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    Default Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    1) We all know about the linear fighter/quadratic wizard imbalance when at any two levels over 4 the wizard gains 5 spell slots and lots of known spells while the fighter gains only a single feat. The wizard ends with 50+ slots while the fighter ends with 11 feats.

    2) Fighter feats were supposed to be the fighter's class features. He only gets 11 of them, leaving dead levels, and even the levels where a feat is gained are uninteresting because fighter feats are static bonuses. Even the Pathfinder fighter doesn't really fix that.

    3) Fighter feats give quite limited, quite weak options. A single strong buff will be better than all of a fighter's feats for any character levels beyond 4 or so. In addition, magic feats are much better than any fighter feats - just compare most Item Creation or Metamagic feats to Fighter feats i.e. Persistent Spell vs Weapon Specialization.

    In short, the Fighter is hosed as we all know. Thus I present the following feats that scale by level and are essentially class abilities for the fighter class that give appropriately high bonuses to high-level fighters;


    GENERAL RULES
    All the following feats are fighter bonus feats.
    If a feat refers to your "fighter feats" it means "feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats, which you gained directly from class bonus feats, race, flaws and level advancement but not other sources such as spells, items, rituals, achievements, use of special abilities, feat use, powers and any other means that would give more feats than normal."


    Advanced Weapon Focus
    Prerequisites: Fighter lvl 1 OR two fighter feats
    Effect: You gain weapon focus for a number of weapons equal to your number of fighter feats. If you aren't proficient with said weapons you also become proficient with them. For every 5 fighter feats you possess you gain the benefit of an additional feat of your choice from the weapon focus chain for those weapons. Those feats are greater weapon focus, improved critical, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization
    Special: You can take this feat multiple times, choosing additional weapons to apply its effects to.

    Advanced Martial Technique
    Prerequisites: Fighter lvl 1 OR two fighter feats
    Effect: You gain the benefit of a single non-scaling combat feat or general you meet the prerequisites for. For every 5 fighter feats you possess, you gain the benefits on an additional non-scaling combat or general feat.
    Special: You can take this feat multiple times, gaining the benefit of additional feats.

    Advanced Martial Training
    Prerequisites: four fighter feats
    Effect: For every 2 fighter feats you possess you gain one ToB maneuver known and readied. You must meet maneuver and initiator level prerequisites to learn a maneuver, though you can have lower-level maneuvers in the same feat as the prerequisites for the higher-level ones. Your initiator level is equal to your number of fighter feats. You recover maneuvers expended as per a swordsage.
    Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, learning additional maneuvers. You may pick a maneuver more than once, allowing you to ready it more than once.

    Advanced Martial Stance
    Prerequisites: four fighter feats
    Effect: For every 4 fighter feats you possess you learn one ToB martial stance you meet the prerequisites for.
    Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, learning additional stances.

    True Aim
    Prerequisites: four fighter feats
    Effect: For every fighter feat you possess your melee and ranged attacks can penetrate a barrier 1 inch thick and still strike an enemy taking cover behind it. Alternatively, for every 4 fighter feats you possess you may reroll miss chances due to concealment, incorporeality or magical effects and take the best roll.

    Improved Toughness
    Prerequisites: fighter lvl 1 or four fighter feats
    Effect: You gain 3 extra hit points per fighter feat you possess and Fast Healing 1 for every 7 fighter feats you possess.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The effects stack.

    Improved Resilience
    Prerequisites: four fighter feats
    Effect: For every four fighter feats you possess reduce each ability damage, ability drain, ability penalty or negative level effect by 1 to a minimum of 0.

    Improved Resistance
    Prerequisites: ten fighter feats
    Effect: Reduce any damage taken of any type or source by 1 per fighter feat you possess, to a minimum of 0.

    Improved Defense
    Prerequisites: fighter lvl 1 OR two fighter feats
    Effect: you gain a competence bonus to AC equal to the number of fighter feats you possess. It doesn't stack with armor bonuses.
    Special: if you have 5 or more fighter feats, you also gain a 5% chance to dodge attacks and targeted effects per fighter feat you possess, to a maximum of 75% chance for 15 feats.

    Instant Parry
    Prerequisites: eight fighter feats
    Effect: Against any attack that requires an attack roll aimed at you you may roll an opposed attack roll with any weapon or shield you are holding. If you use your shield, add the shield's enhancement bonus and shield focus (if any) to the roll. If your roll is greater than the attacker's roll, the attack is blocked, parried, deflected or otherwise pushed aside harmlessly. You cannot use this feat against attacks you lose your dexterity bonus against.

    Intuition
    Prerequisites: eight fighter feats, perception 8 ranks
    Effect: After years of lonely watches as a sentry or guardsman you have a sixth sense for secrets. Against hidden (via stealth, magic, concealment or other means) creatures or objects within 20 ft per fighter feat you possess make an unmodified perception check against their unmodified stealth/sleight of hand checks (if hidden via skill or the environment) or the unmodified caster/manifester/initiator level check (if hidden via other effects). If successful, you can pinpoint creatures within your range and know that an object has been hidden. You do not know what object has been hidden and hidden creatures still have any concealment or cover they'd normally get against you but you are not considered surprised or flat-footed against them.
    Special: Failed intuition checks are retried every time a creature takes an action or every time an object is used. You do not get to retry against inactive creatures or objects.

    Combat Mobility
    Prerequisites: four fighter feats
    Effect: You have a number of points per round equal to your number of fighter feats. You may, as a free action, expend a point to get an additional 5-ft-step or increase your speed for the round by 5 ft.
    Special: If you have Combat Swiftness and/or Combat Surge, add up the points to a single common point pool that all of them can use.

    Combat Swiftness
    Prerequisites: eight fighter feats
    Effect: You have a number of points per round equal to your number of fighter feats. You may, as a free action, expend eight points to get an additional move action or standard action for the round. The move action can only be used for martial or mundane actions, not supernatural abilities and the standard action can only be used for attacks. You may not take a full-round action in any round in which you got additional attacks.
    Special: If you have Combat Mobility and/or Combat Surge, add up the points to a single common point pool that all of them can use.

    Combat Surge
    Prerequisites: twelve fighter feats
    Effect: You have a number of points per round equal to your number of fighter feats. You may, as free action, expend fifteen points to perform an action that would normally be a move or standard action. The move action can only be used for martial or mundane actions, not supernatural abilities and the standard action can only be used for attacks. Combat Surge can be used to interrupt other actions when it is not your turn.
    Special: If you have Combat Swiftness and/or Combat Mobility, add up the points to a single common point pool that all of them can use.

    Defiance
    Prerequisites: eight fighter feats
    Effect: You have a number of points equal to your number of fighter feats. Whenever you are affected by an attack or effect requiring a fortitude save you may expend a number of points equal to the effect's level and succeed on your save without rolling. You must make the decision to expend points after you learn the effect's level but before you roll for any saves. Spent points regenerate at a rate of 1 point per round.
    Special: If you have Determination and/or Withstand add up the points to a single common point pool that all of them can use. If you have all three, you may negate effects that do not allow a saving throw by expending twice their level in points; if you do any damage is halved and other effects are negated entirely. You may not negate effects that don't have levels such as normal attacks or feats.

    Determination
    Prerequisites: twelve fighter feats
    Effect: You have a number of points equal to your number of fighter feats. Whenever you are affected by an attack or effect requiring a will save you may expend a number of points equal to the effect's level and succeed on your save without rolling. You must make the decision to expend points after you learn the effect's level but before you roll for any saves. Spent points regenerate at a rate of 1 point per round.
    Special: If you have Defiance and/or Withstand add up the points to a single common point pool that all of them can use. If you have all three, you may negate effects that do not allow a saving throw by expending twice their level in points; if you do any damage is halved and other effects are negated entirely. You may not negate effects that don't have levels such as normal attacks or feats.

    Withstand
    Prerequisites: eight fighter feats
    Effect: You have a number of points equal to your number of fighter feats. Whenever you are affected by an attack or effect requiring a reflex save you may expend a number of points equal to the effect's level and succeed on your save without rolling. You must make the decision to expend points after you learn the effect's level but before you roll for any saves. Spent points regenerate at a rate of 1 point per round.
    Special: If you have Determination and/or Defiance add up the points to a single common point pool that all of them can use. If you have all three, you may negate effects that do not allow a saving throw by expending twice their level in points; if you do any damage is halved and other effects are negated entirely. You may not negate effects that don't have levels such as normal attacks or feats.

    Mounted Knight
    Prerequisites: four fighter feats
    Effect: you have a trained animal mount of a CR equal to your number of fighter feats. The mount must be at least one size category larger than you and suitable for riding. Animal mounts obey simple, one-word commands. If you have eight fighter feats or more, you may choose a magical beast instead of an animal for a mount. Magical beast mounts may understand more than simple commands if they have high intelligence. If you have twelve fighter feats or more, you may select a Dragon mount. Dragon mounts are fully intelligent allies rather than pets.
    Special: If a mount is slain you may replace it after 1 day per CR of the new mount, or whenever an opportunity arises at the DM's discretion, whichever comes first.

    Weaponsmith
    Prerequisites: four fighter feats
    Effect: Using exotic materials from innately magical ores to body parts of supernatural creatures to energy-infused gemstones to reprocessing existing magic items you may craft magic arms and armor as well as wondrous items that are articles of clothing, armor or jewelry, without needing to be a spellcaster or needing to know specific spells. You must pay for materials or use up existing precious metals/gems or magic items equal to the forged items' full value but you have no XP expenditure. You may forge 300 gp worth of such items per day per fighter feat you possess.
    Special: You must still make the relevant craft skill checks to make the base item a masterwork item for weapons or armor, usually Craft: Metalworking. You may take this feat multiple times. The amount of magic items you can forge per day stacks.

    Warlord
    Prerequisites: ten fighter feats
    Effect: You are a warlord, general, knight lord, king or other figure of authority that can gather and command armies. In an 8-hour period you spend with your contacts, tribe, domain or position of power you may gather a number of followers equal to the square of the fighter feats you possess. Each follower can be up to a CR equal to 1/4 the fighter feats you possess. You may gather fewer followers than normal, in proportionately smaller time. I.e. if you could gather 100 followers in 8 hours, you could get a single follower in 5 minutes. Once called, followers remain until dismissed. Followers have mundane equipment only (not NPC wealth) they will not part with and can participate in 1 encounter per day. A Warlord may command a number of different armies equal to his charisma modifier.
    Special: You may take this feat more than once, representing multiple sources of followers. The number of armies you can field stacks. You can gather followers from multiple sources at the same time. If an army you gathered is slain or decisively defeated, reduce your effective rank of Warlord by 1 for this source for 1 month. Enemies may take up (and potentially succeed in) quests to remove or destroy your source of followers. You may get a new source of followers by succeeding on a quest of your own.
    Last edited by Belial_the_Leveler; 2013-10-24 at 10:09 AM.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    1) None of these fights are listed as available as Fighter Bonus feats. You may want to fix that.

    2) How many of these feats do you expect a Fighter to take? How many free feats do you expect a Fighter to be getting? Do you expect a Fighter to take 18 out of 20 of these feats by blowing all of his feats on them, and turn that into 45 or so feats? Or do you expect the Fighter to take a handful and pick up normal feats for the rest?

    3) Is there a reason AWF doesn't include PHB2 feats?
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    In short, the Fighter is hosed as we all know. Thus I present the following feats that scale by level and are essentially class abilities for the fighter class that give appropriately high bonuses to high-level fighters;
    I like the effort. 20 feats is a lot to go through, so I'll look at a few at a time.

    quote]Advanced Weapon Focus
    Prerequisites: Fighter lvl 1
    Effect: You gain weapon focus for a number of weapons equal to your number of fighter-only feats. [/quote]

    Wait, do you mean "Fighter bonus feats", or the fighter-only feats you're writing here? Because except for Weapon Specialization, there aren't a lot of PHB feats that are Fighter-only.

    For every 5 fighter-only feats you possess you gain the benefit of an additional feat of your choice from the weapon focus chain for those weapons.
    I see this becoming a record-keeping mess. "Wait, you have Weapon Focus: Battleaxe. Did you take that as a feat, or do you just have the benefit of that feat?

    Why not just make it 5 Fighter levels? Or 5 levels in [List of Fighter-ish classes]?

    Advanced Martial Technique
    Prerequisites: Fighter lvl 1
    Effect: You gain the benefit of a single non-scaling combat feat you meet the prerequisites for. For every 5 fighter-only feats you possess, you gain the benefits on an additional non-scaling combat feat.
    Special: You can take this feat multiple times, gaining the benefit of additional combat feats. The individual bonuses of this feat don't count as multiple feats for the purposes of scaling fighter feats.
    So I take AMT at Fighter level 1, and I pick Dodge, because whatever. Then at level (1, 2, 4, 6, 8) 8 I get to pick another feat, let's say Manyshot. But Manyshot doesn't count towards my accounting of "fighter only feats"?

    I think it would be a lot more elegant to dump the "fighter only feats" mechanism and just count fighter levels, give fighters a feat every level, or something. Because you're setting up a list of feats, a list of fighter-only feats, and another list of feats that the fighter has the benefits of but doesn't count towards his totals.

    More later, probably. You put a lot of work in, you deserve some kind of a comment on each feat, hopefully I won't be the only one going through th elist.

    Warlord
    I like the idea of the Warlord feat, but I don't know that it fits into most murderhobo campaigns.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Or possibly adding some of these in as class features?

    Example:

    Weapon Focus: At first level, choose a weapon. The fighter gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls made with the chosen weapon. At level three, and every third level afterwards, the fighter may select an additional weapon. In addition, upon selecting a new weapon, the fighter may increase any of his previous weapons chosen by an additional +1.

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    YAAY im not the sole person on GiTP that creates caling feats.. now watcxh these feast get praise while i still get hated on for scaling feats...

    anyways I like this.

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    YAAY im not the sole person on GiTP that creates caling feats.. now watcxh these feast get praise while i still get hated on for scaling feats...

    anyways I like this.
    You're far from the only one. Designing scaling feats is something that I distinctly remember being done a decade ago on the WotC forums, and different people have tried it on and off since then. I'm not a fan of the design in general. Especially since the usual approach for scaling feats is stuff like "Weapon focus increases by +1 every 4 levels" or "Gain more attacks as you increase in level" and so on.

    The main thing that struck me as interesting about this particular implementation was originally reading "Fighter only feat" as "Fighter bonus feat", which could lead to seriously exponential returns, especially with a few more feats along the same lines as Advanced Weapon Focus (so one feat gets you 4 more, which lets a couple other feats get you more feats, and they all just feed into each other for a metric ton of random feats).

    It's still not really enough (It's been said that every feat in the game on one character wouldn't push that character past high tier4/low tier 3), but the Martial Adept feats grant initiation comparable to a swordsage, and some of the other benefits are pretty nice. I could easily see the feats here expanded to include more out of combat benefits along the same lines as Intuition to give some extra out of combat utility.
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    true, but whne you give scaling feast that are roughly equal to actual class features..

    I think it does a half decent job of maybe pushing the fighter up a 'tier'

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Advanced Martial Training
    Effect: For every 2 fighter-only feats you possess you gain one ToB maneuver known and readied. You must meet maneuver and initiator level prerequisites to learn a maneuver, though you can have lower-level maneuvers in the same feat as the prerequisites for the higher-level ones. Your initiator level is equal to your number of fighter-only feats. You recover maneuvers expended as per a swordsage.
    Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, learning additional maneuvers. You may pick a maneuver more than once, allowing you to ready it more than once.
    I think I like this. More exactly, I like the idea of using Feats to swipe Tome of Battle maneuvers. Less happy about the "every N FOF" mechanic, of course.

    Advanced Martial Stance
    Effect: For every 4 fighter-only feats you possess you learn one ToB martial stance you meet the prerequisites for.
    I think I like this, but I still have to read Tome of Battle.

    Deadly Aim
    Effect: For every fighter-only feat you possess your melee and ranged attacks can penetrate a barrier 1 inch thick and still strike an enemy taking cover behind it. Alternatively, for every 4 fighter-only feats you possess you may reroll miss chances due to concealment, incorporeality or magical effects and take the better roll.
    First, PAthfinder has Deadly Aim (trade-off +1 to hit for +2 damage).
    Second, this sounds more like two feats. The reroll feat sounds good, mundane badassery overcoming magic.

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    true, but whne you give scaling feast that are roughly equal to actual class features..

    I think it does a half decent job of maybe pushing the fighter up a 'tier'
    Yeah. And there are several feats here (and maybe in yours. If I've read yours I honestly can't remember it) that are genuinely interesting. I already called out Intuition as one I liked but a few others that I found good were the Defiance/Determination/Withstand line [though I will note: Sometimes the level of an effect isn't clear. May want to pick a different criteria for cost.], the Combat Mobility/Swiftness/Surge line [here a nitpick is you can technically use a free action off turn, and Surge being an immediate interrupt that doesn't actually cost an action is awkward. Either make it an actual action cost, or make them both free actions with Swiftness explicitly not costing an action]. Also as mentioned I like that Advanced Weapon Focus acts as a vehicle to get you more Fighter-only feats, which creates an interesting synergy and reason to pick it up beyond the normal hit/damage bonuses.
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Yes the initiatve to get more fighter bonus feats is a great idea.
    both in making a basic feat be menaingful throughout your entire career and
    as a way to make getting more fighter feats look attractive. though soem feats are abit too match intenisve for my tastes (see warlord) but they are all good feats.


    my list of fighters feats is semi incomplete im still deciding on if i wan to incude my weapon focus line, archery, shield and two weapon lines.

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    @language
    Gaah, I shouldn't be writing stuff in the witching hour then copy-pasting the next day without checking. Especially if they're fighter stuff - the witches tend to jinx those!
    Anyway, replace "fighter-only-feats" by "feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats". I'll do that plus any other language corrections soon.

    @progression/number of feats
    1) I am expecting Fighters to usually get the scaling feats -even for their normal feat slots- because that benefits them more. For example, there's no reason a Fighter would get Manyshot when they could get "Advanced Martial Technique" and nail Point-Blank Shot, Manyshot and Precise Shot at the cost of a single feat. That is intentional - even when getting the same non-scaling feats as everybody else the fighter is supposed to use his feat slots more efficiently and, for example, get the entire Two-Weapon-Fighting chain in a single slot if they're high enough level.
    2) A 3.5 fighter could get a normal maximum of 18 feats. A Pathfinder fighter could get a normal maximum of 21 feats. Being human, using Flaws and a few other ways could increase those totals to 22 and 25 respectively.
    This means that, for example, a Fighter that only got "Advanced Martial Technique" 21 times would effectively have over a hundred non-scaling feats by lvl 20 while a Fighter that got "Advanced Martial Training" 15 times and "Advanced Martial Stance" 6 times would have learned 150 maneuvers and 30 stances by 20th level. Of course, those are kind of extreme examples and are frankly less interesting than a more balanced choice.

    @PHB2/other sources
    The reason such sources are not referenced where they could be is that I wanted to base the homebrew only on a limited number of sources. No reason you can't add such feats on your own though.


    @tier
    In direct combat? I'd be willing to play this fighter against a CoDzilla or Incantatrix. He might even win. The issue with tiers is that there is a bazillion of non-combat stuff needed to be done to be a high tier.


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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post

    Improved Toughness
    Prerequisites: four fighter-only feats
    Effect: You gain 3 extra hit points per fighter-only feat you possess and Fast Healing 1 for every 7 fighter-only feats you possess.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The effects stack.
    This feat is really tied into your count-your-feats scaling system, which I'm not fond of. 3 extra hit points per two levels is like a +3 to Con, which is too much for a feat, in my opinion. Fast Healing 1 at Fighter 10, that I can live with, but I think that sort of thing is a perfect candidate for a feat tax. Toughness and Great Fortitude would make sense. They're not feats you'd take on their own merits, but they're conceptually related. Is Fast HEaling 1 worth 3 feats? Maybe 2 feats, so just require Toughness and Fighter 10 or 10 levels in full BAB classes as the prerequisite.

    Improved Resilience
    Prerequisites: four fighter-only feats
    Effect: For every four fighter-only feats you possess reduce each ability damage, ability drain, ability penalty or negative level effect by 1 to a minimum of 0.
    I've gotta say no. Limited Negative Energy Protection, limited ability score-damage/drain resistance? In one feat? So at fighter 12, you blow off the first 3 negative levels or points of ability damage/drain?

    I say no. Sorry.

    Improved Resistance
    Prerequisites: ten fighter-only feats
    Effect: Reduce any damage of any type or source by 1 per fighter-only feat you possess, to a minimum of 0.
    Damage Resistance as a feat I say Aye, as a scaling feat I say Nay. As a stackable feat I say Aye.

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    3 extra hit points per two levels is like a +3 to Con, which is too much for a feat, in my opinion.
    Is it too much for a class ability though? 1 fighter feat translates into 5 spell slots if you count how many of them each class has and compare. Low-level spells could easily give +4 to an ability score. Mid-level spells, compare with Heal (up to 150 hp worth of healing). High-level spells compare with Giant Size from 3.5, which gives up to +12 constitution (in addition to that +32 strength).

    I say no. Sorry.
    I direct you to these Paizo monk abilities. Monks get some 20ish abilities over the whole class and still end up significantly underpowered compared with casters;
    Extreme Endurance (Ex)
    At 5th level, a martial artist gains immunity to fatigue. At 10th level, he also gains immunity to exhaustion. At 15th level, he gains immunity to stunning. At 20th level, he gains immunity to death effects and energy drain.

    Physical Resistance (Ex)
    At 7th level, if a martial artist suffers any effect that causes ability damage, ability drain, or temporary ability score penalties, the effect is reduced by 1 point. This reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 7th (to a maximum reduction of 5 at 19th level).


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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    I direct you to these Paizo monk abilities. Monks get some 20ish abilities over the whole class and still end up significantly underpowered compared with casters;
    I think comparing them to the Tier 1-2 casters is the wrong measuring stick. On the one hand, the primary casters are overpowered. On the other hand, nothing you can do is going to close the gap.

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    The scaling on feats would be exponential, in fact. Quick exemple:

    I'm a human fighter level 1, and i took 1 flaw for a bonus feat, thus having 4 feats at level 1. I take Advanced Martial Technique 4 times, thus gaining 4 non scaling fighter bonus feats. I then spend those on non scaling things (not really the issue here, in fact the non scaling part slightly reduce the insanity, but...). As I now have 8 fight feats, i get 1 non scaling bonus feat for each advanced martial training i have, so 4 more, bringing it to 12, so 4 more, bringing it to 16, so 4 more again... I can now have 24 feats at level 1.

    Ok, not all GM allow to take a flaw, without one it makes just 9 feats.

    Making it simple : if you can have 5 Advanced Martial training, you basically have infinite number of fighter feats, because just having those give you 1 bonus feat from each... infinity!

    Well, you'll run out of fighter feats really quick. But then, once that setting in place, you can just take the scaling feats (you couldn't take any earlier) and have (let's say there is exactly 210 fighter feats (not sure if that's even near from the number in any direction : probably too much anyway, but that's a multiple of 2-3-5-7 just in case of needed simplification)) +630 bonus HP, with fast healing 30, 210 auto saves (or slightly less auto out of no saves effects), you get 105 maneuvers, with an IL of 210 (O-o) and 52 stances (more than the number of existing stances), the full chain weapon focus on any weapon (but you probably all have those anyway, as they are non scaling), super DR (not written as DR, thus even epic things bypassing DR aren't getting through) of 210, 52 reduction on every ability reducing effect, +210 to AC (may be enough to defend yourself then) and 75% miss chance (scaling with regular miss chance, as non stated as miss chance), you have a CR 210 mount (O_o again) , you craft too many things per day, have an insane number of followers (all higher level than you, infinite combo if they are fighter too)...

    Any of those options would be considered broken at level 15-20 (and not broken in a good way, you're just using numbers to improve the fighter) but you just have to be level 4 (let's say without flaws) to have the first option you want among those... yay 4th level fighter using all maneuvers or with 630 hp and fast healing 30...

    Don't take me wrong, you're up to something here, but there is some issues.
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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Making it simple : if you can have 5 Advanced Martial training, you basically have infinite number of fighter feats, because just having those give you 1 bonus feat from each... infinity!
    Quick fix: Martial Training can be taken at most twice.

    Alternatively: It can only be taken once, but also include one that works like the Weapon Focus, but for Armor (letting you pick up the armor specialization/optimization feats from various sources).

    Basically I think 3 of these feats that give feats is about the sweet spot for interaction without giving infinite amounts of free stuff.
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow
    Basically I think 3 of these feats that give feats is about the sweet spot for interaction without giving infinite amounts of free stuff.
    I think the whole mechanism is unnecessary. If you think Fighters don't get enough feats, just say "Fighters get a bonus feat (or just an extra feat) every level instead of every other level." Simple >>> complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Improved Defense
    Prerequisites: fighter lvl 1
    Effect: you gain a defense bonus to AC equal to the number of fighter-only feats you possess. It doesn't stack with armor bonuses but applies against all attacks, including touch attacks.
    Special: if you have 5 or more fighter-only feats, you also gain a 5% chance to dodge attacks and targeted effects per fighter-only feat you possess, to a maximum of 75% chance for 15 feats.
    Improved Defense. I'm translating your count-the-feats mechanism into "1/2 Fighter levels". You had Fighter 1 as a prerequisite--I think you meant to allow dipping. I don't know.

    Part 1. You get a defense bonus of say 1/2 Fighter level, which doesn't stack with your armor. Aha, this applies only (OK mostly) against touch attacks. I think I like that. You're crafty and canny and experienced, and touch attacks are a common enough threat. Could we rewrite this as "A defense bonus to your Touch AC"? Is there even such a thing as a "defense bonus"? Maybe it should be either a shield bonus, if the fighter is carrying a shield, or a dodge bonus. OK, just checked, and shield bonuses don't apply to touch attacks. (So there's a follow-on feat right there for my Be Awesome With a Shield chain).

    Screw it, let's call it a "luck bonus to touch AC". Fluff quote about luck being what happens when preparation meets execution or something.

    Part 2, I'm hazy on exactly what's covered under "attacks and targeted effects."

    Instant Parry
    Prerequisites: eight fighter-only feats
    Effect: Against any attack that requires an attack roll aimed at you you may roll an opposed attack roll with any weapon or shield you are holding. Do not add the bonus from weapon focus to this roll but do add the shield's enhancement bonus (if any). If your roll is greater than the attacker's roll, the attack is blocked, parried, deflected or otherwise pushed aside harmlessly. You cannot use this feat against attacks you lose your dexterity bonus against for whatever reason.
    Instant Parry. This doubles the die rolling for every attack against the fighter with the feat, which isn't an especially good thing. Parrying should probably have an opportunity cost, which this doesn't. I like by BAW-TWF and BAW-Shield better, which let you sacrifice attack potential for defense in a way that scales. Those just add a number to your AC, instead of requiring yet another d20 roll.

    And why shouldn't Weapon Focus apply all of a sudden?

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    I think the whole mechanism is unnecessary. If you think Fighters don't get enough feats, just say "Fighters get a bonus feat (or just an extra feat) every level instead of every other level." Simple >>> complicated.
    Complicated isn't always bad. Interactions like that create more interesting choices. Also remember the OP specifies "Quadratic feats", this sort of thing is basically the definition of quadratic growth. It was the one unique and interesting thing in this thread. Remove it and it could be any number of other similar attempted fixes. aka boring.
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Reason for count-the-feats mechanism:
    Those feats are intended as fighter feats primarily but should still be useful for other classes heavy on combat feats. If I tied the bonuses only on Fighter Level then nobody else could really benefit. But you're right that the language needs to be clarified.

    On infinite feats:
    It would be sweet if it did work like that, right? Problem is, that would be broken - a character with all the normal feats in the game is omnipotent, let alone scaling ones. I need to fix the language on that. Maybe insert some sort of interaction between scaling and non-scaling feats.

    On what "quadratic" in the title meant:
    Each feat scales. Your number of feats increases. And the bonuses of the feats combine very well. In the end, a fighter that takes them should scale as well as or better than spellcasters in combat (and I probably need to test that against CoDzillas and stuff).





    Utility feats
    You guys have any ideas for such? Intuition, Warlord, Weaponsmith and Mounted Knight are the only ones I got so far.


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  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Without getting into the details of each feat, I would say two things. One, if your point is to boost up the fighter, make the feat prerequisites be N fighter levels rather than N fighter feats. Have the feats still scale with 'total number of feats of the fighter-bonus-feat type'. After all, a big problem with the fighter is, they can't fundamentally do anything that only they get to do - add a feat and both the fighter and CoDzilla can take it.

    The second thing is, I wouldn't have feats you can take more than once. The nice thing about the quadratic scaling is that it allows you to make a versatile character without sacrificing power elsewhere. Martial types usually suffer from the fact that they have to really push one number up, and other things tend to fall by the wayside. But if taking Improved Disarm also boosted their attack bonus, AC, and Reflex saves by 1/2, then they get a bit more slack with their individual choices. If you can take, e.g., the damage reduction feat 20 times, it becomes tempting to do a build that only takes the DR feat and is untouchable, but can't do anything else.

    I would also avoid 'feats that grant feats' as their scaling. Mostly I just think its kind of lazy design and it brings up these infinite loops.

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Reason for count-the-feats mechanism:
    Those feats are intended as fighter feats primarily but should still be useful for other classes heavy on combat feats. If I tied the bonuses only on Fighter Level then nobody else could really benefit. But you're right that the language needs to be clarified.
    Then I'd recommend using "X or more levels in full Base Attack Bonus classes." Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Rangers, Warrior gestalts.

    If you think a high-level melee-oriented Cleric should qualify, then use "BAB +N or more."

    Did you have any you wanted to share with the Rogue? You could define "Mundane classes" as any that don't cast spells at 1st level.

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Well, giving more feats to the fighter is an option that could work... but i think first thing to do should be to increase the effectiveness of feats, and their versatility.
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    I'm going to reiterate that I like the feats that grant feats, explicitly because of their self-reinforcing properties.

    As a suggestion: Limit them. Give each feat that grants other feats a specific tag, and allow 1 per 6 fighter levels. So at level 6 you grab one. At 12 you get a second. At 18th you get a third.

    This emphasizes those levels as big power jump levels, because you pick up one of these feats, and instantly get several new feats at once (more at higher levels), and also power up all of your other feats a significant amount.

    But this way you can come up with any number of feats that grant feats, or allow one of those feats to be taken multiple times, and not break the game with any infinite loops.
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Call Scaling Feats "Combat Talents".

    Your "Combat Talent" level is equal to (# of Combat Talents) + (1/2 BaB). Note that I'm not counting feats, but "Combat Talent"s.

    "Gain Combat Talent" is a feat that qualifies as a Fighter Bonus Feat, and can be taken multiple times.

    Now your feats-that-grant-feats say "any Fighter Bonus Feat except Gain Combat Talent".

    Scaling analysis:

    Full BaB non-fighters who only pick "Combat Talent"s have 7 by level 20, so have a Combat Talent Level of 17.

    If they scale linearly with CTL, this is a "total power budget" of 7*17=119 units.

    Fighters who only pick "Combat Talent"s have another 11 "Combat Talent"s (total of 18), for a Combat Talent level of 28. If they scale linearly with CTL, this is a budget of 504 units.

    Wizards and other half-BaB classes who pick one "Combat Talent" have a "Combat Talent" level of 6, for a budget of 6.

    ...

    "Advanced Weapon Focus" suggestion: Every 3-5 CTLs, you get to pick a new weapon, or extend it from a weapon to an entire weapon group, for free. Every 3-5 CTL, gain another feat from a list.

    ...

    "Mounted Knight" -- I'd steal from Druid Animal Companion type rules, with maybe a less restricted list. You can make a check to tame a mount (no more than one success every X days, and you lose your old mount if you succeed). The mount gains scaling bonuses based off your CTL, like a druid animal companion does, but maybe not instantly (ie, it gains at most a notch every day).

    ...

    Of course, this kind of thing is a lot of work: if you want them to be real class feature scale abilities, they need to be real class feature scale abilities.

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Wow, why didn't I think of calling them "combat talents" before? I mean, some of the ideas for them came out of Star Wars SAGA where they're explicitly called "talents". Great idea - it solves all the issues with the wording.


    BTW guys, what do you think of the following updated or new talents;

    Advanced Martial Technique
    Prerequisites: Fighter lvl 1 OR two combat talents
    Effect: You gain a feat slot. For every 5 talents you possess, you gain another feat slot. You can fill in those slots with any combat feats you meet the prerequisites for. Filling an empty slot or changing the feat that fills it requires 15 minutes of sparring, practicing katas, martial meditation or other similar exercise requiring a calm, nonhostile environment.
    Special: You can take this talent multiple times, gaining additional feat slots.

    Endurance Conditioning
    Prerequisites: three combat talents
    Effect: Extensive conditioning has given you a significant increase in stamina, allowing you to employ martial techniques more often than normal. You gain a number of points per encounter equal to 1/4 your number of talents. Whenever you'd expend a use of a limited-use combat feat or martial class ability, you may expend one of these points instead. Examples of things this talent could be used on include the Stunning Fist feat, monk abilities like quivering palm or abundant step, barbarian rage, rogue talents like defensive roll and so on.
    Special: You can take this talent multiple times, gaining additional points.

    Recognized Authority
    Prerequisites: three talents, character level 8th, nonchaotic alignment
    Effect: You have a significant measure of authority through political means, noble station, powerful connections, favor exchanges and other non-monetary, non-magical assets that are recognized by authority figures even if your presence or station officially may not. Once per day per three talents you possess you may be granted the cooperation of lawful authorities. If the service required can be provided by individuals with total CR equal to or less than your own and with at most one encounter's worth of effort for each of them, the service is assumed to be paid by background interests and favor exchanges someone of your station employs. If the service required is more involved and long-lasting, you are expected to give equal services in return or sufficient payment.
    Special: This talent is the ability to effectively use personal fame/power to get others to perform your bidding but does not confer magical control over others, forcing them to do things against their nature. It could get some guards to turn a blind eye as you escape from prison in exchange for background favors but not to risk their lives without significant reward. It could get an evil individual released from the paladins' custody through lawful pressure but not have the paladins actually do evil. The DM should give you services on par with what a temporary ally (magical or otherwise) could get you but beware of asking too much. Authority abused can be quickly broken.


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  26. - Top - End - #26
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    I don't see why the last is for non-chaotic only (meaning i don't see why chaotic people couldn't have their own version of that one). Either make one for non lawfull people or turn the wording into "authorities or organisation" instead of "lawfull authorities"
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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Recognized Authority
    I've been thinking about something like this, but it's very hard to write rules for. I was thinking that (assuming a low density of high level characters) warrior-types would have "Renown", a degree of celebrity scaled to their level and publicly known accomplishments. I would build in a cultural bias toward fighter-types--they are the ones risking their lives without (much) benefit of magic, they are the ones in the shiny armor, they are the ones who the soldier-lords prefer to talk to as "fellow professionals." Presuming that adventurers enjoy the respect and gratitude of the populace for keeping the various monster menaces at bay, the meatshields would get the lions' share of that gratitude.

    But that doesn't apply to all settings, and doesn't especially apply to the generic D&D setting...

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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    It's not so much that there is a cultural bias towards fighters as (it is assumed) that fighters give mundane things and situations the majority of their time whereas spellcasters need to invest their time in the arcane arts, religious mysteries and experimentation with their innate powers (if any) to develop their abilities.

    Also, a spellcaster is far more likely to use a planar binding or dominate than try political maneuvering to get allies. If you could get an ally with a spell, would you also expend considerable effort to learn how to do it without spells?


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    Default Re: Quadratic Fighter Feats [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    It's not so much that there is a cultural bias towards fighters as (it is assumed) that fighters give mundane things and situations the majority of their time whereas spellcasters need to invest their time in the arcane arts, religious mysteries and experimentation with their innate powers (if any) to develop their abilities.
    I'm not sure that the wizard necessarily spends more time with his books than the fighter does practicing with weapons (when not adventuring).

    Also, a spellcaster is far more likely to use a planar binding or dominate than try political maneuvering to get allies. If you could get an ally with a spell, would you also expend considerable effort to learn how to do it without spells?
    This may be more to the point. Even if wizards and sorcerers had skill points to burn, why put them into Diplomacy and Bluff and Knowledge: Puny Mundanes when you can always roll an Intimidate check with a Baleful Polymorph spell.

    Warriors are more commonly seen as leaders of men. So that works well for fighters and paladins, and even barbarians if they're in or close to their home culture. Rangers less so, but they're probably off wildshaping anyway.

    The problem is that there's a Tier 1 class whose role and fluff makes them ideally suited to be leaders--clerics. You could build in the idea that their connection to their deity makes them less connected to their fellow mortals, but that's more world-building that anything else.

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