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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    I know, the usual suggestion is to give up and go play Tome of Battle classes that give the beatsticks spell-like abilities so they can play alongside the nerfed Tier 3 casters. I still want to work within the classic fighter-mage-cleric-thief framework. I know warblade-crusader-bard-beguiler is more optimized and everything, but that just feels like a foreign game to me.

    I've been working on ideas to nerf the casters, but I'd like some input on ideas to boost the mundane fighters. (include Barbarian, Paladin, probably Ranger unless he's busy wildshaping.)

    I'd also like to stay with things that are at least a semi-logical effect of getting whacked real good with a beatstick. I was listening to sports radio talking about NFL concussions, and I wonder if that's an avenue to explore. (I know I'm a bad person and I'm going to hell for reacting to the concussion issue that way, but let's go on.)

    So what if we looked at stuff that let mundanes do ability damage? Concussion effects, slicing tendons, etc.?

    Rogues already have the Crippling Strike ability, but that's on top of Sneak Attack, and is only available at level 10 as part of a menu.

    Maybe Rogues could get Crippling Strike earlier, and choose Dexterity or Constitution damage instead of Strength damage? (so Sneak Attacks could cut the leg tendons on a zombie, and if Dex drops to zero it cant stand.)

    Maybe a feat that allows powerful blows to result in the opponent being dazzled or shaken if they miss a fort save? Or just casting Ray of Idiocy with a melee weapon.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Stat damage, more damage on a standard action, and status effects are covered by ToB, if you want to do something new you're going to need to look beyond that.

    Really if you want to do something interesting and different, you need to make them useful at something other than being beatsticks. Give them something to do in situations where smacking something with a big weapon won't work. If you're just looking at new and interesting ways to hurt people, you're not going to get anywhere.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Stat damage, more damage on a standard action, and status effects are covered by ToB, if you want to do something new you're going to need to look beyond that.

    Really if you want to do something interesting and different, you need to make them useful at something other than being beatsticks. Give them something to do in situations where smacking something with a big weapon won't work. If you're just looking at new and interesting ways to hurt people, you're not going to get anywhere.
    I think giving the rebuilt Fighter more skill points and more class skills is a given, but I also want to get them to the point where beatstick is doing more than half the work in combat.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I think giving the rebuilt Fighter more skill points and more class skills is a given, but I also want to get them to the point where beatstick is doing more than half the work in combat.
    You can give him 100 skill points per level and all skills as class skills.

    Still not going to cut it.

    Edit: Okay I lied. It would cut it, entirely thanks to Use Magic Device. But that's just lazy.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2013-10-16 at 01:47 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    You should read the Book of Experimental Might by Monte Cook. There's a lot of really good feats in there that could make good class features. Hampering Strike, for instance, inflicts a -10' to all movement speeds (-20' at 10th, -30 at 20th) to a creature you strike. Running Circles makes you not provoke AoOs from creatures whose threat you are in at the start of your turn.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    You should read the Book of Experimental Might by Monte Cook.
    Thanks. Stuff like that would help.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Also check out some of the fighter fixes on the playground. I think someone had a thread going last week for a compendium of fixes. If you can find that you will find plenty of links to all sorts of mundane fixes. Also there is the fighter fix in my sig. There are a lot of cool class abilities in there.
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Depending on what you do to the casters, you can go with the oldest fix I'm aware of: Make the full attack a standard action. It allows fighters to use their primary ability every round and move so that they can do it again next round.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by lightningcat View Post
    Depending on what you do to the casters, you can go with the oldest fix I'm aware of: Make the full attack a standard action. It allows fighters to use their primary ability every round and move so that they can do it again next round.
    This is definatley the fastest and easiest fix but it doesn't fix the problem that a wizard can be good at combat, dungeoning, lockpicking, sneaking, scouting, social, and every other encounter type and a fighter can only smash things.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    This is definatley the fastest and easiest fix but it doesn't fix the problem that a wizard can be good at combat, dungeoning, lockpicking, sneaking, scouting, social, and every other encounter type and a fighter can only smash things.
    Even that wouldn't sting so badly if the Wizard couldn't pick the right spells and POOF be better at smashing things because Polymorph/Tenser's Transformation/etc, or Summon Monster if the wizard wants to be careful with his meager d4 hit points.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    You might want to google the "Tome Fighter" and look into some of its tricks. One of them is a swift action counter-spell - actually, it counters any action of a creature within 30 ft., provided the fighter can hit it with a ranged touch attack. Foil Action is available at 9th level, and improves later on (to a 60 ft. range). The fluff is bad, though.

    Another ability is to make any sort of magical weapon, armor or equipment, using craft ranks as caster level. (In the Tome system all the craft skills are folded into one.) I believe all other item creation prerequisites are waived; the idea is that the fighter should be self-sufficient in terms of equipment.

    There are a special selection of tome feats as well, which are very powerful. You could make them accessible only via the fighter's bonus feats. The Tome system includes several tweaks to the combat system, including something called "the edge". It gives certain benefits when your BAB is higher than your opponents. Also, combat expertise and power attack are available as combat maneuvers (they don't require feats), and the grappling system has been streamlined.

    Actually, the tomes (by Frank & K, mostly) are full of awesome material. But there are gaps in what is covered; it is assumed, I suppose, that a competent DM can make up stuff and change whatever doesn't fit his gaming group.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    You might want to google the "Tome Fighter" and look into some of its tricks.

    Actually, the tomes (by Frank & K, mostly) are full of awesome material. But there are gaps in what is covered; it is assumed, I suppose, that a competent DM can make up stuff and change whatever doesn't fit his gaming group.
    It looks like I'm going to have to pick up Tome of Battle. But most of what I've seen of it online (either at Wizards.com or what shows up on google) sort of "smells like" a spellcaster more than a melee or ranged fighter.

    I suppose what I mean by that is, when you have a set of cards next to your character sheet describing things you can do once a day, and you have the option to pick different cards the next day, that sounds sort of....familiar.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    A fighter who can only beat things with a stick can only solve problems that can be solved by beating things with a stick.

    A hero who can lead armies, inspire loyalty, leap, hurl, beat things with a stick, wrestle hydras, climb up the back of cyclopses and stab them in the eye, block fireballs with a shield and make their enemies flee before them in terror... is less crippled.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    It looks like I'm going to have to pick up Tome of Battle. But most of what I've seen of it online (either at Wizards.com or what shows up on google) sort of "smells like" a spellcaster more than a melee or ranged fighter.

    I suppose what I mean by that is, when you have a set of cards next to your character sheet describing things you can do once a day, and you have the option to pick different cards the next day, that sounds sort of....familiar.
    Man I can't believe all characters get 6 stats, AC, and hit points. My Wizard is just like my fighter!
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Man I can't believe all characters get 6 stats, AC, and hit points. My Wizard is just like my fighter!
    OK, well put. What I mean is that mundane abilities tend to be things that are always available (Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization, Point-Blank Shot, Sneak Attack, Disarm/Feint/Trip, FAvored Enemy bonus). Or if they are not always available, they have their own schedule. (Barbarian Rage, PAladin Smite Evil.)

    I think there are some Tome of Battle maneuvers that would work well as at-will or N/day abilities. I half-remember hearing about one where you can defend your ally by taking a 5-foot step and the enemy has to attack you instead of your nearby friend. We could mine the Tome of Battle turning maneuvers into feats and feat chains, maybe give the Fighter a bonus feat every level.

    But the mechanic of "Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it" bugs me for mundanes.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    It looks like I'm going to have to pick up Tome of Battle.
    No, this is different, 3rd party homebrew. You'll see links at dandwiki and the Gaming Den.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    No, this is different, 3rd party homebrew. You'll see links at dandwiki and the Gaming Den.
    Oh, I like that. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)

    That guy is Tier 4, I think, and a half-dozen feat options in the Rage/Sneak Attack range from being Tier 3.

    EDIT: I don't want to just reply to myself, so...

    "Right Where I Want Him"
    Requires BAB +6, maybe something else?
    Allows a beatstick to use a full action to Bluff a melee opponent into a particular square/hex. If it works (Bluff + BAB vs Sense Motive +BAB), your opponent withdraws into the spot you want. If it doesn't work, you get one standard attack. Requires BAB +6.

    "Be Awesome With Two WEapon Fighting"
    Requires: Two WEapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
    (Maybe restricted to light armor?)
    Allows you to use one weapon for Combat Expertise or a CE-related feat (Improved Disarm/Feint/Trip), instead of CE having to be a full-round action.
    Fluff: The whole idea of two-weapon fighting is using subtlety and guile to confuse and deceive your opponent into dropping his guard. BAW-TWF lets you use TWF to defend yourself, or feint, or try a disarm with one weapon while setting up your main attack.

    "Be Awesome With A Shield"
    Requires: Not sure. No Clerics! Grumble Tier 1 grumble
    Take -2 to all attacks, add 1/2 BAB to your shield bonus when using a large shield.
    Fluff: The novice can carry a shield and use it passively to defend hiimself. The veteran warrior has mastered the art of using his shield to actively block and parry attacks against him.

    "Look Out!" (Name needs work, even more than the others)
    Requires: Be Awesome With A Shield
    Any time you are required to make a Reflex save, you can use your shield to help block the effect. Add 1/2 BAB to your Reflex save.

    "You Have To Go Through Me"
    Requires: Be Awesome With a Shield.
    You can intercept one attack per round aimed at an ally if they are within a five-foot step. The attack is instead rolled against you. (I know I'm copying this idea, does anyone know from where?)

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    One thing I did was make a whole list of Fighter feats that are class abilities in and of themselves, i also tore apart the epci PrC Legendary dreadaught amd the Tactical fighter Prc and mode those abilities into feats.

    Here is a the link, nobody really likes them or thinks any of them are a good idea, cept me for some odd reason.

    but they do a lot of what you are saying, attack more than just AC, give actualy new abilities, scale based on BaB. But im pretty sure that is just that I made them and not one of the better known homebrewwers. Im only say that becuase once I stted what I feel was wrong with the fighter and gave some opinions on a base way to fix that, it was 3 pages of 'hate on ngilop' then a couple of weeks later Zeigander said the same thing almost verbatim and of course those same people loved it.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    One thing I did was make a whole list of Fighter feats that are class abilities in and of themselves, i also tore apart the epci PrC Legendary dreadaught amd the Tactical fighter Prc and mode those abilities into feats.
    Well, I like some of the first ones. Didn't like some others. Man, there's a lot of them though. It's probably easier to pick a few of the best ones.

    The Postures seem like something that the Tome of Battle-type classes do better, and I think 2 or maybe 3 War Cry feats would be enough. Opponents wet their pants, (Cleric Doom spell), Intimidate-on-steroids (Cleric command spell). And maybe one that gives a Will save bonus, or a new Will save against a continuing effect.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Oh, I like that. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)

    That guy is Tier 4, I think, and a half-dozen feat options in the Rage/Sneak Attack range from being Tier 3.
    Well, you can't really compare a Tome fighter with non-Tome classes. The power levels are different. For example, the 19th-level ability is an at will no-save-just-die for any character with a vorpal weapon.

    I should also mention the core fighter isn't really a tier 5 class, but more of a tier 4 with not enough supplemental material to make it shine. There are good ACF: dungeoncrasher, hit-and-run tactics, thug, unnamed variant, Zhentarim fighter, etc. Unfortunately, they don't cover all ways to play a fighter (curiously, none of them seem to be intended for an archer or an armored fighter).

    I suggest you also make options for the other mundane classes, even though they obviously won't have as many as the fighter. In general, adding new material makes a better job at ''fixing'' a class than actual fixes.
    Last edited by Network; 2013-10-18 at 10:37 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    There should be other viable ways to be a fighter than dungeoncrasher Zhentarim thug or unnamed variant hit-and-run Zhentarim fighter.
    I agree--not that I'm thoroughly familiar with the details of what the Zhentarim solders get, but that there should be multiple ways to be a fighter. But the generalized problem is that the base Fighter class often isn't as good at fighting as other classes, and is not designed to do anything else well at all.

    But if we upgrade the base fighter so he can do his job, we can start looking at types of fighter. Types of martial mundanes, actually.

    1. The two-handed-weapon wielding damage machine, with or without Barbarian Rage. This is the style that's most effective as things stand. Ironically,

    2. The traditional knight-in-shining-armor. I think Mounted Combat is pretty effective as it is, it's main limitation is dungeons that are not designed to accommodate mounts other than wargs.

    3. Derived from the knight-in-shining-armor, the guy with plate mail and shield. I think "Be Awesome With A Weapon And Shield" starts to get him back in the game, especially if you can combine that with a mechanism to use all that invulnerability to block attacks on others. (Possibly make Heavy Armor a separate proficiency feat, but give Heavy Armor automatic DR 1?) when he's out of spells (and not a vampire).

    4. The archer. Plenty of feats in Core, but it doesn't add up to much because they get minimal damage bonuses. I don't have anything to help here.

    5. "The quickblade" Lightly armored, relying more on speed, guile and tricks than brute strength. In movies, Errol Flynn or Inigo Montoya. In D&D, he's a two-weapon fighter. I designed BAW-TWF to encourage the use of one weapon for a special attack and the other as a regular attack, which is I think how a two-weapon fighter would shine--it's how two-fisted boxers operate, after all, using the jab to probe for an opening for the more powerful punching hand. But I think you have to stack it with Sneak Attack to produce respectable damage at higher levels. (A feat to add Dexterity to damage for finesse weapons would help, but greatsword + Power Attack still does a lot more.)

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I agree--not that I'm thoroughly familiar with the details of what the Zhentarim solders get, but that there should be multiple ways to be a fighter. But the generalized problem is that the base Fighter class often isn't as good at fighting as other classes, and is not designed to do anything else well at all.

    But if we upgrade the base fighter so he can do his job, we can start looking at types of fighter. Types of martial mundanes, actually.
    The fighter is good at one thing of its own: completing feat chains. I personally see the fighter as a specialist of one combat tactic, which spends most of his bonus feats to complete a single feat chain. The problem is that many combat tactics only received support in core and were then promptly forgotten by WotC (there is exactly one feat that makes you better at overrun. And its in core), and other yet didn't receive support at all (there is not a single feat that makes you better at using tower shields). The end result is that no fighter can spend all or even most of his feats on the same combat tactic. PHBII was an honest attempt to correct the problem, but it's still there.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Nedz had a suggestion in the 3.5 forum in a thread on Old SChool Feel.

    * Iterative attacks at full BAB, for full BAB classes only. (No iterative attacks for anyone else.)

    I tweaked that a bit for multiclassing-happy 3.X, and to help out Rogues, to say one iterative attack at full BAB for every 6 Mundane class levels. (So a Fighter 6 would be at +6/+6, a Rogue 6 would be at +4/+4)

    No iterative attacks at all for CoDzilla, or the Bard. Rangers and Paladins (and Crusaders) would be a borderline case.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    You need out-of-combat things. If you do not have out-of-combat things, then the fighter will still feel terribad.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    You need out-of-combat things. If you do not have out-of-combat things, then the fighter will still feel terribad.
    I think you've said that you could give the fighter 100 skill points per level and it wouldn't matter, barring UMD. So you're not talking about very easy things like letting the Fighter/Paladin have 4+Int and picking two "background skills" to be in-class. Knowledge, stealth skills, minor diplomancy, horsemanship, climbing, swimming, perception skills, craft, profession, use rope, all worthless because a spell can do it better anyway, and because someone else in the party is probably better at it.

    So do you think there's any way for a class to be Tier 3 without casting spells? (And, IMO, if it's something you have to "prepare" before using it, it's a spell.)

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Yes.

    Imagine if they had a Skill Talent that let them use Escape Artist on spells and (ex) and (su) effects that would be affected by Freedom of Movement. Something like a dispel check on the spell. Then a high Escape Artist skill level became perma-Freedom of Movement.

    That would require zero prep, but it would be an effect as strong as a pretty strong spell.

    Freedom of Movement is a level 4 spell, so something that a Wizard can cast a few times per day at level 7 as a class feature. If the equivalent of Freedom of Movement was available as a skill-linked Rogue class feature at level 5, that would be a reasonably strong ability.

    If a class gained such abilities that are roughly that strong at a rate of 1 per level, where the ability boosts some skill to rival the effects of some buff or spell a few levels above it, available at-will (selected carefully, not willy nilly), you could have such skill talents building a far-less flexible, but reasonably powerful, mundane class.

    Another example -- Jump. A level 1 spell that grants +10/20/30 bonus to Jump checks.

    A level 1 Skill Talent might grant a +10 enhancement bonus +2/level bonus to Jump checks, and double how high you can reach. Reasonably useful in combat, quite useful outside combat.

    And yes, these abilities can make the spell useless in comparison. These kind of abilities are things you pick as you advance, and you don't get to swap out with 1-20 other abilities on a daily or at-will basis.

    Nearly every skill can have abilities like this that are simply extraordinary. By using " a similar level spell " as your balance metric, you can prevent them from being overshadowed by magic.

    Now, both of the above are at-will, but diminishing marginal returns kick in. The single best time to jump during a day will be "worth more" than the second, or third. Always on abilities that mimic spells with such a rapid decrease in marginal return, or have long durations, make the problem easier to handle.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Yes.

    Imagine if they had a Skill Talent that let them use Escape Artist on spells and (ex) and (su) effects that would be affected by Freedom of Movement. Something like a dispel check on the spell. Then a high Escape Artist skill level became perma-Freedom of Movement.
    I like this idea. I'd translate it as requiring a +10 on a check to qualify for an effectively-Epic skill use.

    Brainstorming while typing--at every odd-numbered level starting at 3rd or maybe 5th, you can choose one skill to use at an Extaordinary level. You need a +10 modifier, and you can use the Ex ability once per day per ability bonus in the key stat. (Mundane classes only.)

    So a +10 Run modifier would qualify you to use Expeditious Retreat. +10 Climb --> Spider climb. +10 Knowledge--I dunno. +10 Hide in Shadows--Invisibility. +10 Move Silently--Silence 10' radius spell, so you silence the caster--he can't cast, and no one can hear him scream when you Sneak Attack. +10 Jump could be Jump, or could be Feather Fall.

    At higher levels (10+), maybe access Bulls STrength/Cats Grace/Bears Endurance as EX abilities? Weapon attack to debuff (Greater Dispel Magic, with your Fighter level as the caster level?) would be fun and cinematic.

    Maybe figure out access to True STrike, Divine Power, Lesser Vigor, Protection from X, Align Weapon; Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge? Magic Circle vs X?

    The fluff would be sort of like the old 2E Paladin, except instead of countering evil magic with the Power of Good(TM) it's just the grit and willpower of a legendary-caliber hero.

    OF course, a lot of that fed back into combat stuff.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    So, two things, first I'd recommend looking at Races of War and Tome of Prowess. The first adds a lot of new options for melee, and the second drastically buffs the skill system. Both let mundane characters do much more interesting things.

    The Tome of Prowess also has skills that let you make up for failed save.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    OK, well put. What I mean is that mundane abilities tend to be things that are always available (Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization, Point-Blank Shot, Sneak Attack, Disarm/Feint/Trip, FAvored Enemy bonus). Or if they are not always available, they have their own schedule. (Barbarian Rage, PAladin Smite Evil.)

    I think there are some Tome of Battle maneuvers that would work well as at-will or N/day abilities. I half-remember hearing about one where you can defend your ally by taking a 5-foot step and the enemy has to attack you instead of your nearby friend. We could mine the Tome of Battle turning maneuvers into feats and feat chains, maybe give the Fighter a bonus feat every level.

    But the mechanic of "Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it" bugs me for mundanes.
    I'd like to point out that Tome of Battle maneuvers aren't per day abilities. They're per encounter, unless you refresh them, in which case they're basically at will with a delay. The readying maneuvers is there more for balance, so they can't have every solution open to them at once.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I like this idea. I'd translate it as requiring a +10 on a check to qualify for an effectively-Epic skill use.
    Or, rather, you pick up Talents that are epic-level uses of a skill.

    And you get to do them without epic-level skill modifiers.

    You should roll the check into it. As an example, your freedom of movement -- it would be a skill check against the caster level of the effect. If it lacks a caster level, the save DC. If it lacks a save DC, 10+1/2 the HD of the originating creature.

    On success, you treat the effect as if you are under a freedom of movement spell.

    And you make this check automatically (A) when the effect first impacts you, and (B) at the start of your turn, as no action.
    Brainstorming while typing--at every odd-numbered level starting at 3rd or maybe 5th, you can choose one skill to use at an Extaordinary level.
    First, you need scaling: not all tricks should be the same power level, and if they are the character will pick the best ones first, and end up with sub-standard tricks to get later on.

    Second, why every odd level? You have plenty of room for power growth in mundane classes.
    You need a +10 modifier
    You could throw in skill level requirements as one way to measure the "level" of the trick.

    Maintain parity between a X-skill required effect and a (X-3)/2 level spell.

    4: Level 1 spells
    6: Level 2 spells
    8: Level 3 spells
    10: Level 4 spells
    12: Level 5 spells
    14: Level 6 spells
    16: Level 7 spells
    18: Level 8 spells
    20: Level 9 spells

    Now, we could make things a bit simpler.

    5/10/15/20 as the 4 tiers.

    5: Level 0-2 spells
    10: Level 3-4 spells
    15: Level 5-7 spells
    20: Level 8-9 spells

    , and you can use the Ex ability once per day per ability bonus in the key stat. (Mundane classes only.)
    Again, why a per-day limit? You have lots of power room.

    If you let a level 12 rogue cast mass suggestion as a standard action (using their Bluff skill), it would be strong, but would it break the game? (Save DC: half your bluff check) (Targets get a cumulative +4 bonus for each time the Rogue has tried this on them before)

    And being so convincing that you can bluff your way into ordering dozens of people to walk away mundanely is pretty awesome.

    It still won't make you tier 1, because you would lack a pile of flexiblity, but you'd have abilities that actually compete with spells.
    At higher levels (10+), maybe access Bulls STrength/Cats Grace/Bears Endurance as EX abilities?
    These are just enhancement bonuses to stats. As they are level 2 spells, having them always-on should require ~5 skill points.

    Now, the downside is that kind of "passive buffing of my attributes" can become the obvious optimal choice, and squeeze out more fun abilities. So instead, roll enhancement and inherit bonuses right into the classes.

    At level 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to your strength, constitution and dexterity and one mental attribute of your choice.

    At level 4, 8, 12 and 16, you gain a +1 inherit bonus to the same set.

    That is a bit weak, I'll admit, but it might help with buff independence.

    Weapon attack to debuff (Greater Dispel Magic, with your Fighter level as the caster level?) would be fun and cinematic.
    Yep, spell breaking with a sword. You'd use your Fighter level, plus the enhancement bonus of your weapon, plus your strength, opposed by their caster level.

    And again, this shouldn't be a per-day thing: you swing a sword, you break the magic. The same enchantment might get a cumulative +4 bonus (or you get a cumulative -4 penalty) to repeated attacks, and such attacks deal half normal damage if they don't disrupt a spell. If they disrupt a spell, it both deals the half damage, *and* full damage to the source of the spell, as it snaps back and the feedback fries the caster.

    So now you have your fighter taking his sword, and cutting into a wall of force, severing it and frying the spellcaster.

    In general, you should not say "using this spell", but rather use spells as an indication of what the power level should be.

    Do not say "x times per day" just because. Determine if being able to do it at-will would actually break the game first. Maybe throw in stacking penalties to repeated use on the same target if that would be a problem. (such penalties might be reset after a day, a level, or something)

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    Default Re: 3.5 Buffing the Mundanes (especially fighter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    No, this is different, 3rd party homebrew. You'll see links at dandwiki and the Gaming Den.
    Keep in mind that the Races of War classes are all very powerful, but only due to high numbers. They're otherwise still Tier 4, but completely overshadow other Tier 4s.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    OK, well put. What I mean is that mundane abilities tend to be things that are always available (Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization, Point-Blank Shot, Sneak Attack, Disarm/Feint/Trip, FAvored Enemy bonus). Or if they are not always available, they have their own schedule. (Barbarian Rage, PAladin Smite Evil.)

    I think there are some Tome of Battle maneuvers that would work well as at-will or N/day abilities. I half-remember hearing about one where you can defend your ally by taking a 5-foot step and the enemy has to attack you instead of your nearby friend. We could mine the Tome of Battle turning maneuvers into feats and feat chains, maybe give the Fighter a bonus feat every level.

    But the mechanic of "Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it" bugs me for mundanes.
    ToB maneuvers are effectively at will most the time, due to them being 1/encounter or until you regain them, and regaining them is very easy for most classes that use them.

    If that mechanic bugs you fluff-wise, which I completely understand, look at it this way: you do a practice round first to warm yourself up for using it so you can use it well. You get yourself into a certain mindset to use it, just like how a fighter who practices multiple martial arts does before a competition, so that he doesn't start using his other things where they aren't allowed. Some people can still easily switch over, but have trained for this (there is a feat for that, Adaptive Style it's called iirc).
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