VoP doesn't suck

[Irk]

Exactly. It's, "not magic in the traditional sense." Thus, it is logically likely that it is magic in the non-traditional sense.

This clears it up perfectly. It's just not traditional magic. There is no opposing argument, non traditional magic = magic of some sort. Done and finished.

[Coidzor]

As I quoted, a lot, you are wrong about this. Being non-magic is a massive component of what VoP is all about.

Being non-magic and not having nice things that aren't the bonuses of VoP, class features, feat-based, or racial abilities.

Relics would be out both from having magical items in effect and in actuality as well as from having some measure of nice things that aren't the bonuses of VoP, class features, feat-based, or racial abilities.

[RFLS]

These are not true.

The Primary Source rule explicitly states that the MM1, DMG, and PHB are primary sources for specific things. It also states that text always trumps table, and that if a rule is introduced in a book then that book is the primary source for how that rule works. At no point does it say anything about books saying they're primary sources. The Rules Compendium is the only book to do that, by the way. This rule does apply to the RC, but only because that book says so for that book... the RC trumps any book printed before it, but not books written after. But that's unique to the RC.

Your point two is completely false. For one thing, the PHB trumps, for example, Complete Warrior on the subject of classes. For another... this was never claimed.

The actual second sourcing rule is that more specific rules always supersede more general rules.

JaronK

One sec - re-re-reading the primary source rules.

Okay, got it.

I will outright agree that publication order is never mentioned, and will cede that it does not matter for primary source. Here's the text for primary sources that I'm reading from, for reference (let me know if there's another source for this):

When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a
table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence
when the short description in the beginning of the spells
chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves
book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for
example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC
races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something
on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or
the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s
Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the
primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary
source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special
material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual
is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and
supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

These paragraphs pretty clearly state that the primary source material is based on book and topic precedence. So - is the Magic Item Compendium the primary source for relics, which it establishes as being magic items, or is the Book of Exalted Deeds the primary source for relics?

[Coidzor]

Wouldn't psionic/magic transparency apply there?

Doesn't need to, psionic items aren't on the list for VoP characters either.

Because this community DESPERATELY needs them to be.

In general, we'd prefer the rules to have been better in the areas where they're lackluster or a pile of fail that doesn't work or make sense. So I don't believe that we want VoP to be undesirable, we just acknowledge that as written, it's not good enough without extenuating circumstances, and even then you can still be hurting. If we all wanted VoP to just suck, we'd never have made the fixes for it or advise people to use the fixes for it.

These paragraphs pretty clearly state that the primary source material is based on book and topic precedence. So - is the Magic Item Compendium the primary source for relics, which it establishes as being magic items, or is the Book of Exalted Deeds the primary source for relics?

Or are they two different things which are both called relics?

[visigani]

Exactly. It's, "not magic in the traditional sense." Thus, it is logically likely that it is magic in the non-traditional sense.


Transparency is the RAW. Non-transparency is the variant.

No, it's not "logically likely" that it's magic in the non traditional sense. You're grasping at some serious straws while intentionally ignoring the fact that they go out of their way to .

The items duplicate effects that are magical but are not magic in and of themselves.

This is why they function in an anti-magic field.

It's logical that they are not magic items because otherwise it would be impossible to confuse them for magic items.

You cannot confuse something with what it actually is.

I cannot accidentally confuse Dave with being Dave. I can confuse Dave's brother Steve with being Dave.. because Steve isn't Dave.

[RFLS]

Or are they two different things which are both called relics?

Hm. I don't think so, but I don't have a RAW backing on this one. The best I can come up with is that, because they're both sets of items that are holy because of contact with a holy person or outsider, they are not different things. Again, I don't know if there's a backing there for RAW.

[Gnaeus]

That's the first point that's been made against you. Here's the second one: 3.5's order of publication rules say two things about supremacy of source.

• If a source specifically says it is the primary source for a particular topic, then its rules supersede all others.
• If two sources contain similar material, the one with the later publishing date is the primary source for that material.

Magic Item Compendium was published in 2007; BoED, in 2003. Magic Item Compendium also clearly establishes itself as the primary source for all magic items. It contains within itself rules for relics. These rules clearly supersede those published within BoED, both in publication order and primacy of source.

You have yet to address either of these two points with anything like a rational argument or basic civility. If you could do so, I'm sure we'll all bask in your brilliance.

Number 3. If you tell me that your Monk build works great in all combats, because it has Wings of Flying and a Blindfold of True Darkness, and therefore Monk does not suck, I will ask how your monk is going to guarantee that he will have Wings of Flying and a Blindfold of True Darkness, because he can't create magic items. If you tell me that your wizard build is optimal because he can create items that cover his weaknesses, I will believe you because he can do that in the rules. VoP guy cannot create relics. He therefore has no way to guarantee the availability of relics. He is actually WORSE off than the Monk in question, who in a setting with a MagicMart may be able to just buy the items he needs, whereas with the relics you specifically can't, in part because you have no money because of VoP.

Number 4. None of the listed relics fixes VoP. Any decent relic is homebrew. It therefore has no possible place in a forum except to get opinions on if the homebrew would be balanced in your campaign. It is explicitly not the same RAW game that everyone else is playing. If your argument is "VoP guy is cool because he has these homebrew relics that fix problems X,Y,Z." and my response is "No he isn't, because I have this homebrew monster that has a gaze attack that permakills any Exalted character that he looks at unless that character makes 5 consecutive DC 95 will saves", I am just as right as you are. That is to say, those arguments may be correct in a game that allows that particular homebrew, but carry no water in a discussion of 3.5 as a game at generic table X.

Unless all 4 arguments are overcome, VoP still sucks.

[Codyage]

All right, I think I got this.

Like artifacts, relics cannot be manufactured, bought, or sold.
However, each relic has a market price equivalent, for the DM’s
use in assigning treasure only. These prices are calculated as
though the relics were magic items.

Emphasis mine.

Showing results for define manufactured
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man·u·fac·ture
ˌmanyəˈfakCHər/
verb
past tense: manufactured; past participle: manufactured
1.
make (something) on a large scale using machinery.
"a company that manufactured paint-by-number sets"
synonyms: make, produce, mass-produce, build, construct, assemble, put together, create, fabricate, turn out, process, engineer More
"the company manufactures laser printers"
(of a living thing) produce (a substance) naturally.
make or produce (something abstract) in a merely mechanical way.
"manufactured love songs"
2.
invent or fabricate (evidence or a story).
"the tabloid industry that manufactures epochal discoveries out of thin air"
synonyms: make up, invent, fabricate, concoct, hatch, dream up, think up, trump up, devise, formulate, frame, contrive;


Your DM cannot make up any new relics than the ones all ready listed, because if he were to create any new relics, he would be manufacturing them. Relics cannot be manufactured, sold, or bought as per the rules, so you MUST use Rule 0 to create the Relic. Since Rule 0 is involved, it becomes home brewed.

You can get your relics Mr. VoP, but you're limited to whatever the list gives you.

[JaronK]

I will outright agree that publication order is never mentioned, and will cede that it does not matter for primary source. Here's the text for primary sources that I'm reading from, for reference (let me know if there's another source for this):

That's the only source.

These paragraphs pretty clearly state that the primary source material is based on book and topic precedence. So - is the Magic Item Compendium the primary source for relics, which it establishes as being magic items, or is the Book of Exalted Deeds the primary source for relics?

Totally unclear here. The other question is whether the MIC is the primary source for magic items, or is the DMG? Because the DMG printed them first and the primary source rule says the DMG wins on magic item descriptions.

@Visigani: Does it say Relics aren't magic items, or that they don't radiate magic? Because claiming it's just the radiation would imply that an item with a spell on it to hide its aura is also valid with VoP.

And what about White Dragonscale Cloaks? Is that simple enough and non magical enough for VoP characters? How about Earthsilk Jerseys? Surely those are more simple than a near unique relic.

JaronK

[RFLS]

I cannot accidentally confuse Dave with being Dave. I can confuse Dave's brother Steve with being Dave.. because Steve isn't Dave.

You could, however, confuse [Da] with [Dave]. Both are subsets of the set known as [Dave]. In this case, the (and you missed this, so I'll say it again) "in the traditional sense" clause is an exception to the rule that proves that the rule exists.

[Jade_Tarem]

Except it states pretty clearly they aren't magical at all...

If they were magic items... you couldn't accidentally confuse them with magic items... because they *are* magic items.

So unless they are *not* magic items they cannot be confused *with* magic items.

In fact they're so not magic they're one of the ONLY THINGS IN THE GAME THAT OPERATE WHILE WITHIN AN ANTI-MAGIC FIELD...

Likewise, relics have a caster
level equivalent for purposes of spell effects and determining the
strength of its aura of good, but relics never radiate magic,
cannot be identified with the identify or analyze dweomer spells,
and cannot be suppressed or dispelled with dispel magic or antimagic
field.

and are otherwise completely immune to any force that affects magic.

But... THEY'RE COMPLETELY MAGIC ITEMS, DUDE... HOW COULD I BE SO WRONG?

Riiiiight.

Hi visigani! TODAY is the very special episode where I format my text JUST LIKE YOU DO. Does my use of ALL CAPS and OVERLY FORMATTED AND CONFRONTATIONAL language make you want to agree with me EVEN MORE?

*sigh* *facepalm* *facepalm again* *rub face where it's sore form vigorous palming* *check to see if all have acknowledged the obvious brilliance of a man who keeps hitting himself in the face yet*

Riiiggght.

ANYWAY! I just wanted to point out that the DM can do anything. All things are equal when the GM is rewriting the rules.

*open the door* *get on the floor* *accuse those walking the dinosaur of being a brainless herd* *check to see if any have been shamed into square dancing with me*

Riiiggght.

In short, I maintain that ANY BUILD OF ANY CLASS can become AMAZING if the GM invents a bunch of custom items for them to compensate for its every weakness. I would like you to explain how your argument is not a subset of this one.

I would ALSO like you to explain how a majority opinion is INHERENTLY wrong just because it is a MAJORITY opinion.

FINALLY, I would like you to answer HONESTLY if THESE ALL CAPS made my post more enjoyable or informative.

[RFLS]

Totally unclear here. The other question is whether the MIC is the primary source for magic items, or is the DMG? Because the DMG printed them first and the primary source rule says the DMG wins on magic item descriptions.

The primary source rule also says that "primary source involves book and topic precedence." I'd say that MIC has topic precedence in this case.

[eggynack]

The items duplicate effects that are magical but are not magic in and of themselves.

This is what you're trying to prove, so it doesn't really work as a premise.

This is why they function in an anti-magic field.

Maybe, or maybe not. There is no apparent evidence to show that relics not working in an AMF is necessarily related to the items being completely non-magical. As a non-traditional form of magic, relics would presumably have some immunity to factors that affect traditional magic.

The rest of the things you say aren't really arguments as such, so I'm not exactly sure how to address them.

[georgie_leech]

A tomato isn't a fruit in the traditional (colloquial) sense. It isn't generally eaten on its own, is considerably less sweet, and many people actually confuse them for vegetables.

However, they are in fact fruit, as any taxonomist can tell you. Thus, in a non-traditional (non-colloquial) sense, they are fruit.

Claiming that something "isn't X in the traditional sense" is in no way equivalent to "isn't X."

[JaronK]

Spells don't work in Antimagic Fields. Invoke Magic can be cast in a Antimagic Field and works perfectly.

So, Invoke Magic isn't a spell in the traditional sense, as it can be cast in an AMF.

Did I just state that Invoke Magic isn't a spell?

JaronK

[Andvare]

FINALLY, I would like you to answer HONESTLY if THESE ALL CAPS made my post more enjoyable or informative.

For what it's worth, I found your post more enjoyable because of it.

[Andvare]

Spells don't work in Antimagic Fields. Invoke Magic can be cast in a Antimagic Field and works perfectly.

So, Invoke Magic isn't a spell in the traditional sense, as it can be cast in an AMF.

Did I just state that Invoke Magic isn't a spell?

JaronK

It is also neither magic nor magical.

[Irk]

wait wait wait..

So visigani's argument is entirely dependent on the DM makin' stuff up?
It must be, cuz in the BoED, there are only 8 relics. You could have all of them, and you would till suck.

To echo everyone else, my VoP character now kicks ass, because the DM gave her a custom item of iwinthegame.

[ArqArturo]

It is also neither magic nor magical.

Antimagic Field is fueled by the power of Logic, Science, Psionics and Cheese.

[Theoboldi]

wait wait wait..

So visigani's argument is entirely dependent on the DM makin' stuff up?
It must be, cuz in the BoED, there are only 8 relics. You could have all of them, and you would till suck.

To echo everyone else, my VoP character now kicks ass, because the DM gave her a custom item of iwinthegame.

But you don't get it, man! This isn't about OPTIMISATION! Though I still don't get how exactly that works.

Seriously visigani, you haven't explained this to me. I really don't get it.

[mabriss lethe]

I cannot accidentally confuse Dave with being Dave. I can confuse Dave's brother Steve with being Dave.. because Steve isn't Dave.

Tell 'em Steve-Dave!

Also, I think this has been beaten into the ground. Let's compare two statements for further clarification:

1. Relics are not magic items.
2. Relics are not magic items in the traditional sense.

If the designers had meant relics to be completely nonmagical in nature, they would have been expressly called out as such using the first statement. They chose the second statement, and then elaborate at great length on the similarities and differences between them and a standard magical item.

As it stands, You have an critter that walks like a duck and looks like a duck, but doesn't quack like a duck. Would logic dictate that it's a deformed feathered platypus or would it dictate that it's some sort of duck with a speech impediment?

[Irk]

But you don't get it, man! This isn't about OPTIMISATION! Though I still don't get how exactly that works.

aw man, I thought I understood so well...

[Icewraith]

VoP's only purpose is to counteract the mechanical disadvantage characters incur by not partaking in the 3.5 magic item/wealth by level christmas tree effect rules, for whatever reason, character or otherwise. Motive is not a factor here.

Without magic items, most characters become unplayable or nearly so at higher levels in generic level-appropriate encounters. If VoP were entirely character fluff, there wouldn't be any rules regarding enhancement bonuses to stats etc. If we're talking about whether or not a character who takes VoP is as effective as a character using the standard rules, we're talking about optimization.

The issue with VoP is that it does not provide the character with beneficial effects such as flight necessary for most characters to function effectively after about fifth level and certainly by twelfth level.

Your proposed solution is that VoP characters can use relics.

But, relics are not ordinary (they are by definition rare), nor are they simple (they have effects duplicated by magic items, still ping detect good, gain damage effects when used against evil outsiders, and generally have unique backstories). They contain a large number of exceptions to the normal rules BUT even with all those exceptions, relics are not mentioned as being usable by VoP characters in the relics section or the VoP section of the book both were printed in. There are only a finite number of relics printed, all of which fail to provide VoP characters with the missing essential capabilities they forego without magic items and wealth by level. There are no rules for creating new relics, only guidelines on how to use them as treasure with the wealth by level system that VoP characters by definition eschew.

Your supposed solution to making VoP "not suck" is not RAW-legal because whatever relics are, they are clearly not appropriate for a VoP character. They are not simple, not ordinary, participate in the wealth by level treasure system and are not specifically allowed by the VoP rules- any one of those four points should be sufficient to kill the concept by itself.

Furthermore, your "solution" doesn't even solve the problem it is supposed to address without forcing the DM to resort to homebrew- which automatically disqualifies your solution from making VoP "not suck" because if the DM has to do extra work to make it "not suck", it sucks by definition.

[eggynack]

1. Relics are not magic items.
2. Relics are not magic items in the traditional sense.

Actually, your second statement isn't quite accurate. You see, it doesn't say that relics aren't magic items in the traditional sense. It says that relics aren't magic in the traditional sense. This means that relics aren't magic items, but that they are still magic, just as a fireball is magical without being a magic item. Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for this argument, the limitation put forth by VoP regarding magic requires that the VoP'er not have anything that is magical, rather than that he not have any magic item. Thus, the VoP'er can't use these.

[ArcturusV]

Now... I tend to consider myself a fairly reasonable man, for the most part. And even taking in the "It's Vow of POVERTY, not Vow of NONMAGICITY!" sort of line... Because something can't be bought, or sold, doesn't make it worthless. This has always been a RAW/RAI failure, where people do things like create Aleaxes because a god's eyelash isn't given a specific cost so clearly it's worthless and can pull an infinite amount out of their spell component pouch. But Relics don't even have that level of defense, as they do have a price tag associated with them.

The ability to just walk into a market and pawn off your Relic or not, doesn't make it "Worthless" or "Valueless". It has value, in the very real sense that people would want it (Like cults/religions that venerate those saints/powers). It's even within the RAI where it mentions under Voluntary Poverty that someone who swears such a vow would give their wealth to those who need it, or could use it to do good works.

Course you might argue "Well I do good works as an exalted adventurer"... but as long as you're talking RAI instead of RAW (Which the OP seems to be doing now), the spirit of the rule is about Self-Sacrifice, giving of yourself to others in order to attain spiritual as well as physical enlightenment. It's much, much, obviously closer to RAI that you give your Saint's Burial Shroud to some good aligned Temple where they can use it to cure the inflictions that ravage the good people of the populace. More than it is for you to selfishly use it for your own benefit.

[Ziegander]

VoP's only purpose is to counteract the mechanical disadvantage characters incur by not partaking in the 3.5 magic item/wealth by level christmas tree effect rules, for whatever reason, character or otherwise. Motive is not a factor here.

Without magic items, most characters become unplayable or nearly so at higher levels in generic level-appropriate encounters. If VoP were entirely character fluff, there wouldn't be any rules regarding enhancement bonuses to stats etc. If we're talking about whether or not a character who takes VoP is as effective as a character using the standard rules, we're talking about optimization.

The issue with VoP is that it does not provide the character with beneficial effects such as flight necessary for most characters to function effectively after about fifth level and certainly by twelfth level.

Your proposed solution is that VoP characters can use relics.

But, relics are not ordinary (they are by definition rare), nor are they simple (they have effects duplicated by magic items, still ping detect good, gain damage effects when used against evil outsiders, and generally have unique backstories). They contain a large number of exceptions to the normal rules BUT even with all those exceptions, relics are not mentioned as being usable by VoP characters in the relics section or the VoP section of the book both were printed in. There are only a finite number of relics printed, all of which fail to provide VoP characters with the missing essential capabilities they forego without magic items and wealth by level. There are no rules for creating new relics, only guidelines on how to use them as treasure with the wealth by level system that VoP characters by definition eschew.

Your supposed solution to making VoP "not suck" is not RAW-legal because whatever relics are, they are clearly not appropriate for a VoP character. They are not simple, not ordinary, participate in the wealth by level treasure system and are not specifically allowed by the VoP rules- any one of those four points should be sufficient to kill the concept by itself.

Furthermore, your "solution" doesn't even solve the problem it is supposed to address without forcing the DM to resort to homebrew- which automatically disqualifies your solution from making VoP "not suck" because if the DM has to do extra work to make it "not suck", it sucks by definition.

Don't worry. Even though I'm quoting this so that it's visible a second time, our homeboy, Visi is going to ignore it.

[Andvare]

Antimagic Field is fueled by the power of Logic, Science, Psionics and Cheese.

Cheddar?
Roquefort?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JaronK
The other question is whether the MIC is the primary source for magic items, or is the DMG? Because the DMG printed them first and the primary source rule says the DMG wins on magic item descriptions.

This particular example doesn't make sense to me. If the DMG takes precedence for magic items, why bother with the MIC?

And for that matter, since the MIC is mainly a compilation of magic items published in books throughout 3.0 and 3.5, wouldn't the MIC be overruled by those previous editions? Again, wouldn't this make the entire MIC redundant?

I'm not here to argue one way or another; I just don't grok the point you're making here. I seem to recall some standard boilerplate about later versions superseding prior printings, but your primary-source argument seems to take the opposite view.

[JaronK]

This particular example doesn't make sense to me. If the DMG takes precedence for magic items, why bother with the MIC?

Well, it gives you new magic items.

And for that matter, since the MIC is mainly a compilation of magic items published in books throughout 3.0 and 3.5, wouldn't the MIC be overruled by those previous editions? Again, wouldn't this make the entire MIC redundant?

Well, yes. Annoying, isn't it?

I'm not here to argue one way or another; I just don't grok the point you're making here. I seem to recall some standard boilerplate about later versions superseding prior printings, but your primary-source argument seems to take the opposite view.

I'm just stating what the rules say. There's absolutely no boilerplate about later version superseding prior printings. Never has been. A lot of people assume it exists, but it doesn't.

JaronK

[Icewraith]

Generally speaking, whenever a source claims to be authoratative it is only authoritative up until a new source is printed.

In things like enginering standards documents, where this is quite often a thing, the new authoratative sources often provide a handy list of old recently authoratative documents they have precedence over. That's not the case here, but IIRC MiC claims overall authority in that it claims it has updated prices for items in other books that were overpriced. In that specific instance at least, anywhere the MiC conflicts with older (ideally identical) items, it has authority.

The trick comes where things change not only in price but also in ability. If they are completely overriden some of the relics are gone, if not we have two sets of relics rules, one of which is recent and probably the "preferred' reading, but not completely authoritative by RAW.