaur more energy to function (a neccessity considering its mass), thus negating any requirement to have a herbivorous digestive tract (which is so long since grass has a low energy density), including additional modification for teeth (lots of constantly self replacing flat grinding molars) and sheer time most herbivores spend processing plant material (chewing the cud).

The teeth of omnivores are generally unsuited for chewing grass as a primary food source, since there's no need for canines, plus all that silica puts a lot of wear and tear on the molars.

The extended GI tract permits a centaur to extract more energy from their meat rich high energy diet, thus giving them an advantage over other obligate carnivores. This also has the side effect of only needing one anus.

About the only modification I'd make is to the centaur's teeth - increased number of canines and less molars for all the meat eating. I don't think Topus' suggestions are wrong, just a different way of looking at it.
I see no reason why the two types of centaur couldn't 'exist' and it'd certainly be a surprise (not to mention interesting, exotic and more than a bit squicky) for players.


With regard to thermoregulation, horses sweat just fine. They just don't have same capability of thermoregulation as humans due to their higher mass resulting in a smaller volume:surface area ratio, thus reduced endurance comparatively speaking.

[Topus]

With regard to thermoregulation, horses sweat just fine. They just don't have same capability of thermoregulation as humans due to their higher mass resulting in a smaller volume:surface area ratio, thus reduced endurance comparatively speaking.

Thank you for your clarification, i was convinced they don't sweat at all, maybe that kind of scientific urban legend any non expert relies on :)
Oh and by the way, it seems some serious research (worth the ig-nobel attention) has been done about centaurs physiology :P

[Mr. Mask]

Carnivorous centaurs was strange to me, considering they're part horse. Although, considering your point about how useful it would be... I guess it's better to go with the original lore (are there any carnivorous hoofed creatures?).


Topus: Hey, it's short too. Thanks Topus!

[Brother Oni]

Thank you for your clarification, i was convinced they don't sweat at all, maybe that kind of scientific urban legend any non expert relies on :)

Horse sweat is very well documented, although due to a protein excreted by the horse, it's not the same salty liquid we associated with humans: Horse sweat and latherin.

Spoiler

Show

Carnivorous centaurs was strange to me, considering they're part horse. Although, considering your point about how useful it would be... I guess it's better to go with the original lore (are there any carnivorous hoofed creatures?).

There are modern hoofed omnivores (boar and pigs), who will more than happily kill and hunt prey animals or other sources of meat.

There are a number of extinct species which were hoofed and may be potentially omnivorous or carnivorous.

In legend, some depictions of the cleaning of the Augean stables (Heracles' fifth labour), the horses within were carnivorous.

[hamishspence]

There are modern hoofed omnivores (boar and pigs), who will more than happily kill and hunt prey animals or other sources of meat.

It also crops up in some species of deer.

[SimonMoon6]

Once, in a game where everybody (or almost everybody) was playing monsters from Savage Species, one of my fellow players was playing a centaur. The DM promptly told him that "horses can't control when they [excrete solid waste]", so this PC was going to have the same problem.

Is this a true statement? Would it apply to a centaur? Or was this DM full of "solid waste"?

(This certainly made me not want to play a centaur in this any of this DM's games. Fortunately, I was playing an air elemental.)

[Topus]

Horse sweat is very well documented, although due to a protein excreted by the horse, it's not the same salty liquid we associated with humans: Horse sweat and latherin.

Spoiler

Show

Oh, now i understand why they say that horses make a foam when they are pushed to the limit

In legend, some depictions of the cleaning of the Augean stables (Heracles' fifth labour), the horses within were carnivorous.

It was one of Heracles labours but it was the eighth, Diomedes' Mares.

The DM promptly told him that "horses can't control when they [excrete solid waste]", so this PC was going to have the same problem.

They don't care when and where to defecate, but i don't think they have no control on the sphincter.

[Brother Oni]

It was one of Heracles labours but it was the eighth, Diomedes' Mares.

Ooops, my bad. I knew it was one of his.

Once, in a game where everybody (or almost everybody) was playing monsters from Savage Species, one of my fellow players was playing a centaur. The DM promptly told him that "horses can't control when they [excrete solid waste]", so this PC was going to have the same problem.

A horse doesn't learn as it's not as intelligent as a human and hence doesn't see the need to control where its waste is released.

Humans aren't born with innate control of their sphincter - that's something taught during early childhood. I see no reason why an intelligent (and comparatively civilised) centaur couldn't learn to do the same (whether a nomadic centaur born on the open plains would have a reason to, is a separate and valid question).

If a DM tried that on me without a valid reason, then I'd argue that humans are equally non-toilet trained and hence crap themselves whenever they have an involuntary bowel movement.

[Randel]

Regarding centaurs, I'm pretty sure centaurs would have unusually long arms if the want to be able to pick stuff up off the ground or to reach the other parts of their body. I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for the human part to dress the horse part in armor properly without outside assistance otherwise.


What if the centaurs arms are more like elephant trunks with the ability to stretch and bend in such a ways that they can reach the rest of their body?

[Mr. Mask]

What if the centaurs arms are more like elephant trunks with the ability to stretch and bend in such a ways that they can reach the rest of their body?

What does TV tropes call that again? Nightmare Fuel?

Fair point regardless. I wonder if you could allow them to turn their human torso almost 180 degrees, so that they could more easily attend to their horsish half.

Considering most animals can't attend to themselves the ways humans can, it doesn't appear strictly necessary.

[CombatOwl]

There was a thread rather like this about a year back, used for fielding questions that didn't suit the Got a Real Weapons or Armour Question? thread. I'll restart it.


NOTE: Be careful of topics such as real world politics, religion, etc.. IN consideration of the forum's rules.


As a beginning question... how many livers and other organs would a centaur have? Considering they have two torsos, it's left me wondering how their biology would function.

90% sure the answer is magic.

[Brother Oni]

Fair point regardless. I wonder if you could allow them to turn their human torso almost 180 degrees, so that they could more easily attend to their horsish half.

Given a human pelvis, it's perfectly possible. I'm not seeing how the IG Nobel version can even hold itself upright (unless it can dislocate its spine, the human part is always going to be held at a forward angle).

Considering most animals can't attend to themselves the ways humans can, it doesn't appear strictly necessary.

I agree on this, although it could be an incentive for centaurs to form social groups, so they can groom or otherwise help each other.

With regard to armour, anything more complicated than a mail shirt typically required assistance to put on (knights are often armoured by their squires), so I see no issue with them helping each other put barding on their horse parts.

Likewise picking stuff off the ground isn't much of an issue - horses can kneel or otherwise lie/rest on the ground.

90% sure the answer is magic.

There's a thread in Friendly banter which was trying to find the source of a quote regarding the suspension of disbelief and one that sticks out is "you can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable".

The impossible part is the existance of centaurs in the first place (magic!). The improbable part is how such a creature would live and function (verisimilitude).

[Mr. Mask]

Oni: You're voicing my thoughts. Admittedly on the point of family units, it's a bit of a problem if you want to have Centaurs who live solitarily--but then, it's not such a problem that you'd be denied such stories (they might be forced to look for help, and be in risk of dying from injuries they couldn't attend to themselves).


I wonder about how armoured centaur warriors would be. Unlike horses who have no say in how much barding they have if any, Centaurs will be pretty concerned about their large target of a body. They'd armour themselves as much as they could afford to, with thought to not over-encumber themselves. Leaves questions of how well you can armour a horse if you were trying your best.

[erikun]

I've always been curious about merfolk, specifically how to streamline them for swimming purposes. Legs haven't been so much of a concern, as they can easily be set up to behave like tails, but it does bring up the question of how awkwardly their feet/legs would end up due to fins.

One thing that I've never quite settled in my mind are the arms, though. Would fins on the arms point towards the hands, and held at their sides while swimming? Fins point back towards the shoulder doesn't seem to make sense, as you wouldn't hold your arms forward all the time I'd think. Would they have webbing or a membrane between arms and chest, like a humanoid bat? Would that even be useful underwater?

[Darklord Bright]

I'm not entirely sure if this is the right place to ask a question about Geography, but I'm not sure there really is another around here, and the question doesn't warrant its own thread.

So a setting I've been developing takes place primarily within an area of one of my maps which appears, from my modern knowledge, to be a large caldera not unlike Yellowstone. It's got the ring of mountains, and an indent in the middle that's fairly wide and largely flat at the centre, with warm pools and such.

The problem is, I'm not sure what to call it. 'Caldera' seems inappropriate, because the people living there don't really have the knowledge or the word to identify it as such. 'Valley' just feels like an incorrect term given the general size of the place, and 'Crater' doesn't really sound like what you'd call a geographical area people have lived in for generations.

Anyone able to help with this?

[Brother Oni]

Leaves questions of how well you can armour a horse if you were trying your best.

Very heavily:

Spoiler

Show

Note that a centaur doesn't have to carry an armoured man on the middle of its back, plus with four legs, it can support a heavier load, so this would be fairly plausible in my opinion:

Spoiler

Show

Note that we're wandering into the realms of the weapons and armour thread now.

One thing that I've never quite settled in my mind are the arms, though. Would fins on the arms point towards the hands, and held at their sides while swimming? Fins point back towards the shoulder doesn't seem to make sense, as you wouldn't hold your arms forward all the time I'd think. Would they have webbing or a membrane between arms and chest, like a humanoid bat? Would that even be useful underwater?

You may be interested in looking up monofins, which essentially make people swim like how I would imagine a merfolk would: link.

Some research indicates that the arms would indeed be held forward to improve streamlining, since the human head and shoulders aren't particularly good at slipping through the water.

This would suggest that a membrane between the arms and chest like a bat wouldn't be particularly useful, since it would need to be taut to provide its effect, which would only be possible in the arms extended position. In all other situations, I would think it would contribute significant drag, or at least I haven't seen any monofin wearers using a suit with fins under the arms.

The problem is, I'm not sure what to call it. 'Caldera' seems inappropriate, because the people living there don't really have the knowledge or the word to identify it as such. 'Valley' just feels like an incorrect term given the general size of the place, and 'Crater' doesn't really sound like what you'd call a geographical area people have lived in for generations.

If caldera is a too specific and technical term, then I don't think any other technical geological term would be suitable or known to the people.

Why not 'Hot Water Valley' or an actual place name? I believe the Romans didn't have a specific word for volcano until after the Mount Vesuvius eruption - they just called them fire bearing mountains.

[TheStranger]

You may be interested in looking up monofins, which essentially make people swim like how I would imagine a merfolk would: link.

Some research indicates that the arms would indeed be held forward to improve streamlining, since the human head and shoulders aren't particularly good at slipping through the water.

This would suggest that a membrane between the arms and chest like a bat wouldn't be particularly useful, since it would need to be taut to provide its effect, which would only be possible in the arms extended position. In all other situations, I would think it would contribute significant drag, or at least I haven't seen any monofin wearers using a suit with fins under the arms.

That video looks just about right to me. I think hands forward is the most streamlined position to swim with a human torso, and I don't think an underarm membrane would add anything. Not that merfolk wouldn't sometimes swim in other postures, but that would be for reasons other than efficiency. You could maybe add some partially webbed fingers, but other than that I can't see any way to modify the human upper body for better swimming while keeping the merfolk aesthetic. And the more I think about it, the less convinced I am that webbed fingers would actually be helpful.

[Darklord Bright]

If caldera is a too specific and technical term, then I don't think any other technical geological term would be suitable or known to the people.

Why not 'Hot Water Valley' or an actual place name? I believe the Romans didn't have a specific word for volcano until after the Mount Vesuvius eruption - they just called them fire bearing mountains.

This is a point, though it's mostly so I have something to refer to it as in the text. I don't want to call it a caldera, so I might just continue to refer to it as a valley, since otherwise I'd have to call it by its name every time I referenced it.

[fusilier]

This is a point, though it's mostly so I have something to refer to it as in the text. I don't want to call it a caldera, so I might just continue to refer to it as a valley, since otherwise I'd have to call it by its name every time I referenced it.

"Caldera" means something like "cauldron" -- it's a reference to the shape, so you could call it a cauldron, or a bowl (bowl's are usually smaller), etc.

[AMFV]

I'm not entirely sure if this is the right place to ask a question about Geography, but I'm not sure there really is another around here, and the question doesn't warrant its own thread.

So a setting I've been developing takes place primarily within an area of one of my maps which appears, from my modern knowledge, to be a large caldera not unlike Yellowstone. It's got the ring of mountains, and an indent in the middle that's fairly wide and largely flat at the centre, with warm pools and such.

The problem is, I'm not sure what to call it. 'Caldera' seems inappropriate, because the people living there don't really have the knowledge or the word to identify it as such. 'Valley' just feels like an incorrect term given the general size of the place, and 'Crater' doesn't really sound like what you'd call a geographical area people have lived in for generations.

Anyone able to help with this?

Well Calderas are pretty difficult to identify as anything once they've erupted. They usually don't have have much that would identify them. Frequently they'll have domes that will grow later, which happened at Campi Felegrei. Mostly what they would call it would probably depend on if they saw the mountain before the dome collapse occurred, if there was a dome collapse.

You could call it something based on the type of rocks present and their weathering (Yellowstone, Blackrock (World of Warcraft, I know but still same concept), the color could range from grays (composite, andesitic type composition) to dark colors (glassy rhyolitic eruptions, which are pretty rare on Earth).

What about something like "The Devil's Valley" a lot of hot spot regions have names associated with hell or dragons because of the smoke and mist that a geologically active region can produce. "The Valley of 10,000 Smokes" is another example of an appropriately named area, although not a caldera, but the result of an eruption.

Also how active is the region and how violent are eruptions, as I'm sure that would have a lot of impact on the name, if it's a major Caldera like Yellowstone it may erupt rarely, if it's part of a bigger system like Campi Felegrei, you may see other volcanism in the area, which you don't see as much around yellowstone, a lot depends on the nature and depth of the magma chamber.

What type of environment were you imagining, because that way I can give you some more information about what sort of volcanism might be involved. Is it part of a range? Do you want it to be on a subduction zone, or to be hot spot volcanism? If it's like Yellowstone you're probably wanting hotspot Volcanism.

You can add some Volcanic necks and cinder cones and such to the landscape too, instead of necessarily naming the big region, I'd add that sort of extra detail, maybe a few smaller mountains, resulting from the magma chamber moving, that way you have more interesting things to name. Also since it's a complex system you can have some variation in the magma types and eruptive events. Add in some flood basalts maybe, especially on a large scale, so that the players will be aware of the size of the volcanic activity.

Well I could go on, let me know if you want to know anything else about volcanism or hotspots or whatever, since that's kind of my thing.

[Jay R]

As a beginning question... how many livers and other organs would a centaur have? Considering they have two torsos, it's left me wondering how their biology would function.

From C.S. Lewis's The Silver Chair:

A Centaur has a man-stomach and a horse-stomach. And of course both want breakfast. So first of all he has porridge and pavenders and kidneys and bacon and omelette and cold ham and toast and marmalade and coffee and beer. And after that he tends to the horse part of himself by grazing for an hour or so and finishing up with a hot mash, some oats, and a bag of sugar. That's why it's such a serious thing to ask a Centaur to stay for the weekend. A very serious thing indeed.

Doesn't anybody do research any more?