MUHA contest Chat Thread (NUbrew: what to do? Sounding the coming... of MUHA 2!)

[Morph Bark]

WINTER IS COMING... AND SO IS MUHA 2

What is MUHA?
MUHA stands for Mixed Ultimate Homebrew Arts and is a competition conceived as a collaborative effort between Welknair and I by the end of 2012. The contest can be found here, and Temotei, the organiser of the Base Class Challenge, was the winner with his Chronoshifter. Welknair and I started talk of doing a second MUHA competition right after the first was completed, but due to his absence this was never realized. I would, however, love to do it again, and Temotei has told me that he might be available as a judge if it were to happen.

Non-Usual Homebrew? What?
Non-Usual Homebrew (let's affectionately call it NUbrew <3 /jk) is basically all Homebrew for DnD 3.5 that isn't a base class, PrC, race, monster, or part of an existing subsystem (spells, powers, disciplines, vestiges, etc). On one hand this includes completely new systems, such as Kellus' Xenoalchemy and Gramarie, Realms of Chaos' Xenotheurgy and Don Quixote's Spellshaping. On the other hand is things that do exist in official DnD, but doesn't get brewn a lot and also doesn't get much of a spotlight in official material, such as Welknair's Bloodlines. On the third hand, there's things that lie completely outside of official material and new subsystems, things that have no ties to base classes or PrCs at all and which might only have a referential connection to other things, either filling in the gaps like Welknair's Deity Rising or changing up something existing for something better like Lord Gareth's Alignment Color Wheel. Those last two categories are especially intruiging due to expanding the breadth of Homebrewing, while the first category is great because it expands the depth.

Most of you most likely know me (if you do) by my work on the Homebrew Tier Compendium and its sub-projects. I'm thinking I would like to focus the next MUHA on NUbrew (or at least the last two categories, as subsystems are huge and those who can make them would have an unfair advantage). I was thinking of collecting a list of exemplary material for the participants to help them gain an idea of what they could all do (eventually ending up with a big enough list to form another compendium even, maybe). Heck, the original MUHA had some entries that were NUbrew, Amechra's entry being a great example of one that falls into the third category.

So this is basically an interest check: would you like to see another MUHA? Would you like to participate? Would you perhaps like to show off some NUbrew in this thread? Link to works you like, mechanically or fluffwise? Then come on right in.

THE CONTEST IS HERE!

[Temotei]

MY PROFESSION? Well, I've always wanted to be a judge.

[Xhosant]

Although largely complicated, on both validity and inception, I think it's interesting.

[ArcturusV]

Sounds pretty nifty. I'll toss my hat into that ring and pop something out.

[D20ragon]

Sounds good. I'm sub par at homebrew,but more unusual things are a plus

[Xaotiq1]

Color me interested! As long as my life doesn't crap on me; I'll be in!

[Pyromancer999]

I would be quite interested.

[ArcturusV]

Reminds me, since it's on the tangent of NUbrew (As far as I can tell) and that I'm horrible at estimating fair prices for things, link to and ask for a price check on two items I whipped up for a class. From my Elemental Paladins Project:

Fiery Vengeance: This weapon enchantment is the chosen weapon of a Champion of Flame. When used by a character without Champion of Flame levels this weapon operates as a +2 Flaming weapon of it's type. Fiery Vengeance weapons come in all forms and there is no "typical" weapon for a Champion of Flame's weapon to be.
In the hands of a Champion of Flame however the Fiery Vengeance is a +5 weapon. While wielding the Fiery Vengeance weapon the Champion of Flame Ember's Embrace deals two points of damage/healing for each point spent, and adds his Champion of Flame level again to his Smite Elemental Damage.

Brass Winged Armor: Brass Winged Armor is usually formed out of the metal of it's name, and if not bears ornamentation of said metal. Brass Winged Armor always however has two wings coming out of the armor near the shoulder blades, measuring a foot and a half in length, up swept from the shoulders and forged of fine brass.
This armor enchantment is meant for the Champion of Flame, and it is in his hands that this power truly takes effect. To those who do not have levels in Champion of Flame this armor functions as a +3 armor of it's appropriate type (Usually Plate, Half-Plate, or Field Plate, though it can be applied to any armor).
When worn by a Champion of Flame it functions as a +5 armor of it's type and gives the Champion of Flame an hour use of the ability On Wings of Fire. If the Champion of Flame already has this ability through class levels, the Champion of Flames gains a +20 feet increase to his fly speed while using On Wings of Fire.

I honestly don't know how much these Enchantments should be worth when tacked onto an item.

[Morph Bark]

MY PROFESSION? Well, I've always wanted to be a judge.

For what it's worth, of the many homebrewers, you'd certainly be part of my... pantheon.

Although largely complicated, on both validity and inception, I think it's interesting.

You're right on that. The original MUHA did not bar any sort of brew for it, but I was thinking of doing one without the usual things, as those have their own contests on GitP, and I wanted to see what wonderful things the minds of the brewers here could think up with that restriction.

If it doesn't turn out well, lacks severely in entries/popularity, then no potential follow-up MUHAs will have this restriction. (And if it does turn out well, then the potential follow-up MUHAs may still lack it, as we'll switch things up for each one!)

Reminds me, since it's on the tangent of NUbrew (As far as I can tell) and that I'm horrible at estimating fair prices for things, link to and ask for a price check on two items I whipped up for a class. From my Elemental Paladins Project:

*snip*

I honestly don't know how much these Enchantments should be worth when tacked onto an item.

Reading over these, I'm reminded of some non-unique magic weapons that have variable effects, such as the Holy Avenger in Core. Perhaps an analysis of the costs of that weapon will really help you in finding the cost for these.


Looks like a fair bit of good interest so far. Thanks guys! I'll poke around for some other people suitable for judging, if they may be willing. I'm also thinking of perhaps expanding this contest to Minmaxboards, to give it some extra views and participants, but I won't do that if possibly entrants from GitP are opposed to it.

[Milo v3]

I'm guessing the previous judges would be replaced by a new selection? Though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the previous ones are judges again.

[Felyndiira]

I really like the NUBrew category idea. I do think that it's only fair to include new systems, though, for the following reasons:

• They are very difficult to complete, so anyone who can create a complex system deserves any unfair advantages they may get. Simple systems does not have unfair advantages anyway.
• Complex systems are allowed in existing competitions anyway. Someone can attach a new magic system to a base class, for example.
• Thie third category can already get really huge depending on what it is.

I have an idea for #3 (things that lie completely outside of official material), but I would like to see all three categories be included. #2 is heavily limited, and #3 is unconventional and not for everyone, so having systems in the competition will greatly broaden its scope and allow for more interest.

[Just to Browse]

If I'm going to write a subsystem, I need at least 1 school break. So, maybe 2-3 months wait time for submissions, because it's hard enough as-is to write within the lines of the crazy that is 3.x.

My problem is that I have an idea for a subsystem, but tying that to a theme is unlikely (by virtue of the sheer number of themes out there). To follow that, writing a system based off a theme seems awfully restrictive. It jives with me for Base/Pr classes, but whole subsystems feels unnecessarily preventative. Of course several were written anyways, so maybe that's just me.

[AgentofHellfire]

Well, I'm not sure what this qualifies as, but I've really been wanting to go into detail about the theologies of the various core deities--doctrines, sects, holy texts...things of that nature. Hell, maybe I'll write Gruumsh's or Kord's bible.

If that's NUbrew, I'd be up for some of this.

[Seerow]

If I'm going to write a subsystem, I need at least 1 school break. So, maybe 2-3 months wait time for submissions, because it's hard enough as-is to write within the lines of the crazy that is 3.x.

My problem is that I have an idea for a subsystem, but tying that to a theme is unlikely (by virtue of the sheer number of themes out there). To follow that, writing a system based off a theme seems awfully restrictive. It jives with me for Base/Pr classes, but whole subsystems feels unnecessarily preventative. Of course several were written anyways, so maybe that's just me.

I agree time is a big factor. The sorts of things mentioned in the OP are major projects, and not the sort of thing that can be done quickly.

That said, if this does happen it could be the kick in the pants I need to get to work on the new magic item subsystem I've had stewing in the back of my mind for the last year or two.

[Temotei]

Well, I'm not sure what this qualifies as, but I've really been wanting to go into detail about the theologies of the various core deities--doctrines, sects, holy texts...things of that nature. Hell, maybe I'll write Gruumsh's or Kord's bible.

If that's NUbrew, I'd be up for some of this.

That would almost certainly qualify.

Of course, you'll probably want to call the books something else so they're not connected to a real-world religion, but it's up to you, I reckon. It is basically unrelated homebrew even if it shares a name.

[Morph Bark]

Well, I'm not sure what this qualifies as, but I've really been wanting to go into detail about the theologies of the various core deities--doctrines, sects, holy texts...things of that nature. Hell, maybe I'll write Gruumsh's or Kord's bible.

If that's NUbrew, I'd be up for some of this.

That would almost certainly qualify.

Of course, you'll probably want to call the books something else so they're not connected to a real-world religion, but it's up to you, I reckon. It is basically unrelated homebrew even if it shares a name.

It certainly would qualify, under the assumption that you'll include mechanics for various things in amongst the fluff.

I believe the non-class entries in the first MUHA had a lot of fluff to them as well, but very well tied to their mechanics.

I agree time is a big factor. The sorts of things mentioned in the OP are major projects, and not the sort of thing that can be done quickly.

That said, if this does happen it could be the kick in the pants I need to get to work on the new magic item subsystem I've had stewing in the back of my mind for the last year or two.

The other contests here usually have 4-6 weeks of submission time. MUHA, due to its wider and deeper scope, is closer to 8.

I'll send out some pokes to people to ask if they want to judge (and if not, if they want to participate), if they have the time of course. Considering in the last 48 hours there has been no complaint about also doing this simultaneously on Minmaxboards, I'll post a thread there later to do an interest check. (But if I do it there as well, and a person wins on one board, the best entry on the other will of course get an honourable mention at the very least.) Once judges are found, I'll post the thread and turn this one into the chat thread.

Considering most of the coming months are filled with holidays (at least their last weeks), I'd make it last at least 2 months, so likely have the end date as 8 January at the earliest. What do you folks think?

[ArcturusV]

Sounds good to me. Plenty of time with stretches between and after the holidays.

[Just to Browse]

The sooner you start, the better.

[Avalon®]

I think I might toss my hat into the ring if this interests me.

[Kazyan]

Perhaps there should be two divisions in MUHA: One for subsystems and other large works, and another for the small miscellaneous NUbrew. Having only subsystems as NUbrew would get overwhelming fast.

[unbeliever536]

Would additional magic items inspired by some less-used items in the dmg qualify (eg, variations on the Apparatus of Kilwash?).

[Morph Bark]

Would additional magic items inspired by some less-used items in the dmg qualify (eg, variations on the Apparatus of Kilwash?).

As a set you mean? Sure, sounds good. Figuring up a story around them would boost it for sure.

Essentially, it will be graded on Fluff, Mechanical Balance and Originality, among other things. I'm not sure what the other things are yet, but the original MUHA was graded on four things and I forgot the fourth.

[Temotei]

As a set you mean? Sure, sounds good. Figuring up a story around them would boost it for sure.

Essentially, it will be graded on Fluff, Mechanical Balance and Originality, among other things. I'm not sure what the other things are yet, but the original MUHA was graded on four things and I forgot the fourth.

Objective, balance, flavor, and originality were the four.

[Morph Bark]

A good question was asked over in the Minmaxboards iteration of this thread:

How does the new subsystem thing work, given the "no classes" stricture? Does it have to be accessible only through feats, items, and skill points, or via some entirely new mechanism?

A good question, and one I have admittedly not given as much thought as the rest. However, a subsystem can exist without classes, even if it is only accessible through classes. For instance, if you take out the classes out of ToB or ToM, you still have very clear subsystems. The only problems you then have are at what level the abilities in the subsystem are appropriate at (though ToB makes that very clear through initiator level rules outlined outside of the classes), and some miscellaneous things, such as ToB's maneuver recovery methods.

Perhaps I'll have to adjust my explanation for that category that such entries may need a "skeleton class" of sorts. One without class features, BAB, saves, HD, skills and proficiencies, but with some basic ways a class could utilise the subsystem, at what class level the various abilities of the subsystem are appropriate, and so on. Basically, the Binder's list of at what level he gains which level of Vestige, at what levels he can bind more, and the mechanics of binding the vestige that are in the class. Or the Warblade's recovery method, and how many Maneuvers Readied/Maneuvers Known/Stances Known he has at each level, and which disciplines he has access to. Only the absolute necessities of the class that deal purely with the subsystem.


Considering this idea is very new, this first use of it would be sort of a test run, and for all we know there might be entries with subsystems that don't even require a skeleton class of this sort.

Objective, balance, flavor, and originality were the four.

Ahh, thank you. Well, considering the Objective in this iteration would basically be "make some NUbrew" and other things aren't allowed in, I guess we'll only have three things to grade on. For future potential incarnations of MUHA, there will be certain themes again such as for the first, but before then I want to see what there is to show, what there is to offer, and what place NUbrew could have in contests.

[ArcturusV]

Other odd question: Limit on entries or something? I imagine there is one, only because it seems most contests are One Entry Only. But hell, long duration to this contest. I might want to cook up quite a few different things, weapons, enhancements, spells, feats, subsystems, etc.

[Morph Bark]

Other odd question: Limit on entries or something? I imagine there is one, only because it seems most contests are One Entry Only. But hell, long duration to this contest. I might want to cook up quite a few different things, weapons, enhancements, spells, feats, subsystems, etc.

I will likely discuss that with the other judges first, but right now I'm thinking I'd be okay with that on the condition that they all fit together as a coherent whole, mechanically/fluff-wise. They would still be considered only one entry, however*, and it'd be up to the participants to decide whether that would make their entry better or worse.


*This rule may change in some future iterations of MUHA. The rules of the contest are solidly set for each iteration, but may change between them. That's what makes it the Mixed Ultimate Homebrew Arts competition.

[Morph Bark]

PMs have been sent out to potential judges, so far I've got three definite ones, once I've got a fourth (and possibly a fifth) I'll post the threads and we can begin!

[ArcturusV]

Sweet, can't wait to get started.

[Xhosant]

Does an overhaul of Craft(trapmaking) into a non-craft, more usable-on-the-move skill qualify?

It always bugged me how long it took to set a green tripwire in dense foliage.

[Epsilon Rose]

A question: 2 years ago, I had the idea for an overhaul of the magic system. I sort-of started it, but never actually did anything with it. There's been a skeleton of it posted on these forums since then. Would actually finishing that be a valid entry?

If you want to see what's actually been done with it, it's the Magic System Fix linked in my sig (and here). There will be some changes from the mechanics outlined in that post.