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View Poll Results: do you prefer a high threat range or a high multiplier for crits

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  • high threat range

    82 78.10%
  • high multiplier

    23 21.90%
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Thread: crit prefrence

  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default crit prefrence

    do you prefer a high multiplier or a high threat range?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Miles Invictus's Avatar

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    A high threat range is better. Two 2x criticals do 33% more damage than one 3x critical.

    For me, base damage > threat range > crit multiplier.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Threat range. For me, threat range > crit multiplier > base damage. At 20th level, it doesn't matter if you do 2d4 or 1d12 but whether you do x3 or x4 on criticals does matter.

    I just prefer falchion+improved critical(or keen)+bless weapon, so that fourth of all my rolls (a bit less than half of all the hits that hit) deal double damage. :P
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    It seems I'm the only one who sees the usefulness of a good coup de gras...

    x3 crit for me.
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Threat range, obviously. Sure, 1 in 20 sounds probable, but in an actual game, how often does it actually happen, and confirmed? Blah. Of course, at 19-20 vs. 20 x3 I usually don't care. Just choose which is the better weapon on other traits. It takes at least 18-20 for me to start paying attention to threat range.
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Where the average damage multiplication is the same (i.e. 19-20 = x3, 18-20 = x4) I like the larger range, because it's more consistent.

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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyserpent View Post
    It seems I'm the only one who sees the usefulness of a good coup de gras...

    x3 crit for me.
    my halberd just got a little more useful. as if setting it against a charge, two types of damage or dropping it to avoid being tripped aren't enough.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Heh. That is a good reason to bring along a heavy-critting-at-all-costs weapon.

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    I prefer a higher multiplier. In my experience, a x2 multiplier isn't all that much. When I deal out a crit, I want it to hit hard.

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    0.05 x 3 x X = 0.15X

    0.1 x 2 x X = 0.2X

    Only in cases where you need a 20 to hit is [20 /x3] on average better than [19-20 /x2] as far as I can see. I'm probably missing something, though.
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Keen scythes are the place you should be going. Sure its not as good as a keen scimitar of falchion, but its times four crits. Times four people!

    Ahem, but overall an improved crit range will lead to more over all damage since you will get critical hits more regularly.

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Keen scythes are the place you should be going. Sure its not as good as a keen scimitar of falchion, but its times four crits. Times four people!

    Ahem, but overall an improved crit range will lead to more over all damage since you will get critical hits more regularly.
    Er. Actually. A keen scythe is exactly as good as a keen scimitar or falchion. x4 = 18-20 x2; each adds 3 times regular damage over 20 rolls. 19-20 x4 adds 6 times regular damage over 20 rolls; 15-20 x2 does the same.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Bears with Lasers is right. When you compare crits, you should only look at the extra damage you deal. The figures get skewed if you include normal damage in your calculations.

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Herman View Post
    Bears with Lasers is right.

    Yeah. That's something of a status quo around here.

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Not sure about that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Where the average damage multiplication is the same (i.e. 19-20 = x3, 18-20 = x4) I like the larger range, because it's more consistent.
    [19-20 /x2] is better than [20 /x3], as far as I can see... but maybe I'm missing something.

    0.1 x 2 x X = 0.2X
    0.05 x 3 x X = 0.15X

    [18-20/ x2] appears to be better than [20/ x4]

    0.15 x 2 x X = 0.3X
    0.05 x 4 x X = 0.2X

    I'm probably misreading you, do you mean expanding the crit range is the same as adding multiplication bonuses?
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-01-04 at 06:48 AM.
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    No, it's not. Remember, you shouldn't count the normal damage. Only the extra damage you deal on a crit. A x2 modifier means 1x extra damage. x3 is 2x extra damage. 19-20 gives 1x extra damage on two rolls, and x3 give 2x extra damage on one roll.

  17. - Top - End - #17

    Default Re: crit prefrence

    That's right. On an 18, a rapier deals double damage, but a scythe still deals single damage. On three rolls--18, 19, and 20--the falchion will do six times its normal damage--3*2(multiplier)*[regular damage]*
    Meanwhile, on those same three rolls, a scythe will do the same damage: 2*[regular damage] (for 18 and 19)+4*[regular damage] (on a 20) = 6*[regular damage].

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    I see, that makes better sense, then.

    20/ x3 [0.05 x 2 x X]

    19-20/ x2 [0.1 x 1 x X]

    18-20/ x2 [0.15 x 1 x X]

    20/ x4 [0.05 x 3 x X]

    Doesn't that mean that, strictly speaking, the increase in multiplier is better, since it works out better when you need 20?
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Basically, yes. When you have to hit numbers above your crit threat range, higher multiplier is better.

    That doesn't come up particularily often, though.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I see, that makes better sense, then.

    20/ x3 [0.05 x 2 x X]

    19-20/ x2 [0.1 x 1 x X]

    18-20/ x2 [0.15 x 1 x X]

    20/ x4 [0.05 x 3 x X]

    Doesn't that mean that, strictly speaking, the increase in multiplier is better, since it works out better when you need 20?
    so... Commoners with scythes and bless weapon?
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    More like Kobolds with Axes, Spears, Hammers or Picks - Swords, Scimitars, Flails and such are out for smashing Adventurers
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-01-04 at 07:06 AM.
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Look at it this way. Let's take Grim the Scythe and Bob the Falchion are two fighter identical in every way except for their weapon of choice. The two are currently in two identical rooms fighting two identical monsters. They both do an average of 20 points of damage on a successful hit, and against this monster, each needs a roll of 17 or better to hit.

    When Grim rolls a 17, 18, or 19, he deals 20 hp worth of damage. When he rolls a 20, he need to confirm. He has a 80% chance of dealing 20 hp of damage and a 20% chance to slash for 80. On average, Grim does 32 hp of damage on a natural 20. Assuming 20 attacks where he rolls every d20 number once (he's taking 20), Grim will deal about 92 points of damage.

    Now for Bob. On a 17, he deals 20 hp of damage. On a 18, 19, or 20, he has a 80% chance of dealing his normal 20 hp of damage and a 20% chance of critting for a more immpressive 40. So, his average damage when rolling in his threat range is 24 hp. Over twenty attacks, the average damage for Bob should then be 20+24+24+24 = 92 points of damage.

    Conclusion: With regards to damage, 18-20/x2 is the same as 20/x4. In the same way, 19-20/x2 is the same as 20/x3.


    However, there are situations where one is better than the other.

    Situation #1: Let's supposed that, after 20 rounds, the monsters are both reduced to 30 hp. A normal hit won't be enough to bring them down, but even a x2 critical will win the fight. In this case, Bob has a 20% to kill the monster on his next attack, but only a natural 20 will allow Grim to defeat the monster in one swing. His critical's 80 points of damage is overkill. Anything beyond 40 doesn't change anything and is simply wasted. Against low hp critters that can be defeated with a x2 critical, high threat range is much better than a high multiplier.

    Situation #2: Grim and Bob come face to face with new monsters. They still need a roll of 17 or better to hit. Luckilly for them, the wizard henchmen finally catch up with them and both successfully cast Hold Monster. Grim and Bob can each deal one coup de grace before the monsters break free. Bob hits automatically for 40 hp of damage and forces the monster to make a DC 50 Fortitude check to survive. The monster is a real powerhouse and has a 50% chance to make this save! Grim also hits automatically, but for 80 hp of damage, and forces a DC 90 Fortitude save. The monster dies unless it rolls a natural 20. With Coups de grace and other situtations where a critical is automatic, a high multiplier is much better than a high threat range.

    The same goes in situtations where only a natural 20 will hit. Bob would have a 1/400 chance to deal 40 hp of damage. (average damage of 21 over 20 rolls). Grim has the same 1/400 chance to deal 80 hp of damage (average damage of 23 over 20 rolls).
    Last edited by Borris; 2007-01-04 at 07:27 AM.

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Man, screw all that math jive. I just prefer quantity over quality. More crits = more fun!


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  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Ah El J their argument is
    Über crits = über fun.
    Though I personally prefer the dependability of a falchion, I must admit I long to do super smashy damage with a scythe of doom.
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyserpent View Post
    It seems I'm the only one who sees the usefulness of a good coup de gras...
    "Strike of Fat?"

    I assume you mean coup de grace.
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Quote Originally Posted by Charity View Post
    Ah El J their argument is
    Über crits = über fun.
    Though I personally prefer the dependability of a falchion, I must admit I long to do super smashy damage with a scythe of doom.
    Nah, my argument is dumping Criticals Hits makes for more fun... for me, this is just one more reason to either make Critical Hits of one type or dump them altogether. I'm leaning towards the latter these days (but obviously you couldn't just dump criticals for 3.x without changing a bunch of other things)
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-01-04 at 07:59 AM.
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Hmm...crit preferences...
    It depends. Are we talking about using a weapon with crit-activated abilities in combat, or are we talking about CDGing helpless foes?
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    I actually like the higher multiplier for two main reasons. First a 20 will always hit and just because you threaten a crit on an 18 doesn't mean it goes past the AC. I love that a 20 always hits and I know you still have to confirm (which is why feats that give bonuses to confirm are nice). the second reason is because the higher multiplier reminds me of the thief's backstab ability from previous editions of the game.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    For me, this largely depends on the character I'm playing. Some characters just seem like 'the type' to wield certain weapons. The characters aren't aware of the mechanical properties of weapons but are typically aware that certain weapons are just "vicious/scary" (x3 & x4) or "accurate" (19-20 & 18-20)

    Still, I almost never use x3 crit.mod. weapons with the exception of the katar. I vastly prefer weapons with the x4 modifier such as the infamous scythe and the somewhat under-represented military picks. Still, you have to respect the sheer dependability and availability of the longsword.

    That said, I'm voting for the higher multiplier - I like criticals to be dramatic!

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: crit prefrence

    Quote Originally Posted by pestilenceawaits View Post
    I actually like the higher multiplier for two main reasons. First a 20 will always hit and just because you threaten a crit on an 18 doesn't mean it goes past the AC. I love that a 20 always hits and I know you still have to confirm (which is why feats that give bonuses to confirm are nice). the second reason is because the higher multiplier reminds me of the thief's backstab ability from previous editions of the game.

    Well, if you are the main combatant and rolling 19 won't hit, you would be better to run.
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