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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    .


    He's a natural born leader






    He inspires his men








    He leads his army to victory - even at impossible odds











    The Warlord



    HD: d10
    {table=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Motivation, Battle Hardened Commander, Tactical Leader

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Renewed Effort

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Bonus Feat

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Compelling Oratory, Battlefield Study

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Assess The Enemy

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Tactical Opportunity

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Bonus Feat, Battle Rush (1 / encounter)

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Rallying Cry (swift oratory)

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Demoralizing Presence

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Dual Motivation

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Bonus Feat

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Rallying Cry (negate conditions)

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Join My Cause, Battle Rush (2 / encounter)

    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Indomitable Spirit

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus Feat

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Rallying Cry (immunity to conditions)

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Daunting Presence

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Motivation Trinity

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat, Battle Rush (3 / encounter)

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Supreme Commander

    [/table]



    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Warlords are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and all shields (except tower shields).


    Class skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Geography, History, Local, Nobility and Royalty), Listen, Perform (Oratory), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Swim.

    Skill points per level: 4 + Int-mod 




    Motivation (Ex)
    A warlord is a genius of warfare. He can always find the advantage in combat, and is exceptionally skillful at providing quick combat tips.
    A warlord's Motivation modifier starts at +1 at 1st level. At each odd level past first, this modifier increases by +1, to a maximum of the warlord’s Cha-modifier (minimum 1).
    Once per round, as a free action, a warlord may grant one of the following benefits to his allies (self included):
    - Motivation modifier to attack rolls (including combat maneuver, such as bull rush, trip or sunder)
    - 2 times Motivation modifier to damage scores
    - Motivation modifier to all saving throws
    - Motivation modifier to all skill checks among: Balance, Bluff (feinting only), Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Listen, Ride (invalid if the warlord is untrained), Spot and Swim.
    - Motivation modifier to physical ability check (choose one on the fly)
    - Motivation modifier to level check
    - Motivation modifier to dodge AC
    - Motivation modifier to damage reduction
    - 5' movement increase per Motivation modifier
    - 5 times Motivation modifier as Temporary HP
    - Spell resistance 10 + twice Motivation modifier + warlord's Cha-bonus. If the recipient already has SR, the effects overlap, making only the higher bonus count.
    - Motivation modifier to overcome SR

    To benefit from Motivation, an ally must be within 60' + 10' per three Warlord levels and must be able to hear the warlord.
    No matter the effect, Motivation is always added last, after all calculations are finalized, meaning it is never multiplied by any means.
    Regardless of the benefits applied to allies, a warlord may self-grant one additional bonus (this stems from not really needing to self-motivate).

    Motivation holds another benefit.
    By encouraging his allies/soldiers to stay alert, a group with a warlord gains his Motivation modifier to all Listen & Spot checks to avoid being surprised and to initiative rolls (only once, if the players roll initiative each round anew).


    Battle Hardened Commander (Ex)
    A warlord is more accustomed and mentally prepared to the din of battle than most others, and a good leader knows how to convey such notions to his soldiers and allies.
    A warlord gains his Cha-bonus to Will saves vs. all sorts of combat associated mental influence, such as enchantment & compulsion spells and effects, as well as opposed skill checks to counter Bluff, Intimidate & Sleight of Hand.
    Furthermore, as long as the warlord is not helpless or dead, all allies within line of sight share this benefit with him.


    Tactical Leader (Ex)
    A warlord excels at teamwork.
    At 1st level, a warlord gains 3 teamwork benefits (HoB, p115). which he can train others within 2-days training periods instead of 1-week periods.
    At 2nd level and each level thereafter, a warlord gains an additional teamwork benefit for reduced training periods.
    Furthermore, any ally adjacent to the warlord (or an ally within reach) at the beginning of the his turn automatically gain the benefits of a single feat of the warlord’s choice (from his feats repertoire). All affected allies gain the benefits of the same feat.


    Renewed Effort (Ex)
    As a standard action that doesn’t provoke AoOs, a 2nd level warlord may grant an ally (self included) a renewed saving throw (augmented by the warlord’s Motivation modifier) to thwart an ongoing temporary physical effect or a mental effect. An ally must be able to hear the warlord in order to benefit from Renewed Effort.
    Renewed Effort may only be applied once per effect.


    Bonus Feat
    At 3rd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a warlord gains a bonus feat.
    A warlord’s bonus feat must be taken from the list of feats tagged as “Fighter bonus feat”.
    Every time a warlord gains a bonus feat, he may qualify for a combat feat by having an ability score or skill rank lower than the actual requirement by a cumulative -1. Also, his relevant stat actually counts as higher if and when that score has implications on the feat’s effectiveness (e.g. Manyshot)


    Compelling Oratory (Ex)
    A veteran warlord draws confidence from his men and knows how to project that confidence back at them.
    Starting at 4th level, 3 + Cha-mod times per day, while you are not in combat, you may give a rousing speech to your allies, inspiring them and convincing them that you will succeed at whatever task you must perform. Each allied creature who can see and/or hear you is cured of Fatigued condition (or has Exhaustion reduced to Fatigued) and gains a number of temporary hit points equal to your Warlord level + your Cha-bonus. These temporary hit points remain until they are expended, or until that ally falls asleep.
    After making a Compelling Oratory, the warlord becomes immune to fear until the effect wears off.


    Battlefield Study (Ex)
    A 4th level warlord may study a site where creatures did battle and learn about what took place there with amazing accuracy and uncanny insight. This ability requires 10 minutes and may be used on one corpse or 10' radius area at a time. Using this ability on a corpse is similar to the Speak With Dead spell except that the effect can only provide answers to questions related to the fighting that took place immediately before the creature's death (the ability fails if the warlord tries to use it on a creature that did not die from violence). Using this ability on an area is similar to the Stone Tell spell except that the effect cannot reveal information about anything covered or concealed in the area and only reveals information about the most recent violence done in the area.


    Assess the Enemy
    A 5th level warlord has battled against a multitude of foes, and learned to identify them quickly.
    The warlord's level counts as the number of ranks in any Knowledge skill for the purpose of identifying creatures to gain strategic advantage and in planning for a large battle (Heroes of Battle), and a warlord always counts as trained in any such knowledge check. This does not apply to any other aspect of Knowledge and does not stack with actual ranks in any of the various Knowledge skills.
    These special skill checks are modified by Wis instead of Int.


    Tactical Opportunity (Ex)
    Starting at 6th level, as a swift or immediate action, a warlord may grant a single ally (self included) with one of the following:
    - A bonus AoO, up to a maximum a character would gain via Combat Reflexes or the warlord's Motivation modifier (whichever's higher).
    - An immediate 5'-step.
    - Make an ally not provoke an AoO when they otherwise would.
    - An immediate move action during the ally's turn.
    To benefit from Tactical Opportunity, an ally must be within 60' + 10' per three Warlord levels and must be able to hear the warlord.
    In addition, once per round, a warlord may grant one of the above to himself as a free action.


    Battle Rush (Ex)
    Starting at 7th level, once per encounter, as a swift or immediate action, a warlord may either grant a single ally (self included) an extra standard action or grant all allies an immediate move action.
    An extra standard action is only applicable for combat maneuvers on the battlefield. It may not by utilized for spellcasting or for the activation of (Su), (Sp) or (Ps) abilities.
    At 13th level and each 6 levels thereafter, a warlord may use this ability once more per encounter.


    Rallying Cry (Ex)
    Starting at 8th level, as a swift action, a warlord may give off a loud battle cry that lift his allies' spirit when he attacks.
    This is an alternative means of utilizing the benefits of Compelling Oratory.
    Starting at 12th level, conditions associated with sleep, charm & fear are removed from all allies (self included in case the warlord is shaken).
    Starting at 16th level, all allies also become immune to sleep, charm & fear until the end of the encounter.


    Demoralizing Presence (Ex)
    A 9th level warlord's presence on the battlefield is so potent that his enemies can't help but notice.
    All enemies who enter the warlord's range of Motivation must make a successful level check as if the warlord has targeted each of them separately with a Demoralize attempt. Creatures of equal or higher CR than the warlord's class level automatically succeed on this particular saving throw.
    A creature that makes its save becomes immune to that warlord’s Demoralizing Presence for the next 24 hours.


    Dual Motivation
    Starting at 10th level, a warlord may double-motivate his allies, effectively granting two benefits from the Motivation list.


    Join My Cause (Ex)
    Starting at 13th level, a warlord has gained so much influence over others that he can turn even an enemy into an ally.
    Once per day, when not engaged in combat, a warlord may use Compelling Oratory to apply either Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate check (warlord's choice) vs. all non-allies within his Motivation range. Those that are overcome are effectively charmed by the warlord.
    A warlord may only convert others to the same cause his soldiers/allies follow.


    Indomitable Spirit (Ex)
    A 14th level warlord’s fighting spirit enables him to push himself beyond the normal limits of physical and mental endurance.
    The warlord no longer automatically fails a saving throw on a roll of 1. He might still fail the save if his result fails to equal or beat the DC.
    Also, the warlord becomes immune to fear.
    Finally, the warlord also gains Indomitable Soul as bonus feat, even if he would not normally qualify for taking it.


    Daunting Presence (Ex)
    Starting at 17th level, any opponent who has become demoralized due to the warlord's Demoralizing Presence must make a successful Will save vs. DC 10 + 1/2 the warlord's class level + his Cha-bonus. Opponents that fail their save become Fatigued. Opponents who are already Fatigued ignore this effect.


    Dual Motivation
    Starting at 18th level, a warlord may triple-motivate his allies, effectively granting them three benefits from the Motivation list.


    Supreme Commander (Ex)
    A 20th level warlord becomes an absolute master of the battlefield.
    The Warlord's battlefield coverage increases to 100' + 20' per level (via inhuman voice and enhanced eyesight & hearing) and the warlord's allies gain all the benefits of Indomitable Spirit.
    .

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Did I over do it?
    Did I give the Warlord too much and made it too effective?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    The bonuses laugh at the RNG at high levels and are unnoticeable at the lowest levels. At least the SR scales OK.

    Battle-Hardened Commander is IHS-style vague. Does crushing despair count? What about intimidate? Or phantasmal assailants? Or illusions meant to frighten the warlord off?

    Teamwork benefits are similarly vague. Natural Leader seems like it'll count, but Vexing Flanker never specifies requiring your allies and Practice Cohort allows you a better ally but it doesn't require working with those allies so it's a mess of confusion.

    Cohorts are overpowered and minion fighting rules are broken. Please do not use leadership.

    Push Followers is just adding numbers to an old ability, breaking the RNG further. There really isn't a point to this ability--you could fold it into the original one anyways.

    Immunity to Fear at 14th level is just sad.

    In total, this is a broken class from Leadership and ridiculous bonus scaling that might contribute well as a power amplifier off of allies but overall feels about as engaging as a dedicated healbot.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The bonuses laugh at the RNG at high levels and are unnoticeable at the lowest levels. At least the SR scales OK.
    So, what would you suggest?
    A flat ½ Cha-bonus maybe?
    Problem is that without putting a level limit it would be too tempting for cherry-picking, and bards also get +1 at levels 1st – 7th, so I don’t see why you’d call it “unnoticeable”.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Battle-Hardened Commander is IHS-style vague. Does crushing despair count? What about intimidate? Or phantasmal assailants? Or illusions meant to frighten the warlord off?
    To answer this question, I’ll firs ask: “are the above constitute as negative emotional conditions and effects?”
    I see no reason not to count them as such. Phantasmal Assailants is a fear effect.
    Maybe I could specify fear, sorrow, hatred, despair & uncontrolled rage. Are there other categories of negative emotional effects you could think of that would be appropriate?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Teamwork benefits are similarly vague. Natural Leader seems like it'll count, but Vexing Flanker never specifies requiring your allies and Practice Cohort allows you a better ally but it doesn't require working with those allies so it's a mess of confusion.
    Which is why I said “any feat whose benefits stem from fighting alongside an ally”.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Cohorts are overpowered and minion fighting rules are broken. Please do not use leadership.
    Cohorts are core issue. Leadership is available by RAW to everyone.
    ATM, I want to focus on the homebrewing part and leave houseruling aside.
    Also, Warlord’s Leadership does not enhance cohorts.
    Also, I don’t see how followers would break the game in any way. They’re not meant to be taken along on adventures, but to serve for mass combat scenarios.
    Do you have any better suggestions for emphasizing the Warlord’s superior knack of attracting and leading a small army?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Push Followers is just adding numbers to an old ability, breaking the RNG further. There really isn't a point to this ability--you could fold it into the original one anyways.
    Maybe with reduced Motivation, the RNG would not be so glaringly broken.
    [EDIT]: When Motivation is gained, there are no followers to relate to. Also, if I folded in into Motivation, I'll have 4 dead levels that I don't have anything to fill with ATM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Immunity to Fear at 14th level is just sad.
    Which is why it’s not a stand-alone feature.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    In total, this is a broken class from Leadership and ridiculous bonus scaling that might contribute well as a power amplifier off of allies but overall feels about as engaging as a dedicated healbot.
    What about negating harmful effects, being able to on-the-fly augment practically any combat stat you could think of, and diverse action economy manipulation every round?



    All in all, what kind of archetypal Warlord capabilities do you find this class to be lacking?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    So, what would you suggest?
    A flat ½ Cha-bonus maybe?
    Problem is that without putting a level limit it would be too tempting for cherry-picking, and bards also get +1 at levels 1st – 7th, so I don’t see why you’d call it “unnoticeable”.
    A 5% difference is right on the border of statistically significant. The benefit a +1 bonus provides is less noticeable than rolling well or poorly in a given session. And the bard's +1 is also weak. The bard handbook(s) admit to and compensate for this.

    A couple ways to limit dipping, if you're worried about it:
    • Allow a list of capabilities that quadratically scale (1 @lv1, 4 @lv2)
    • Inactivate the feature if the warlord takes more than X non-bonus-granting classes
    • Let it feel weak at low levels and give them more options so they feel like doing things.
    • Require a legitimate action usage, so even a dip isn't that good if it isn't synergistic.
    • Put it at later levels.

    I prefer the third, but the last two work fine. Right now, the ability is probably closer to "balanced", but it's not fun to use because you're probably going to grant the same 1 bonus to the party as a free action each round and it's really tiny at low levels (before becoming incredibly borked), so you don't feel like you're doing anything at the levels most players adventure.

    The thing is that the marshal doesn't have any marshal-y things to do at low levels. You can be fine with that and just have the marshal use a greatsword and stab dudes, or you can give it something that doesn't feel like a copy of the fighter.

    To answer this question, I’ll firs ask: “are the above constitute as negative emotional conditions and effects?”
    I see no reason not to count them as such. Phantasmal Assailants is a fear effect.
    Maybe I could specify fear, sorrow, hatred, despair & uncontrolled rage. Are there other categories of negative emotional effects you could think of that would be appropriate?
    Fear sounds like a "negative emotion" to me. I could argue that happiness is a negative emotion to a death-obsessed necropolitan and thus it drives him crazy and so he should get a save against it too. Or I could argue that an illusion of a pit shocks people and shock is a negative emotion and thus my character should get a bonus... things like that can cause all sorts of dumb arguments between DM and player.

    The point is that there no real benefit gained from keeping this abstract, so you should just pick something concrete and keep it at that.

    Which is why I said “any feat whose benefits stem from fighting alongside an ally”.
    So I have to be standing next to them? Sounds like I can't even get flanking feats.

    Cohorts are core issue. Leadership is available by RAW to everyone.
    ATM, I want to focus on the homebrewing part and leave houseruling aside.
    Also, Warlord’s Leadership does not enhance cohorts.
    Also, I don’t see how followers would break the game in any way. They’re not meant to be taken along on adventures, but to serve for mass combat scenarios.
    Do you have any better suggestions for emphasizing the Warlord’s superior knack of attracting and leading a small army?
    Leadership is not available to everyone, it is explicitly DM permission only and this class grants it sans permission with no alternatives. The thing about leadership is that even if you don't get bonuses to it you're getting a second character who can be a buff/utility caster or something and now you overshadow the entire party and that's bad.

    Followers break the game because no one else does mass combat which gives the warlord exclusivity (and that's bad), and the sheer number of attack rolls that a force will need to make to be semi-level-appropriate will bog the game down. So either they're something that makes the warlord play solo games (broken) or they multiply time taken at the gaming table by 20 (broken).

    If you want the warlord to lead a small army, write mass combat rules or give them some Heroes of Battle abilities. Leadership is just a pain.

    Maybe with reduced Motivation, the RNG would not be so glaringly broken.
    [EDIT]: When Motivation is gained, there are no followers to relate to. Also, if I folded in into Motivation, I'll have 4 dead levels that I don't have anything to fill with ATM.
    You effectively do have 4 dead levels, they're just hidden from the initial skim.

    Which is why it’s not a stand-alone feature.
    If you get weapon focus and weapon specialization at level 13 it's still sad. Same thing here.

    What about negating harmful effects, being able to on-the-fly augment practically any combat stat you could think of, and diverse action economy manipulation every round?
    You "negate" fatigue and exhaustion, out of combat, and only provide a save bonus against some small subset of effects that people won't care about as soon as they pick up mind blank. As always in buffing, there are 1-3 stats that you will always spam because nobody needs the other things, so that's not actually interesting. Your "diverse action economy manipulation" is "Extra attack, move action, or small mobility bonus": The extra attack is for your fighters and the rest of very niche.

    All in all, what kind of archetypal Warlord capabilities do you find this class to be lacking?
    Debuff prevention, combat planning, initiative bonuses, enemy "analysis", and interesting high level powers.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    A 5% difference is right on the border of statistically significant. The benefit a +1 bonus provides is less noticeable than rolling well or poorly in a given session. And the bard's +1 is also weak. The bard handbook(s) admit to and compensate for this.

    A couple ways to limit dipping, if you're worried about it:
    • Allow a list of capabilities that quadratically scale (1 @lv1, 4 @lv2)
    • Inactivate the feature if the warlord takes more than X non-bonus-granting classes
    • Let it feel weak at low levels and give them more options so they feel like doing things.
    • Require a legitimate action usage, so even a dip isn't that good if it isn't synergistic.
    • Put it at later levels.

    I prefer the third, but the last two work fine. Right now, the ability is probably closer to "balanced", but it's not fun to use because you're probably going to grant the same 1 bonus to the party as a free action each round and it's really tiny at low levels (before becoming incredibly borked), so you don't feel like you're doing anything at the levels most players adventure.

    The thing is that the marshal doesn't have any marshal-y things to do at low levels. You can be fine with that and just have the marshal use a greatsword and stab dudes, or you can give it something that doesn't feel like a copy of the fighter.
    Since most parties revolve around levels 5th - 11th, my proposed progression still seems reasonable (+3 and up).
    To avoid breaking the RNG, guess I could limit things to +5 (does +5 cap seem reasonable?). For that, I'll stomach the 5% at 1st & 2nd levels.

    And I totally don't agree with you on the warlord granting the same bonus to the party over and over again.
    It all depends on scenarios. If you need to quickly dispatch of an opponent, you'd choose bonuses to attack rolls or damage scores, depending of hit probabilities. if you're facing a Bodak or Medusa, you'd pump saves. When facing opponents that deal massive damage, you'd probably want to pump AC or DR, depending on the attackers' hit probabilities. When trying to pick someone's pocket, your party scoundrel would probably want pumped up Dex. Etc, etc, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Fear sounds like a "negative emotion" to me. I could argue that happiness is a negative emotion to a death-obsessed necropolitan and thus it drives him crazy and so he should get a save against it too. Or I could argue that an illusion of a pit shocks people and shock is a negative emotion and thus my character should get a bonus... things like that can cause all sorts of dumb arguments between DM and player.

    The point is that there no real benefit gained from keeping this abstract, so you should just pick something concrete and keep it at that.
    How about just applying the bonuses to saves vs. all emotion-bases spells & effects? (if someone chooses to fail a save - it's their choice)


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    So I have to be standing next to them? Sounds like I can't even get flanking feats.
    Maybe flanking could be the exception, but not necessarily (see below).


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Leadership is not available to everyone, it is explicitly DM permission only and this class grants it sans permission with no alternatives. The thing about leadership is that even if you don't get bonuses to it you're getting a second character who can be a buff/utility caster or something and now you overshadow the entire party and that's bad.

    Followers break the game because no one else does mass combat which gives the warlord exclusivity (and that's bad), and the sheer number of attack rolls that a force will need to make to be semi-level-appropriate will bog the game down. So either they're something that makes the warlord play solo games (broken) or they multiply time taken at the gaming table by 20 (broken).

    If you want the warlord to lead a small army, write mass combat rules or give them some Heroes of Battle abilities. Leadership is just a pain.
    Teamwork Benefits (p.115) Yeah baby
    To capitalize on that one, I'll probably go for shorter training times, starting with 3 benefits at 5th level and gaining 2 more at levels 9, 13 & 17. I could also give access to all, but that would just make the game clunky at lower levels (and it's unnecessary, because a veteran party could have 4 benefits available at all times without significant annual effort).
    Question is by how much do I shorten the four 1-week training periods per year?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    If you get weapon focus and weapon specialization at level 13 it's still sad. Same thing here.
    Indomitable Spirit is by far superior to Focus + Spec.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    You "negate" fatigue and exhaustion, out of combat, and only provide a save bonus against some small subset of effects that people won't care about as soon as they pick up mind blank.
    1. All temp. physical and all mental effects is hardly a small subset of anything.
    2. Spamming Mind Blank is something I've never encountered to date.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    As always in buffing, there are 1-3 stats that you will always spam because nobody needs the other things, so that's not actually interesting. Your "diverse action economy manipulation" is "Extra attack, move action, or small mobility bonus": The extra attack is for your fighters and the rest of very niche.
    Care to look at Tactical Opportunity and Battle Rush once again?
    Selective extra standard & move action are awesome, and AoOs & 5'-steps are the bread & butter of any close range encounter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Debuff prevention, combat planning, initiative bonuses, enemy "analysis", and interesting high level powers.
    Debuff prevention - Save bonuses & re-saves do that.
    combat planning - not sure what you mean by that.
    initiative bonuses - most groups roll initiative once per encounter only, so this one can be an automatic always-on option. I like it.
    enemy "analysis" - not sure what you mean by that.
    interesting high level powers - My well is dry, so any suggestion could be helpful.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Since most parties revolve around levels 5th - 11th, my proposed progression still seems reasonable (+3 and up).
    To avoid breaking the RNG, guess I could limit things to +5 (does +5 cap seem reasonable?). For that, I'll stomach the 5% at 1st & 2nd levels.
    That doesn't work. First off, your level range is conjecture, but let's ignore that. Secondly, you can't say "It's bad 75% of the time, but this 25% of the time it's fine so I'm not worried". If a +3 bonus is appropriate, then a +3 bonus should be granted from the get-go. If it needs to get bigger at higher levels, make it as big as it needs to be. Don't try to fit an algorithm or cap to it.

    And I totally don't agree with you on the warlord granting the same bonus to the party over and over again.
    It all depends on scenarios. If you need to quickly dispatch of an opponent, you'd choose bonuses to attack rolls or damage scores, depending of hit probabilities. if you're facing a Bodak or Medusa, you'd pump saves. When facing opponents that deal massive damage, you'd probably want to pump AC or DR, depending on the attackers' hit probabilities. When trying to pick someone's pocket, your party scoundrel would probably want pumped up Dex. Etc, etc, etc.
    Saves, 1 Offensive Boost, Temp HP. That will be every combat, and the choice is so simple (is it a bodak? spam saves) that it might as well be done by a robot. Also pickpocket is based on Sleight of Hand, which is not called out as an allowable skill.

    How about just applying the bonuses to saves vs. all emotion-bases spells & effects? (if someone chooses to fail a save - it's their choice)
    How about [Mind-Affecting] abilities or perhaps all [Enchantment] effects? The goal is to stop rules arguments.

    Teamwork Benefits (p.115) Yeah baby
    To capitalize on that one, I'll probably go for shorter training times, starting with 3 benefits at 5th level and gaining 2 more at levels 9, 13 & 17. I could also give access to all, but that would just make the game clunky at lower levels (and it's unnecessary, because a veteran party could have 4 benefits available at all times without significant annual effort).
    Question is by how much do I shorten the four 1-week training periods per year?
    Woah, I thought we were talking about tiny fighting men for mass combat purposes? Teamwork benefits are basically for PCs.


    Indomitable Spirit is by far superior to Focus + Spec.
    That was a bad example. Let me try that again: Weapon Focus + Shock Trooper can be good at level 6, but the fact that you're getting Weapon Focus at 6 is still sad.

    1. All temp. physical and all mental effects is hardly a small subset of anything.
    That would be burning a standard action (which you could be spending giving someone else more killing potential and ending the fight faster) and probably a free action (same thing here with killing potential) to negate an effect that will wear off in ~2min, which the wizard could pop with a quickened dispel anyways. That's not how D&D fights are designed, and it's about as smart as casting healing spells in combat. When I talk about negating conditions, I mean this, or this, or this. Stuff that will literally take you out of the adventure, not just the fight. The things you have to help with this are removal of fatigue/exhaustion by talking at the PCs and an aura bonus to the vaguely defined emotional effects (I wrap permanent insanity and confusion in with this)

    Spamming Mind Blank is something I've never encountered to date.
    It's not spamming mind blank. This is standard adventuring stuff, and should be picked up around lv 9-13 for players that want to contribute well and control their wealth.

    Care to look at Tactical Opportunity and Battle Rush once again?
    Selective extra standard & move action are awesome, and AoOs & 5'-steps are the bread & butter of any close range encounter.
    In a fight, if you don't get to use any supernatural, spell-like, or psionic abilities, you are using a standard action (extra attack), a move action (so they can get somewhere to attack) or small utility bonuses like 5' steps which will not matter after your meleers are in melee. AoOs are not useful for people who don't specialize, and if they do then they will have Combat Reflexes already because they didn't want to wait till 6th level for you to have a decent Motivation bonus, then burn your swift action every turn to carry them.

    Debuff prevention - Save bonuses & re-saves do that.
    combat planning - not sure what you mean by that.
    initiative bonuses - most groups roll initiative once per encounter only, so this one can be an automatic always-on option. I like it.
    enemy "analysis" - not sure what you mean by that.
    interesting high level powers - My well is dry, so any suggestion could be helpful.
    Debuff prevention--"Prevention" =/= "Getting hit already and maybe getting out of it a second time". I mean immunities to conditions, like fear or exhaustion.
    Combat Planning--There is nothing right now that gives the warlord an incentive to plan ambushes or undergo tactical maneuvers.
    Enemy Analysis--Knowing how they fight, what saves they target, how to target them, etc.
    Interesting high-level powers--AoE mook frightening, removing certain area effects (silence, perhaps clouds), command enemies, healing powers, getting bigger and louder (covering a battlefield), immunity to mortal conditions like sleep, super eyesight. Pick yer favorites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    That doesn't work. First off, your level range is conjecture, but let's ignore that. Secondly, you can't say "It's bad 75% of the time, but this 25% of the time it's fine so I'm not worried". If a +3 bonus is appropriate, then a +3 bonus should be granted from the get-go. If it needs to get bigger at higher levels, make it as big as it needs to be. Don't try to fit an algorithm or cap to it.
    I’m not saying "It's bad 75% of the time, but this 25% of the time it's fine so I'm not worried".
    I’m saying that I’m fine with +1s at 1st level. I’ve been a part of enough scenarios where +1 made a huge difference, or made a difference more than once in the same encounter, so I don’t knock it.
    My only question here revolves around +5 and how much I can push it further without breaking the RNG, because I’m not what you’d call a calculation ninja.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Saves, 1 Offensive Boost, Temp HP. That will be every combat, and the choice is so simple (is it a bodak? spam saves) that it might as well be done by a robot.
    If an attack carries harming effects beyond HP damage, then AC might be far more important than HP.
    If there are a lot of attackers that do little damage that accumulates, then DR would serve you better than temp HP.
    If you or an ally need to chase someone or runaway, then you’d need movement boosting.
    If your party mage can’t penetrate an opponent’s SR, that’s what you’re gonna pump up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Also pickpocket is based on Sleight of Hand, which is not called out as an allowable skill.
    Which is why I was talking about Dex boosting. It’s not as effective as skill boosting, but it’s not zero either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    How about [Mind-Affecting] abilities or perhaps all [Enchantment] effects? The goal is to stop rules arguments.
    [Enchantment] effects it is then (including all forms of compulsion).


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Woah, I thought we were talking about tiny fighting men for mass combat purposes? Teamwork benefits are basically for PCs.
    Yes, you were right. I don’t wish to deal with mass combat rules. Not for this homebrew anyway.
    When (and if) I get there, teamwork benefits will serve me as well, so I might as well use something that will have double impact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    That was a bad example. Let me try that again: Weapon Focus + Shock Trooper can be good at level 6, but the fact that you're getting Weapon Focus at 6 is still sad.
    You don’t always get level appropriate powers (e.g. Mettle vs. Timeless Body).
    Sometimes you just plug a hole.
    Also, the combination of Battle Hardened Commander, Indomitable Soul, fear immunity and not auto-failing on a roll of 1 makes a character next to impervious to mental influence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    That would be burning a standard action (which you could be spending giving someone else more killing potential and ending the fight faster) and probably a free action (same thing here with killing potential) to negate an effect that will wear off in ~2min, which the wizard could pop with a quickened dispel anyways. That's not how D&D fights are designed, and it's about as smart as casting healing spells in combat.
    What about cases where one of your party’s full casters is dominated or any of the party members is paralyzed?
    In such cases Motivation either does nothing or you’re practically shooting yourself in the leg.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    When I talk about negating conditions, I mean this, or this, or this. Stuff that will literally take you out of the adventure, not just the fight. The things you have to help with this are removal of fatigue/exhaustion by talking at the PCs and an aura bonus to the vaguely defined emotional effects (I wrap permanent insanity and confusion in with this)
    I don’t see how you poison someone or turn someone to stone via battlefield brilliance, but fear/fatigue/despair – that I can definitely imagine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    It's not spamming mind blank. This is standard adventuring stuff, and should be picked up around lv 9-13 for players that want to contribute well and control their wealth.
    I’d rather have my character self sufficient than count on WBL optimization.
    It’s much easier for a DM to take away gear than to take away class features.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    In a fight, if you don't get to use any supernatural, spell-like, or psionic abilities, you are using a standard action (extra attack), a move action (so they can get somewhere to attack) or small utility bonuses like 5' steps which will not matter after your meleers are in melee.
    It seems to me like drinking a potion or bull rushing an enemy off a cliff could definitely matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    AoOs are not useful for people who don't specialize, and if they do then they will have Combat Reflexes already because they didn't want to wait till 6th level for you to have a decent Motivation bonus, then burn your swift action every turn to carry them.
    Every feat one selects comes at the expense of others.
    If a party’s experience is that there aren’t many situations where one gets more than one AoO per round, then Combat Reflexes just isn’t worth it in the big picture and they wouldn’t take it. Also, a powerhouse with low Dex won’t take it either.
    But now everyone in the group sort’a has it for free.
    Also, you’re ignoring the ability to not provoke AoOs, which can sometimes translate to a lot of AoOs spared from the recipient.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Debuff prevention--"Prevention" =/= "Getting hit already and maybe getting out of it a second time". I mean immunities to conditions, like fear or exhaustion.
    Combat Planning--There is nothing right now that gives the warlord an incentive to plan ambushes or undergo tactical maneuvers.
    Enemy Analysis--Knowing how they fight, what saves they target, how to target them, etc.
    Interesting high-level powers--AoE mook frightening, removing certain area effects (silence, perhaps clouds), command enemies, healing powers, getting bigger and louder (covering a battlefield), immunity to mortal conditions like sleep, super eyesight. Pick yer favorites.
    Debuff prevention – ok, maybe Compelling Oratory could be improved with level progression.
    Combat Planning – no inspiration there.
    Enemy Analysis – My Warrior has a Warcraft for that. I think of migrating it over here.
    Interesting high-level powers - AoE mook frightening should come way earlier; AoE removal is not Warlord-themed in my view; Command Enemies has potential, but maybe it should also come earlier (13th maybe?); For capstone, I think I’ll go for “Supreme Commander”, which will grant a warlord battlefield coverage of 300’ and grant all allies all the warlord’s Indomitable Spirit benefits.




    So, to sum up what I have so far . . .

    Warlord's Leadership & Push Followers fly out the window.
    This will leave 4 dead levels: 5, 9, 13 & 17.
    Instead, I'll migrate my Warrior's "Assess the Enemy" warcraft over to the Warlord at 5th level.

    This still leaves 3 dead levels to fill: 9, 13 & 17. This is basically where I need the big help.
    Maybe some kind of powerful Break Enemy Spirit at 9th (fear/fatigue/despair... could use some help with the details here).
    I’m also considering a 13th level ability named “Join My Cause”, which will convert enemies to the Warlord’s side (ditto).
    I’ve got nothing for 17th ATM.

    Other changes will include:
    - Init bonus equal to Motivation modifier (unless the group rolls init each round anew, in which case this becomes another in-combat Motivation option).
    - Battle Hardened Commander grants save bonuses vs. all sorts of combat associated mental influence, such as enchantment & compulsion spells and effects, as well as opposed skill checks to counter Bluff, Intimidate & Sleight of Hand.
    - Tactical Leader, instead of granting feats, grants a warlord with 3 teamwork benefits at 1st level, plus one more per level thereafter, which he can train others within 2-days training periods instead of 1-week periods.
    - I need some nice upgrades for Compelling Oratory, at levels 8, 12, 16 (level 20 will be reserved for the capstone ability). I’m thinking of adding “Rallying Cry” at 8th, which upgrades Compelling Oratory to a once-per-encounter in-combat option. 12th level Rallying Cry will break magical sleep, charm & fear, and 16th level will grant immunity to magical sleep, charm & fear until the end of the encounter.
    - Level 20 capstone will be “Supreme Commander”, which will grant the Warlord battlefield coverage of 300’ (via inhuman voice and enhanced eyesight & hearing) and grant allies all the warlord’s Indomitable Spirit benefits.

    For now, I’m keeping the Motivation bonuses a +1 per odd level, capped at +5, unless you think a higher cap (+7 maybe?) won’t break the RNG.

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    Wikipedia-like cross indexing (will add reciprocal link):
    Grace-Gift
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2013-10-26 at 05:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Wikipedia-like cross indexing (will add reciprocal link):
    Grace-Gift

    I'm a bit puzzled. Not sure what to make of your reply.


    If it was meant as criticism on my somewhat lazy formatting, then first of all thanks for the tip.
    My homebrew is usually accompanied by preliminary notes and explanation of intentions, but given d20 is aching for a decent Warlord since... well, forever, and given the Marshal is so gloriously craptacular, it really didn't seem necessary.
    Beyond that, it's not that I don't give a rat's ass about readers' conveniences, I'm simply struggling to scrape some spare time for my meager participation here that I just don't have the energy (or extra time) to put into more inviting visualization.
    That's the best I can provide these days.


    If it was meant to promote PEACH exchange, then I must apologize in advance and state that I'm not making any promises due to The Grace-Gift's magnitude.
    Also, when I think I have something to contribute, I usually do so wholeheartedly without encouragement (but I'll admit that I haven't looked into your class yet).


    If it was meant to help me fill in the blanks for my Warlord, then I'll need some more specifications what to look for and where.




    With my luck, the above trio probably count as 3-misses, so clarifications could be helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I’m not saying "It's bad 75% of the time, but this 25% of the time it's fine so I'm not worried".
    I’m saying that I’m fine with +1s at 1st level. I’ve been a part of enough scenarios where +1 made a huge difference, or made a difference more than once in the same encounter, so I don’t knock it.
    My only question here revolves around +5 and how much I can push it further without breaking the RNG, because I’m not what you’d call a calculation ninja.
    OK, then I'd recommend capping it a +5.

    If an attack carries harming effects beyond HP damage, then AC might be far more important than HP.
    If there are a lot of attackers that do little damage that accumulates, then DR would serve you better than temp HP.
    If you or an ally need to chase someone or runaway, then you’d need movement boosting.
    If your party mage can’t penetrate an opponent’s SR, that’s what you’re gonna pump up.
    Very few attacks do that except poison, which requires a fort save for 1 round so you're spamming saves anyways or it doesn't matter because the next time poison does anything the fight will be over.
    Very few attackers with very little damage that reliably hit you and aren't wiped out in 1-2 rounds by AoE damage is an incredibly niche case.
    Chasing or running away is also niche where 1 person doesn't have a teleport of crowd control or a better mobility form (flight, burrow). Like, it might happen once per campaign.
    If an opponent has high SR (and not for the entire combat? What??), you will pump to-hit because they will have low non-magic defenses or temp HP because they have weak offense (so you can win the slogfest) and you're not going to waste your AoE buff to help one member of the party.

    The point of this is that in a fight, your player is going to pick 1 motivation boost and do that every round because whatever is optimal at round 1 is almost guaranteed to be optimal in round 2 and so on. And that grants bonuses and can make the party more effective, but its hella boring and if the primary power of the class comes from them not doing anything they are more likely to go play Smash Bros than participate.

    Which is why I was talking about Dex boosting. It’s not as effective as skill boosting, but it’s not zero either.
    You're planning on the rogue with no ranks in sleight of hand or with fewer ranks than 1/2 per level pickpocketing someone and expecting to succeed? Again, incredibly niche.

    You don’t always get level appropriate powers (e.g. Mettle vs. Timeless Body).
    Sometimes you just plug a hole.
    If your work is bad, then yes you do this. But notice the crusader is the weakest of ToB classes, the monk is the weakest of the base classes, and trying to fill a dead level is not an acceptable reason to put down bad abilities.

    Also, the combination of Battle Hardened Commander, Indomitable Soul, fear immunity and not auto-failing on a roll of 1 makes a character next to impervious to mental influence.
    Indeed. I like that, and it's awesome for a warlord. But immunity to fear should still come earlier.

    What about cases where one of your party’s full casters is dominated or any of the party members is paralyzed?
    In such cases Motivation either does nothing or you’re practically shooting yourself in the leg.
    Dominated party members are no longer allies, and now your (more than 1-person) team gets a bonus to stabbing the dude that dominated him. The only time its worthwhile to spend a standard action trying to remove an effect instead of giving your friend an extra opportunity to end the fight is if the person incapacitated constitutes most of the party's offense. E.g. if the party is you, a healbot, a monk, and a rogue and the rogue gets stunned. If the party is you, a healbot, a barbarian, and a rogue and the rogue gets stunned then you're better off giving the barb an extra attack and boosting everyone's temp HP because every round that the enemy is defeated is one less round that they can stun you.

    I don’t see how you poison someone or turn someone to stone via battlefield brilliance, but fear/fatigue/despair – that I can definitely imagine.
    I don't see how you can stop time or double someone's sprinting speed by just shouting at them. But welcome to D&D.

    I’d rather have my character self sufficient than count on WBL optimization.
    It’s much easier for a DM to take away gear than to take away class features.
    You forgot the context of this argument: The party will consist of characters that take mind blank, which means the party will consist of characters immune to [Mind-Affecting] effects, which means the party will not need the AoE save bonus against [Mind-Affecting] effects. This is unrelated to the warlord's free mental barricade which is both flavorful and awesome.

    It seems to me like drinking a potion or bull rushing an enemy off a cliff could definitely matter.
    Those are both very niche, which is what I said before. The fact that it exists doesn't mean it will be common to any degree. In fact, bull rush and pulling potions are both suboptimal to trip attacks, standard attacks, maneuvers that involve attacks, and attack spells because those end fights faster.



    Every feat one selects comes at the expense of others.
    If a party’s experience is that there aren’t many situations where one gets more than one AoO per round, then Combat Reflexes just isn’t worth it in the big picture and they wouldn’t take it. Also, a powerhouse with low Dex won’t take it either.
    But now everyone in the group sort’a has it for free.
    Also, you’re ignoring the ability to not provoke AoOs, which can sometimes translate to a lot of AoOs spared from the recipient.
    You are relying on a level 6 party fighting enemies who don't make DC 20 tumble checks, can't fly, can't jaunt or teleport, can't turn invisible, and don't use ranged attacks, AND move through threatened areas. Which is like low-level fighter minions and the PCs don't care.

    But now that I'm re-reading your response and the class I need to clarify something: Do you intend for the ally to not provoke AoOs for an entire turn, or just for 1 instance in which they would? The former is useful and awesome, and the latter is meh.

    Debuff prevention – That would be useful, and secure the warlord's place as support.

    Combat Planning – no inspiration there.
    Same problem here. That's why I'm not writing a warlord.

    Enemy Analysis – My Warrior has a Warcraft for that. I think of migrating it over here.
    Identifying enemies is finr. I'd like to see him know targets ACs, saves, hit dice, etc, but that's metagamey and can annoy improv DMs to no end.

    Interesting high-level powers - AoE mook frightening should come way earlier; AoE removal is not Warlord-themed in my view; Command Enemies has potential, but maybe it should also come earlier (13th maybe?); For capstone, I think I’ll go for “Supreme Commander”, which will grant a warlord battlefield coverage of 300’ and grant all allies all the warlord’s Indomitable Spirit benefits.
    The main US front on D-Day was a mile wide, so I'd request you make his capstone aura at least 2500'. I know that sounds like a lot, but 1 warlord is honestly going to be leading an entire army by himself. When 9th level spells start being a thing, I'd like to see him winning combats.

    [Snip]
    The changes are awesome. Aside from what I've mentioned above, I recommend tying the warlord's Motivation, save-forcing abilities, and condition removal to a mental stat (I suggest Wisdom to further enforce the idea of making him a mental wall). I also suggest you increase the number of times per day he can remove major conditions (with the oratory) to at least 4/day around 10th level, because serious save-or-dies are going to be regularly tossed down.

    As for potential enemy-affecting abilities: EX charm person, some sort of immobilize, something like Iron Guard's glare, if you can have the warlord yell super loud to shaken enemies (not frighten, just unnerve).

    Capping is tough, because if you're OK with that +1 bonus existing at low levels, then the number should scale quickly up to +3, become +5 in the mid levels, hit +7 around 13-17th, and then it quickly stops mattering because enemies are using crazy things like shapechange and no-save-just-dies so the number can go crazy.

    Spoiler
    Show
    {table]Level|Bonus
    1|+1
    2|+1
    3|+2
    4|+2
    5|+3
    6|+3
    7|+4
    8|+4
    9|+5
    10|+5
    11|+6
    12|+6
    13|+6
    14|+7
    15|+7
    16|+7
    17|+8
    18|+9
    19|+10
    20|+GG[/table]
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-10-26 at 06:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'm a bit puzzled. Not sure what to make of your reply.


    If it was meant as criticism on my somewhat lazy formatting, then first of all thanks for the tip.
    My homebrew is usually accompanied by preliminary notes and explanation of intentions, but given d20 is aching for a decent Warlord since... well, forever, and given the Marshal is so gloriously craptacular, it really didn't seem necessary.
    Beyond that, it's not that I don't give a rat's ass about readers' conveniences, I'm simply struggling to scrape some spare time for my meager participation here that I just don't have the energy (or extra time) to put into more inviting visualization.
    That's the best I can provide these days.
    Nothing like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    If it was meant to promote PEACH exchange, then I must apologize in advance and state that I'm not making any promises due to The Grace-Gift's magnitude.
    Also, when I think I have something to contribute, I usually do so wholeheartedly without encouragement (but I'll admit that I haven't looked into your class yet).
    While I wouldn't turn down a PEACH exchange, I might be slow to do my part if such were to occur (I have organizational issues in my life), and the Grace-Gift is... well, its sorta its own subsystem/casting mechanic, despite inheriting a lot of its abilities from other spells. This in turn means that it is almost a splat-book unto itself, especially with the number of feats it can pick. (Note to self: add references in ability descriptions to feats that can enhance that ability).
    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    If it was meant to help me fill in the blanks for my Warlord, then I'll need some more specifications what to look for and where.
    Eh... if anything I would just skim through the Grace-Gift and see if anything inspires you.
    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    With my luck, the above trio probably count as 3-misses, so clarifications could be helpful.
    This is actually the most correct to my original intention.

    The Grace-Gift and this class are vaguely similar in that they are party buffers. I've been told that the Grace-Gift is actually more of a Leader than a Defender mechanically, despite being very much NOT a leader from a fluff perspective of how their abilities work. As such, having links leading from one to the other is helpful to readers searching for the perfect class to play. I have a habit of providing such cross-linking, admittedly mostly with my own work (for one thing, my own work is what I know the best, so it is easiest to do in those cases).

    I always try to provide reciprocal links when possible.

    tl;dr
    Go look at the Grace-Gift if you feel you need inspiration. It MIGHT help (actually I don't think so...). Otherwise just smile, nod, and look happy. The purpose of my post could be accomplished even if you completely ignore it.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2013-10-26 at 06:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Go look at the Grace-Gift if you feel you need inspiration. It MIGHT help (actually I don't think so...). Otherwise just smile, nod, and look happy. The purpose of my post could be accomplished even if you completely ignore it.
    Thanks. It's always nice to know somebody cares

    The sheer magnitude of the Grace-Gift is somewhat frightening, but I'll try to bring myself to go over it in the next few days.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    [Snip]
    Sorry for the delay. Your reply appeared for me only today, so I wasn't aware of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    ...niche...
    No argument there, I live in peace with the fact that all fingers were not made equal, but I'm counting on the large number in niche(something) handling options to cover a wide variety of niche cases.
    It's better to have the options than not to have them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The changes are awesome. Aside from what I've mentioned above, I recommend tying the warlord's Motivation, save-forcing abilities, and condition removal to a mental stat (I suggest Wisdom to further enforce the idea of making him a mental wall).
    From a purely thematic standpoint, isn't Cha more appropriate for the effectiveness of a war leader's instructions than Wis?
    Also, the Warlord already depends on Str, Con & Cha. To mitigate MADness by circumventing the need for high Wis, I gave it good Will saves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I also suggest you increase the number of times per day he can remove major conditions (with the oratory) to at least 4/day around 10th level, because serious save-or-dies are going to be regularly tossed down.
    Don't know. 3 + Wis-bonus times per day would mean that the warlord will spend all day long drilling into his allies' heads, making them quickly go "SHUT THE [email protected]#$%~ UP!!!"


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    As for potential enemy-affecting abilities: EX charm person, some sort of immobilize, something like Iron Guard's glare, if you can have the warlord yell super loud to shaken enemies (not frighten, just unnerve).
    Hmmm... auto-demoralize check (once) vs. anyone confronting the warlord and entering his Motivation zone.
    Melike


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Capping is tough, because if you're OK with that +1 bonus existing at low levels, then the number should scale quickly up to +3, become +5 in the mid levels, hit +7 around 13-17th, and then it quickly stops mattering because enemies are using crazy things like shapechange and no-save-just-dies so the number can go crazy.

    Spoiler
    Show
    {table]Level|Bonus
    1|+1
    2|+1
    3|+2
    4|+2
    5|+3
    6|+3
    7|+4
    8|+4
    9|+5
    10|+5
    11|+6
    12|+6
    13|+6
    14|+7
    15|+7
    16|+7
    17|+8
    18|+9
    19|+10
    20|+GG[/table]
    I'm a bit puzzled here. I'm guessing I lost your trail of thought, because that was my original intent (+1 per odd level; what's +GG btw?), but then you raised the issue of breaking the RNG.
    This doesn't add up with "OK, then I'd recommend capping it a +5.".
    So, to what does this progression relate?

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    No argument there, I live in peace with the fact that all fingers were not made equal, but I'm counting on the large number in niche(something) handling options to cover a wide variety of niche cases.
    It's better to have the options than not to have them.
    Remember the context of this. I was saying that the warlord's primary schtick feels very boring because he will use the same 2-3 conditions 90% of the time at the beginning of his turn every turn. Getting to do something interesting with your most important class feature only 10% of the time is damning with faint praise to me, but if you're OK with that then you're OK with that.

    From a purely thematic standpoint, isn't Cha more appropriate for the effectiveness of a war leader's instructions than Wis?
    Also, the Warlord already depends on Str, Con & Cha. To mitigate MADness by circumventing the need for high Wis, I gave it good Will saves.
    I like the thematic feel of a high-Wisdom warlord. This is really a personal preference from basics. Either way I recommend tying Cha more directly to the class.

    Don't know. 3 + Wis-bonus times per day would mean that the warlord will spend all day long drilling into his allies' heads, making them quickly go "SHUT THE [email protected]#$%~ UP!!!"
    Are you worried about preventing them from going through a forced march for excessive periods of time at high levels? I mean... I'm fine with that. If you're worried about it at low levels, then cap it at something like the lowest between (1/2 Lvl) or (StatMod).

    I'm a bit puzzled here. I'm guessing I lost your trail of thought, because that was my original intent (+1 per odd level; what's +GG btw?), but then you raised the issue of breaking the RNG.
    This doesn't add up with "OK, then I'd recommend capping it a +5.".
    So, to what does this progression relate?
    If you don't want to write anything complicated for scaling, cap it at +5. But in D&D, what constitutes a "strong bonus" varies based on your level range. +5 AoE buff is too much at level 1, but it's only shrug-worthy at level 20. Your options are an easy progression that caps at +5 (and you include a few more high-level class features) or a confusing progression that caps much higher.

    GG means Good Game. Your level 20 bonus is a capstone bonus, so whatever you put there is fine because the primary point of its existence is to look cool and make players excited to me a warlord. Thus I just wrote +GG because you could make that +10 or +15 and it probably wouldn't make a difference in the quality of the class.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Remember the context of this. I was saying that the warlord's primary schtick feels very boring because he will use the same 2-3 conditions 90% of the time at the beginning of his turn every turn. Getting to do something interesting with your most important class feature only 10% of the time is damning with faint praise to me, but if you're OK with that then you're OK with that.
    I squeezed every drop of inspiration I had there, but I'm always open to suggestions.
    And maybe with some luck, it'll be more than 10%.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I like the thematic feel of a high-Wisdom warlord. This is really a personal preference from basics. Either way I recommend tying Cha more directly to the class.
    Once I find the time to make all the proposed changes, I'll see if Cha has more places to fit in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Are you worried about preventing them from going through a forced march for excessive periods of time at high levels? I mean... I'm fine with that. If you're worried about it at low levels, then cap it at something like the lowest between (1/2 Lvl) or (StatMod).
    Not really.
    I'm not worried about any impact around the gaming table.
    It's more about the picture in my head than gameflow issues.
    3 + Wis-bonus will be fine, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    If you don't want to write anything complicated for scaling, cap it at +5. But in D&D, what constitutes a "strong bonus" varies based on your level range. +5 AoE buff is too much at level 1, but it's only shrug-worthy at level 20. Your options are an easy progression that caps at +5 (and you include a few more high-level class features) or a confusing progression that caps much higher.
    Then I'll go back to the original pattern of +1 per odd level, capped by Cha-bonus.
    With a little effort, a warlord that starts at +3 can make +10 by level 20 (+2 or +3 from level progression, +2 from Eagle's Splendor and +3 from tomes).


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    GG means Good Game. Your level 20 bonus is a capstone bonus, so whatever you put there is fine because the primary point of its existence is to look cool and make players excited to me a warlord. Thus I just wrote +GG because you could make that +10 or +15 and it probably wouldn't make a difference in the quality of the class.
    I think the capstone will be enough.
    I'll make the range 100' + 20' per level. 700' at 20th and increasing seems enough to me. I'm counting on an epic-level warlord having a group of warlord lieutenants (every leader of armies needs several decent sub commanders to to make the most out of his commanding skills), which will make the range count further if they employ siege weapons.
    This might be a good time to raise the option of a warlord granting subordinate warlords his Motivation modifier as long as they're within his Motivation range.


    As for levels 9, 13 and 17, this is what I have ATM:
    - 9th level: “Demoralizing Presence”: auto-demoralize-check (once) vs. anyone confronting the warlord and entering his Motivation zone.
    - 13th level: “Join My Cause”: out-of-combat mass charm, which will convert enemies to the Warlord’s side.
    - 17th level: “Daunting Presence”: demoralized opponents must make a Will save vs. DC 10 + ½ Warlord level + Cha-bonus or become Fatigued.



    [EDIT]: I'll also add temporary fear immunity for the Warlord when using Compelling Oratory.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    That looks good.

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    Default Re: Warlord II: Party Buff Extraordinaire (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    That looks good.
    Check it out now and see if something irks the eye.

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