Warforged slamming attack?

[Zephra]

Warforged get a built in slam attack, which would probably be done with their hands/fists. If a warforged has a built in weapon, like a club or a mace, can the damage from the slam and the weapon stack?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Slams are done in a similar way to an unarmed strike. It doesn't have to be your fists, it can be your knee, your foot or even your head or shoulder. So a warforged with two swords for hands would do normal slam damage using other parts of it's body. Attacking with it's hands would just do the sword damage.

[Zephra]

thanks, that's clarified.

[ken-do-nim]

Also btw any solitary natural attack, such as the warforged's slam attack, adds 1.5 x strength to damage.

[Skyserpent]

So the question is: Can a Warforged use a Slam Attack alongside a Flurry of blows?

[Khantalas]

No. A slam attack is not an unarmed strike.

It says so in the FAQ.

[Skyserpent]

But can it be comboed with one? Like, can a level 1 Warforged use a full attack to make two unarmed strikes and a slam?

[Khantalas]

Nope. A slam is an attack. A flurry of blows is a full attack that works with only specific attack types. They probably don't work together.

[Starbuck_II]

But can it be comboed with one? Like, can a level 1 Warforged use a full attack to make two unarmed strikes and a slam?

Only if the slam can be used as a secondary natural weapon. That implies -5 hit penalty for them (2 claws, 1 slam, etc) and 1x str instead of 1.5.

Level one warforge monk without str bonus flurrying: -2 2x unarm strikes, + 1 -7 slam.

You could do it, but you'd barely hit.

[ken-do-nim]

Ah, threads come and threads return. I'm too lazy to do a search on it, but yes we had a really good discussion on here about whether slams are included with flurry of blows, or indeed any full attack sequence. The consensus was that though it was omitted from RAW, the intent seemed to be that slams are different from every other natural attack in that they can't be included with a creature's physical weapons/unarmed strikes.

So if you were playing a centaur monk, you could do a flurry of blows and then attack with your hooves at -5. If you were playing a dolgaunt monk, you'd get a flurry of blows and then those tentacle attacks. But slams apparently can't be tagged on. There is no rule that says so, mind you, but no one has ever seen a monster stat block with them that way. It makes sense at least, a slam is specifically not a limb making it the monster version of an unarmed strike.

[Person_Man]

Natural attacks + manufactured weapons get very crazy, very quickly. If seen a ton of debate on it.

But to quote the FAQ:

When a creature has natural weaponry, do all its natural weapons become secondary attacks when it uses a manufactured weapon? If so, what happens to the damage rating for a primary natural weapon that gets demoted to secondary status?

When a creature uses both manufactured and natural weapons together with the full attack action, treat the manufactured weapon as the primary attack (using the creature’s full attack bonus) and treat all the natural weapons as secondary natural attacks (–5 attack penalty, or –2 if the creature has the Multiattack feat).

The basic damage rating for a secondary natural weapon doesn’t change, but the creature gets only half its Strength bonus to damage for the secondary attack, even if it would otherwise be a primary natural weapon. The troll entry in the Monster Manual provides a good example of this.

Can a creature make a slam or claw attack when both his hands are used for something else, such as holding a two-handed weapon?

As long as the creature can easily let go with one hand, yes. A two-handed weapon requires two hands to wield in combat, but not to hold. A frost giant could choose to make a slam attack instead of a greataxe attack without having to drop the greataxe.

On the other hand, a frost giant carrying a heavy weight in both arms doesn’t have a free hand to use for a slam attack. He’d have to drop the object (a free action) before making a slam attack.

So, you could make your full normal attack routine, and then make your slam attack at -5.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

So, you could make your full normal attack routine, and then make your slam attack at -5.

... if you have a free hand that you have not used for TWF, shield or a TH-weapon.

[Person_Man]

... if you have a free hand that you have not used for TWF, shield or a TH-weapon.

Correct. Sorry I forgot to add that caveat. That's why Warforged Monks rock. Their hands are almost always free.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. I think you could make your Slam Attack even if you have a Two Handed Weapon...

[ken-do-nim]

So then we must ask ourselves why no stat block in the monster manual adds slams in that way. Take the vampiric monk/shadowdancer, for example. It's not on the SRD so I don't have the quote handy, but as I recall it says flurry of blows or slam for the full attack.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Nahhh Matthew, you don't. Not when you think about it.

To allow that you would also have to allow someone holding a weapon in a Claw to drop and gain the Claw attack.

You are already using your hand/Slam to wield the weapon and attack with it.

Notice also the wording in the FAQ.
"A frost giant could choose to make a slam attack instead of a greataxe attack without having to drop the greataxe."

(my emphasis)

[Captain van der Decken]

What(apart from the rules, obviously)separates slam attacks from unarmed attacks?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I am not quite sure what kind of answer you are looking for outside the RAW?

Slams are made with an appendage and so are Unarmed Strikes.
Except for Oozes, who use pseudopods to Slam, they are quite similar in how they are executed.

[Fax Celestis]

I personally see slam attacks as something like blunt-force trauma. A horse's hoof, for instance, is a slam attack, whereas it body-checking you would be an unarmed attack.

[Captain van der Decken]

Basically I was wondering what makes it different enough to warrant another attack category.

[Person_Man]

Ken: The answer is that WotC has been inconsistant on natural attacks, which is why there is so much debate on the subject. The FAQ used to refer people to the stats of the original monster in question. If the monster could normally use the natural attack as a secondary attack, then they could use it as a secondary attack with a manufactured weapon. Then people pointed out how poorly worded and inconsistant many descriptions are, how stat blocks are often wrong, and the numerous ways you can get natural attacks from feats, grafts, spells, etc. So they changed it.


Captain: There are three types of attacks: Manufactured Weapons, Natural Attacks, and Unarmed Attacks.

Manufactured Weapons get itterative attacks and follow the normal two weapon fighting rules.

Natural Attacks never get itterative attacks. You get one primary natural attack, and all others are at -5 to hit (or -2 if you have the Multi-Attack feat). There are many types, claws, bite, gore (horns), tail, wing buffet, tentacles, slam, and others. A slam attack is poorly defined, but generally its when a monster beats you with its fists or appendages.

Unarmed Attacks are natural attacks from humanoids with their fists (unless you're a Monk, they're special). They get itterative attacks and follow the normal two weapon fighting rules. They also provoke attacks of opportunity every time you use them and can only deal non-leathal damage, unless you have the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat. They also count as natural attacks (mostly so that feats and spells that effect natural attacks also effect them), but always follow the normal attack routine for manufactured weapons.

So, a Slam attack is different from an unarmed attack in that it follows the natural attack routine, and not the normal manufactured/unarmed attack routine. But they use up the same "slot" - your arm.

[Matthew]

Nahhh Matthew, you don't. Not when you think about it.

To allow that you would also have to allow someone holding a weapon in a Claw to drop and gain the Claw attack.

You are already using your hand/Slam to wield the weapon and attack with it.

Notice also the wording in the FAQ.
"A frost giant could choose to make a slam attack instead of a greataxe attack without having to drop the greataxe."

(my emphasis)

It's the problematic question for me of whether Secondary Natural Attacks are 'Off Hand' or 'Iterative'. They seem to blend elements of both. If the former Slam Attacks cannot be used, if the latter they can. If they just follow their own rules, then those should be spelled out. I suspect Wizards are having difficulty themselves, as with the Grappling discussion and how Natural Attacks operate.

I take the point, though. It would be stupid to allow a Lizard Man to make his Weapon Attack, drop his Weapon (Free Action), make two Claw Attacks and a Bite... or even make a Two Handed Weapon Attack followed by a Claw and a Bite, when a Fighter cannot make a Two Handed Weapon Attack followed by a Spiked Gauntlet Attack.

If the Slam Attack is not made with the Fist, though, things start to get blurry for me... especially when I have to draw the distinction between Front Feet and Rear Feet where multiple Feet are involved.

If you have the Trample feat, and you perform a
mounted overrun, your target cannot choose to avoid you,
and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun,
your mount can make one hoof attack against your
opponent. Suppose you’re mounted on something other
than a horse. Should the mount get one attack with its
primary natural weapon (a hoof attack is the horse’s
primary attack), or does a creature without a hoof attack
get no free attack to attack against the trampled and prone
opponent?
The free attack for the mount in a trample represents the
mount literally knocking down the foe and stepping on him as
he falls underneath the mount’s churning feet. The feat
description specifies a hoof attack, but the kind of natural
weapon is not limited only to hoof attacks. Any attack that is
delivered with a foot, such as a claw or slam attack, also works.
If the quadruped mount has natural weaponry on all four feet,
use the weapon on the front feet. (For example, if your mount
is a big cat, use the claw attack for a trample, not the rake.)
Mounts that don’t attack with their feet don’t get the free
attack. For example, if your mount is a riding dog, it won’t get
a free attack from a trample; it can’t use its bite, and it has no
natural weaponry on its front feet.

I think they probably do follow the 'Off Hand' Rules for the most part, but there are places where they don't, such being unable to switch Attack Routines around (Ghouls, for instance, can't make their Claws their Primary Attack - I'm not even sure if they can attack with them before they Bite).

I think the War Forged could make an Off Hand attack with his Foot, but it looks like Slam Attacks are restricted to any above the first set of Feet...

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Unarmed Attacks ... count as natural attacks (mostly so that feats and spells that effect natural attacks also effect them)

Not generally, The Monk's US are a special case and they are treated as Natural Weapons for the purpose of spells and effects.

Some spells like Magic Fang can also affect US.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

If the Slam Attack is not made with the Fist, though, things start to get blurry for me... especially when I have to draw the distinction between Front Feet and Rear Feet where multiple Feet are involved.

...

I think the War Forged could make an Off Hand attack with his Foot, but it looks like Slam Attacks are restricted to any above the first set of Feet...

I think it is important to remember that unlike US a Slam cannot be made with just any appendage. It should be clear from the description of the creature with what appendage the Slam is made, unfortunately this is not always the case.

However, in case of the Warforged it is quite clear that they use hands for their Slam attack.

The standard rules for natural weapons say that you can use them in connection with iterative attacks (at a penalty) when they are not engaged in some other activity (like making iterative attacks).
If you just follow that I think you avoid losing you mind completely (in most cases at least).

[Matthew]

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[YPU]

I always imagined slam attacks as improvised attacks of cheer brute. Sort of an last resort, when you don’t have anything else, throw every muscle you have against it. That’s why I don’t allow slam attacks in full attacks those sort of recluse moves don’t work well in combo’s.
You don’t attack with both your hands and then put your shoulder into it.