BBEG motivation and tactics

[jguy]

I'm coming up with a BBEG and I'd like to troubleshoot some ideas with the people of this forum and get some feedback.

The BBEG is a half-elf wizard who specializes in conjuring and summoning outsiders. He found that his status of a half-elf left his life in turmoil and eventually he traveled to the elemental plane of earth where he found he really loved the steadiness of it all. He married a Shaiten genie, royalty in fact, and settled down. Years pass and adventurers invaded his home in search of the vast wealth it held. They were driven off and his wife was severally injured though she lived.

He wanted revenge but he felt that it wouldn't solve anything in the long term. He figured he would need to change the inequality of the Material Plane that drives people to such extreme lengths for wealth and bring some stability to the plane. He plans on starting by establishing footholds in the material plane using some morally questionable means then flood the market with wealth such as gold, silver, and adamantine. He knows this will destabilize the economy but he plans on stepping in using proxies in many places to run everything when the dust settles. Further down the road he hopes to partially merge the Elemental Plane of Earth with the material plane to bring some stability to everything.

The guy is level 15 and the party is starting at level 5. Is there any consequences I should take into account while planning this campaign out?

[The Oni]

In terms of the dude's forces? I'd guess he's got earth elemental, earth-subtype critters, maybe even genies to serve as his combat forces, but also a pretty intricate spy network and some friends in high places.

"Stability" and "security" seems to be a big theme for this guy so if he has minions they're probably highly disciplined and augmented with shield enchantments and the like. He himself would probably be big on shield spells and "heavy artillery" strategies, maybe summoning walls to defend himself before hurling high-damage spells and such at the party.

He strikes me as a bit Red in his tendencies so if he's particularly preachy, have him confront the adventurers with a golem made of gold, adamantine and other precious metals that he may crush them with their own greed.

[Tim Proctor]

I agree with Lord Smeagle, crush them with their own greed seems the way to go.

I'd look a binder/malconvoker build to identify what he's capable of, and such... obviously wealth isn't an issue for him so he's be able to buy whatever he wanted, etc. and have years to plan his revenge. So I'd look at the near infinite levels of certain spells, wish, etc. and from there you'd have a good build.

I think the biggest things he can do are 1) destroy the economic system so that players have to trade/barter for goods directly (meaning that people have to both want what they players have and have what the players want, much harder), 2) attacking adventuring groups because they are the ones that raided his realm, 3) blocking adventuring groups abilities to redeem goods through dungeon crawls and such by making them much much harder and buying all of the goods that could challenge him, etc. etc.

If he wants 1) revenge and 2) to stop murderhobo raiding, and 3) peace then I think you have a quality BBEG (that isn't that evil but his priorities are out of whack).

[jguy]

Urdefhan were going to be basic troops in the beginning though a bit rethemed for a more earth feel. I just like the kit and they still work well in hordes. Same with Howlers.

Hadn't thought of a Spy Network but considering he is a high level mage and denizens of the earth plane can meld into stone at will for the most part, it would make a lot of sense. I do really enjoy the idea of a gold golem as a hubris thing.

How do I represent flooding the market with gold? The early bases will have a good amount of gold that was being prepared to go to farmers and other peasants. Should later in the campaign I say that the party has found X gold but it is only worth Y amount due to flooding? To represent change?

[The Oni]

I would say that would be excellent exposition.

Alchemist: "Why yes we have Cure Light Wounds potions that'll be 2000 gold..."

Party:

Also the urdefhan seem like they'd be cool, what with all those coins hanging off of them and the sweet swords, but how do they tie into the earth thing? Doesn't seem like earth elementals would have much need for blood drain - unless maybe they need Material Plane Lifeforce to stick around or they'll be pulled back to the Plane of Earth?

[jguy]

Actually I had forgotten about the blooddrain portion of their abilities but that would work perfectly actually. The BBEG had to go for a large mass of troops to make up the bulk of his army but to do so it was a tenuous hold on the plane. The Draining is what is keeping them around, the amount they need is simply Plot. I can still keep the damage as negative energy because I can say they hale from where the Earth Plane and the Negative Energy plane meet. Even explains the random Acid Resist they have.

[Tim Proctor]

How do I represent flooding the market with gold? The early bases will have a good amount of gold that was being prepared to go to farmers and other peasants. Should later in the campaign I say that the party has found X gold but it is only worth Y amount due to flooding? To represent change?

Well there are two aspects to this, 1st is that no item over 15,000 should be able to be found because the BBEG bought it. 2nd is that everything is now 10x the normal amount. You'd have to do it in stages, like from levels 5-8 the prices and everything increase, and start being purchased. He probably wouldn't get completion until lvl 10. So they'd have to quest for relics or weapons of legacy instead of store bought goods, which is a good thing IMO.

[The Oni]

^ Naturally if you get that far towards hyperinflation it's going to imply impending economic collapse. You should expect high crime rates in any sizable city, maybe even have the last city you visit before the Very Definitely Final Boss Fight actually falling to unrest and revolution.

Also this whole money theme you've got going on means you can pick some really cool campaign names. "Blood Money." "The Price of Revenge." "The Root of All Evil."

[Tim Proctor]

^ Naturally if you get that far towards hyperinflation it's going to imply impending economic collapse. You should expect high crime rates in any sizable city, maybe even have the last city you visit before the Very Definitely Final Boss Fight actually falling to unrest and revolution.

I don't know if I agree with that, but definitely a higher class antagonism, and you can think of things like the USD to Indian rupee as an example of how things would change. People can still live, economies and societies are generally really good at keeping people from revolting. However, that may be a plot of the BBEG to incite riots and turmoil in which case that would happen.

The big thing I would say is that this BBEG doesn't make his presence known in that case and has agents work his bidding, and attempts to subvert the authorities of the governments.

[The Oni]

I would guess it depends on the timescale. 10x inflation isn't a huge deal over the course of several years, but if it happens over the course of a few months, the effects will be a lot more dramatic.

So, if you're the BBEG, wait until inflation gets really high, then have your rabble-rousers start rallying the partisan armies. It would take a while for it to happen on its own but if the BBEG is clever and prepared, he can force a class confrontation much sooner. While the city is in chaos, hit the palaces directly with your Earth-plane shock troops. If they can Meld Into Stone they can come up right through the floors, seize the castles and off the nobles while the battle rages outside.

[Slipperychicken]

then flood the market with wealth such as gold, silver, and adamantine. He knows this will destabilize the economy

So this guy's entire scheme hinges on the fact that he has a good enough grasp of economics to inflate/crash the value of precious metals, but material-planes governments and investors don't have the sense to simply switch over to different currencies once they realize what's happening?


Besides, plenty of real-world governments were able to exist for some time under hyperinflation. Even Germany remained standing when prices doubled every two days and its currency was used as wallpaper. Even then, many governments simply hit the "reset button" by issuing a new currency. In the OP's example, that would just mean switching to some other precious item which couldn't be found on the Plane of Earth.

[The Oni]

So this guy's entire scheme hinges on the fact that he has a good enough grasp of economics to inflate/crash the value of precious metals, but material-planes governments and investors don't have the sense to simply switch over to different currencies once they realize what's happening?

This is a fair point. In order for the scheme to work as designed, you'd have to prevent one or more governments from making the switch. Possibly by buying/impersonating a noble or other government official and blocking efforts to switch the currency? This is much harder to do in a monarchy than a democratic society, mind you.

[Tim Proctor]

Well that only works to a degree, and this relies on the BBEG rather than just pouring gold into the middle of town, shows up with gold and starts building an empire. Say he has 40 billion worth of assets the kingdom is most likely to be happy about the gain of 4 billion in taxes and the increase in their economy. So there is an economic disadvantage to this happening, furthermore it makes trade with other kingdoms nigh impossible. So if he's smart about it, the system will be corrupted before its exchangeable.

However, in the event that a kingdom says 'no we now use clamshells' all he has to do is literally dump more into public before the conversion (literally mounds of gold in town squares) while the government attempts to convert the money. Once that happens the inflation between the gold versus clamshells will be so high and so outrageous that people will revolt. If there is not a conversion (meaning the kingdom doesn't take people's gold and give them clamshells) and its just a 'your money is worthless' then people will revolt and kill them.

The only weakness is in the middle ground areas, I would suggest that the BBEG infiltrated the material plane on many aspects mainly through a mining corporation that always finds the biggest and best veins and has found unsurmounted success while their enemies have had cave collapses. The source of the growing economy within kingdoms highly depends on those mineral mines.

[jguy]

I think I forgot to mention that I had an idea for class warfare to be another major theme in the campaign. It is never the rich and successful that need to go murderhoboing, it is the poor and destitute that need to go for the high risk-high reward job of being an adventurer. I don't know my history too well but I am going for what happened in Russia where all the poor common folk overthrew the monarchy and established communism or something to that effect. Also I like the hypocrisy of the BBEG trying to establish communism and economic equality through out the lang while he himself is a very powerful wizard who is married into royalty.

I like the mining operation idea where he controls the largest one and sabotages the competition so he can control the flow of money even more. It gives me a hook for the players to start with. Any ideas on player motivation to stop all of this or at least investigate further? My main idea was they were a mercenary/adventure group and this threatened their way of life.

[Mastikator]

Maybe the BBEG also tries to hunt down adventurers specifically in addition to changing society so they won't re-emerge. If murder-hoboing is a prominent way of life in this world then they adventurers should know about each other, sort of like how "hunters" in Supernatural have a secret society. Suddenly they find out that all of their pals are dropping like flies and they have to face some overly powerful foe that tries to take them out of the game very early on. The adventurers become more and more hunted as time goes on, while the world is falling into the abyss they become fugitives.

[jguy]

I will have to take that into mind. I do like the 'Supernatural hunter society' thing so I will have to make a note of that.

Question. How do I handle WBL for these guys in the later portion of the game? I know as a player I hate it when I am loot starved yet still fighting equal CR enemies because it really nerfs fighters and other martial characters. Should I simply have less fluid treasure like gold and more actual items laying around? They wouldn't be able to sell virtually anything in the later end of the campaign due to the economic crash. Should I make a point to my players to get Ancestral Relic feat?

[Mastikator]

Depends. How is the extra gold and other precious metals entering the market? The closer you are to the extra gold being added the less adversely affected you are. The inflation won't occur until after the gold has circulated a bit, but before the poorest in society get their hands on it.
WBL will be over time less useful. If you're looking for the PCs to really feel the hyperinflation make each time they gain a level gold loses 20% of its value, meaning they lose 20% of their accumulated wealth (in gold) but the increase in loot they can get also increases by some 20-25%. Try to drive home that the more money they are getting, the less value they're actually getting. Since you have said that its usually the poor who go out murderhoboing the PCs should be poor and therefore feel the brunt force of what hyperinflation does. They'll be way beyond WBL on paper, but they'll be poorer than ever.

[Radar]

(...) Also I like the hypocrisy of the BBEG trying to establish communism and economic equality through out the lang while he himself is a very powerful wizard who is married into royalty.

It doesn't have to be hypocritical - he might really be concerned with the good of people and just go about it in the most ruthless possible way.

I like the mining operation idea where he controls the largest one and sabotages the competition so he can control the flow of money even more. It gives me a hook for the players to start with. Any ideas on player motivation to stop all of this or at least investigate further? My main idea was they were a mercenary/adventure group and this threatened their way of life.

Other mining companies might hire them to investigate weird happenings at their sites (miners vanishing, tunnels colapsing for no good reason, etc.), or hire them to do a little industrial espionage on that new insanely prosperous mining company. You can then drop hints, that this suspicious, lucky mine is related to other similar ones throughout the world.

Question. How do I handle WBL for these guys in the later portion of the game? I know as a player I hate it when I am loot starved yet still fighting equal CR enemies because it really nerfs fighters and other martial characters. Should I simply have less fluid treasure like gold and more actual items laying around? They wouldn't be able to sell virtually anything in the later end of the campaign due to the economic crash. Should I make a point to my players to get Ancestral Relic feat?

Barter trade is the way to go. They can also exchange items for favors: for example some schmuck will give them the Belt of Awesome, if they do this little job for him. You should still leave gold and other fluid assets around (even if only to point out, there is way too much of it in the world) - you just don't have to count it toward their WBL.

Keep in mind, that more gold, rubies, diamond and other such ingredients might mean cheap resurrections and possibly easier item crafting, so they might encounter more magic items later on (which will nicely balance out the uselessness of gold).

[jguy]

My initial thoughts were for agents of the BBEG to give out vasts amounts of gold to the common folk first, peasants, farmers, beggers ect ect, anonymously to the point where there is so much money circulating the prices skyrocket. At first this is great for the economy and no one thinks much of it but then the crash. Would that work or are there things I am not taking into account. Note, i am also not an economist, hence why I am asking help from the board.

[Mastikator]

If that is the case then it's basically the part of the population that was previously creating ALL the food takes a vacation and starts spending their newfound gold on various things they need, the merchants start raising all their prices, but since the farmers keep getting more gold the merchants soon end up with less and less stuff and more gold.
Furthermore food starts running out, this is bad for everybody, especially everyone that lives in a city or can't make food.
Mass starvation, people die by the hundreds of thousands, society breaks down and trade and even barter becomes uncommon since all there is is gold. People who can make food eventually go back to making food, at least the ones that are still alive, since raiders kill farmers for their food.
Society would jump back an epoch or two.

[jguy]

Hmm, not something I generally want unless BBEG plans on using that chaos to step in in the first place. How would a food shortage work in a world with magically created food and where you can get trail rations 3/day with a magical item that costs like 300g?

[Tim Proctor]

Well, D&D economies don't work as it is, at least because they are not fully fleshed out. So we need to make some blatant assumptions about the world in order for this style of stuff to work.

The 1st assumption is that there is a limited economy. You want to find out how big your assets are and your money market. Meaning X castles, keeps, swords, etc. and Y gold and gems. I would suggest 100 trillion as a value of assets in the world, and 100 bilion in money market.

The 2nd assumption is that magic has a limited economy. You don't want Wizards doing cheesy stuff in order to create 180 ft. spheres of diamonds and such 2 to three times a day. I would probably have some mechanism in place for hunting spellcasters that get out of hand.

The 3rd assumption is that the BBEG knows enough about this in order to manipulate it.

If he were smart he wouldn't start giving money away until after he hooked the kingdoms on it, established his business network, removed high-end items, and eliminated a portion of the competition. Once that happens he can start giving away all the gold to the poor, guards don't show up to work, the task masters overthrown, etc. He can also buy huge swaths of farmland and mine them (since he's porting them in from another plane as it is) and after a while destroyed the food production and will create mass starvation.

[jguy]

Considering this guy has had lots of time to work these things out, I could have him already firmly established in the world with business ventures he controls by proxy. Subtly removing high end materials from the world by buying it out and what not

[Nerd-o-rama]

Question. How do I handle WBL for these guys in the later portion of the game? I know as a player I hate it when I am loot starved yet still fighting equal CR enemies because it really nerfs fighters and other martial characters. Should I simply have less fluid treasure like gold and more actual items laying around?

Do this. It seems like the whole goal of this campaign is subvert the usual Adventurer MartTM feel in the game economy, where everything goes in a cycle of kill things->get loot->trade loot for what you actually need at 50% value->kill more things with you new loot.

As precious metal currency becomes more and more useless as a means of exchange, your players are going to need to learn to either work with what they get: "A +3 Guisarme? Well, I can't trade it and it's better than what I've got, let's do this thing."

or play the barter economy: "Hey merchant, I have a case of Cure Light Wounds potions here I can swap for a Cloak of Resistance upgrade"

Be prepared for the player who decides to just gather up all this worthless gold and drop huge piles of it on enemies' heads, though. It will happen eventually.

[jguy]

okay, going to sum up the steps of his evil master plan and see if it makes sense.

Step 1.) Covertly buy up mines or start his own that are incredibly wealthy due to connections to the Plane of Earth while simultaneous sabotaging others so he has a corner on the market

Step 2.) Using this wealth he plants key figures through the world to spy/bribe people so he can influence society when he needs to.

Step 3.) Start buying out high end, rare and hard to make magic items to prevent adventurers from using them against him later. Perhaps he sends crafters into retirement simply from giving them enough wealth to stop making stuff.

Step 4.) Slowly start flooding the market with gold and other precious metals while same time assassinating would-be adventurers. Other option is to simply give them enough gold from the get-go to let them retire so there is no need to adventure.

Step 5.) More aggressively flood the market with wealth and use his political influence to keep the nobles/wealthy from changing wealth systems in hopes of economic/societal collapse.

Step 6.) Using his proxies he establishes a communistic society where there is no social classes and all are cared for equally.

Step x.) Throughout all of this he is working on ways to merge the Elemental Plane of Earth with the Material plane so it will influence the mind of people on a primal level to lean towards stability and security and giving him more of a foothold for his minions.

Anyone got suggestions/critiques on all of this?

[Tim Proctor]

Oh on a side note with the above, the notion that both parties need to have what the other wants, and want what the other has makes it very difficult especially when it comes to higher end goods. Gather Information will become a very important skill, and there will probably start to be Fixers to help people find stuff or someone that knows what they are looking for. I'd look at the hireling specialist rules in DMG II, and people will probably start working for food as the default commodity, so rations become an important aspect.

If he's looking to merge the planes, I am sure the PCs will find allies with the dissidents on the earth plane who don't want that to happen.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also it's kind of ironic that the BBEG wanting to promote stability and security is trying to implement an economic system developed in this world as being centered around continuous revolution against the status quo. It's Communism as envisioned by More (Utopia), rather than Marx, which is really interesting to me, as are Lawful villains who use controlled "Chaotic" circumstances to bring about what they want. I may just steal this idea one day.

[Bucky]

Possible points to include in the campaign:
*Silver ends up being worth more than gold at some point.
*An agent of the BBEG sends them on a quest for a reward of ~1000g each now and ~1 million paid out over the next year. If they accept the quest, the payments arrive on time, with the final payment being effectively a 2-ton gold paperweight.

Hmm, not something I generally want unless BBEG plans on using that chaos to step in in the first place. How would a food shortage work in a world with magically created food and where you can get trail rations 3/day with a magical item that costs like 300g?

1) The BBEG didn't necessarily intend to cause food distribution problems. But someone will inevitably be left without the means to buy food.
2) How many of those items are there in the world? Not enough to feed everyone, and they'll end up costing an absurd amount of gold if there is a famine. And if he's suborned the magic item crafters, he controls the supply of new ones.

[Slipperychicken]

If there is not a conversion (meaning the kingdom doesn't take people's gold and give them clamshells) and its just a 'your money is worthless' then people will revolt and kill them.

Governments know this, so that's more or less how they switch over IRL -they declare an exchange rate (for example 100 gold pieces =1 clamshell), then set up offices and such where they'll take the old currency and hand out the new one. So you can go down to the town hall with your 8 thousand in (now-worthless) gold and walk out with 80 clamshells instead. Obviously, the government would also start making its payments (to investors, contractors, employees, etc) in the new currency, in addition to declaring it as legal tender.


Honestly, assuming adequate printing technology/magic, I wouldn't be surprised if severe gold/precious-metals inflation caused governments to start issuing paper money instead.

[Mastikator]

Hmm, not something I generally want unless BBEG plans on using that chaos to step in in the first place. How would a food shortage work in a world with magically created food and where you can get trail rations 3/day with a magical item that costs like 300g?

I made a long post that was eaten by my shoddy internet connection. So I'll just post the short version. Which is that
1) 300gp is more than most peasants have, it's an astronomically inefficient way of making food.
2) gold, silver and other precious metals aren't wealth. A roof over your head and running water is. Giving gold to peasants doesn't increase their wealth even if it doesn't utterly destroy civilization.
Now, maybe the BBEG doesn't understand this, being a wizard who can just conjour up the basic necessities of life, and maybe this is why he's the BBEG and not the savior of the world. But you should be mindful of the fact that gold does not create wealth it represents the present wealth. (and no, it doesn't even stimulate an economy that is already at 100% work capacity)