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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Catharsis's Avatar

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    Default Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Wulfram, my chain-wielding Ftr 3/Brb 1 (planning on Ftr 4/Brb 2/Pious Templar) has the worrisome habit of getting hit with Will-save spells, and with his +2 (+1 base, +1 Wis), that's more or less guaranteed suckage. Last session, a cleric of Mask tries to Hold him while two orcs stand by to coup-de-grace him with greataxes... luckily, the spell gets disrupted by a magic missile. Next round, Wulfram gets hit by Cause Fear and misses out on the rest of the combat.

    Obviously, he won't survive that for long. I need options, people! Here's what I thought so far:
    • At ECL 7, Pious Templar will give him Will as a strong save, but it will take a while for that to have a tangible effect. Also, I have to survive three levels until then.
    • Rage gives a +2 to Will saves, but I have only one rage per day, which I'd like to keep for emergencies. I presume an enemy caster is an emergency, unless I get to stand right next to him with my chain.
    • Cloak of Resistance: Easy to come by, but +1 is not that much, and +2 is already kinda expensive. Probably worth it, though. Saves are the most dangerous weaknesses of a character, it seems. Is there an item that gives a higher bonus to a single save, though?
    • Protection from Evil: All-round nice spell effect to have, but our cleric of Haela has this habit of casting it on himself and then charging into battle obliviously. Also, the cleric is leaving the group, and a druid takes over his place.
    • Iron Will is out of question for a while, I'm afraid. I need my next two feats to qualify for Pious Templar. I do have to take True Believer though, which gives me a +2 to a single save roll once per day. Lame, but might come in handy in a pinch.
    • Pumping Wis with stat increases and items: Not worth the small benefit, I guess.
    Anything else? The setting is Forgotten Realms, BTW.
    Catharsis

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    And so we see the reason why casters start winning in DnD...

    Anyways. First of all, you should whack your cleric with a stick. He has propably will save around +5 or +6 anyways so protection from evil is the one spell he should be casting at the fighter before charging.

    A shame that the cleric will be out but is there a wizard in the party? Next level he could cast
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mag...gainstEvil.htm
    which is 10 mins/levels...

    Otherwise... potions. Remove fear, protection from evil...

    EDIT: But to tell the sad fact, you will not start succeeding at will saves, ever. At 7th level, you will have will save of +4 (+3 base,+1 wis) or +5 (add +1 cloack to previous). The enemy spellcaster with 16 in stat and casting 4th level will save spell has save dc of 17 at minium. :(

    So stock up on potions, try to get a friendly spellcaster to cast to help you.
    Last edited by Pegasos989; 2007-01-05 at 09:10 AM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    See if you can arrange to buy an item that boosts JUST will saves. It should be cheaper than a full-on cloak of resistance (since it only boosts a single save), but it would provide you the boost you need.

    EDIT: Oh, potions are another great idea. Hadn't thought about those. 25gold per fight, but worth it.
    Last edited by MrNexx; 2007-01-05 at 09:45 AM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    EDIT: But to tell the sad fact, you will not start succeeding at will saves, ever.

    This is pretty much the case. You can make yourself be less lousy at them, but you're always going to be some degree of lousy at them.

    The last pure fightin' type I played (rogue/duelist with a few fighter levels), I decided not to do anything about it. I'm bleedin' awful at Will saves, I siad, and I'm never going to get good, so I might as well work on making sure I can take out the enemy caster before he starts making me think jumping out the window is a good idea. This strategy worked well.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    We have done single save items at 1/3price +25% it has worked out pretty well. As has been said potions are great. I think there are a couple of cool regional feats from FR (strong soul maybe) that increase will saves.(I know your feats are spent for know but future feats may be open)
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Protection from Evil is the way to go. (Assuming you're fighting evil enemies, anyway.)

    Caster level 1 potions of Protection from Evil go for 50 gold each, and they last 10 rounds. For that, you get IMMUNITY to evil charm and compulsion effects - no Will saves at all! You can easily afford a dozen of them, which means you can drink one before every fight against an evil spellcaster. The extra +2 to AC and saves will be nice, too.

    Other options: Why are they targeting Will save magic on you? Could it be because you look like a fighter/barbarian type? Use a hat of disguise or Disguise Self and make yourself look like a spellcaster!

    That said, it would be much easier if you could get your casters to support you. My Forgotten Realms wizard carries around a wand of Protection from Evil and casts it on the party fighters/rogues whenever she's got nothing else to do in a combat. It's one of the most useful low-level spells.

    - Saph

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    Anyways. First of all, you should whack your cleric with a stick. He has propably will save around +5 or +6 anyways so protection from evil is the one spell he should be casting at the fighter before charging.
    Yeah, he sees himself more as a combattant than a supporter, in line with Haela's attitude and his negative Int modifier. Then again, he's pretty good at bashing, Haela being the goddess of greatsword munchkinism.

    A shame that the cleric will be out but is there a wizard in the party? Next level he could cast
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mag...gainstEvil.htm
    which is 10 mins/levels...
    Yeah, that's pretty nice, apart from the fact that our zulu-esque necromancer has barred abjuration. Maybe potions of PfE are indeed the way to go until I can cast it myself. I have a feeling that I will use all of my Templar spell slots for PfE and MCaE. What else is there in the paladin spell list to take?

    EDIT: But to tell the sad fact, you will not start succeeding at will saves, ever. At 7th level, you will have will save of +4 (+3 base,+1 wis) or +5 (add +1 cloack to previous). The enemy spellcaster with 16 in stat and casting 4th level will save spell has save dc of 17 at minium. :(
    At least that's a 45% chance of saving. Not much, I guess, considering that a Command, Hold Person or Confusion can totally wreak havoc with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiria
    Nope. My Con modifier is only +2, and I can't afford to blow two feats on a +1 to Will saves. It would start to make sense if I got some hefty +Con items, I guess.

    BTW, does anyone have experience with the Templar ability Mettle? It looks good on paper, but are there that many spells with Fort/Will partial? Also, there is the issue of having to succeed on the save in the first place. ;)
    Catharsis

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Mage Slayer feat. It prevents enemies that you threaten from casting defensively, and gives you a +1 to Will Saves. From Comp. Arcane. Combine with a reach weapon and spiked gauntlets/armor spikes so that they can't just take a 5 foot step out of your threatened area.

    Also, I've played a Hexblade/Fighter/Blackguard. Mettle would usually come into play and save my butt maybe once every three or four games. Nice, but nothing special compared to my huge bonus to Saves. Its definitely one of those abilities that is much better on paper then it is in real gaming. You should also note that its only useful if you have high Saves to begin with. If you don't have high Saves, then its useless. So if I were you, I'd forget about it.

    Consider the Occult Slayer PrC instead.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Caster level 1 potions of Protection from Evil go for 50 gold each, and they last 10 rounds. For that, you get IMMUNITY to evil charm and compulsion effects
    That's not quite the wording of the rules: It suppresses possession or mental control -- does Hold Person count as such an effect, for example?[/quote]

    Other options: Why are they targeting Will save magic on you? Could it be because you look like a fighter/barbarian type? Use a hat of disguise or Disguise Self and make yourself look like a spellcaster!
    Heh, that sounds like fun. Of course, an evil cleric is more or less guaranteed to make the Will save against the hat. He has to interact with me to get a save, though, so it could spare me the first wave of killer spells.

    My Forgotten Realms wizard carries around a wand of Protection from Evil and casts it on the party fighters/rogues whenever she's got nothing else to do in a combat. It's one of the most useful low-level spells.
    Not an option here, I'm afraid (until I get my own casting at lvl 7th). I might as well start buying a potion belt.

    EDIT:
    Mage Slayer feat.
    That sounds useful, in particular since Wulfram is a chain wielder.

    I was under the impression that stepping next to a cleric would pretty much screw him due to the large threat area, but on second thought, he is likely to make that defensive casting check. Mage Slayer would greatly help there. Then again, Will saves don't always come in the shape of casters...

    Occult Slayer: I'm not very familiar with the PrC. What are the main prereqs and benefits? Note that my Cha is only 9, and I'm not exactly swimming in skill points or feat slots.
    Last edited by Catharsis; 2007-01-05 at 10:36 AM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    That's not quite the wording of the rules: It suppresses possession or mental control -- does Hold Person count as such an effect, for example?
    Hold Person's a compulsion effect, which Prot. Evil specifically mentions, so yes, I think so. It wouldn't stop Fear, though, since that's neither a compulsion nor a charm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Heh, that sounds like fun. Of course, an evil cleric is more or less guaranteed to make the Will save against the hat. He has to interact with me to get a save, though, so it could spare me the first wave of killer spells.
    It's just to stop him zapping you in the first round. Once you get up close, the disguise won't work - but by then the odds should be a little more even, especially if you've tripped him by then. :)

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    For future fighter builds, the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII are ghastly awsome, but require a Wisdom score of at least 14. But, they improve as you gain more of them.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Occult Slayer: I'm not very familiar with the PrC. What are the main prereqs and benefits? Note that my Cha is only 9, and I'm not exactly swimming in skill points or feat slots.
    It's pretty strait forward. Req: Weapon Focus and Improved Initiative. Has full BAB and a strong Will Save, d8 hit points. Gives you a bunch of cool anti-magic stuff - Spell Turning, bonus to damage vs. anyone who uses spells or spell like abilities, etc. However, I would only suggest it if your party faces magic users on a daily basis. Otherwise, its a pretty useless class.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    It's just to stop him zapping you in the first round. Once you get up close, the disguise won't work - but by then the odds should be a little more even, especially if you've tripped him by then. :)
    Wulfram is not an expert tripper I'm afraid. I put my spare points in Wis in order to get access to divine buff spells, so I don't have the Int to get Improved Trip. Pity.

    Re Combat Focus feats: Ooh, meesa like. Maybe I can talk my DM into allowing me to replace True Believer with Combat Focus as a prereq to Templar. I doubt it, though, since he considered Iron Will as a replacement overpowered in conjunction with Mettle. Meh... I have to talk to him about that again. This would at least allow me to take Combat Vigor and Combat Stability at levels 9th and 10th (bonus feat from Templar).

    I've taken a look at Occult Slayer meanwhile, and I think it's too specific to make sense for Wulfram.
    Catharsis

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    You could get the Indomitable Soul, or Mad Foam Rager both from PHB II
    Last edited by Thrawn183; 2007-01-05 at 01:58 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Out of curiosity, what is your current feat selection? If you're a Trip build, I hope you have Knock-Down, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and Stand Still.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    You want to fight people alone? Then you may need to stack on protections. Rage, Cloacks, Feats...
    If you are in groups, you can have someone help you. The bard's inspire courage and countersongs can protect you, a paladin's courage aura gives you +4 if you are near him, and clerics and wizards have many spells to counter others effects.

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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Hold Person's a compulsion effect, which Prot. Evil specifically mentions, so yes, I think so. It wouldn't stop Fear, though, since that's neither a compulsion nor a charm.

    - Saph
    Protection from evil will suppress effects that grant ongoing control, so it will NOT stop hold person. while the wording is a bit iffy, the key to keep in mind imho is does the caster have control over your actions. Being held paralyzed could be a form of control, but when you ask whether the caster has control over your actions, you realize that the caster cannot have you move any more than you can.

    PfE basically stops charms and dominations, not compulsions in general.

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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    "Pumping Wis with stat increases and items: Not worth the small benefit, I guess."
    But you forgot that bumping up your Wis also improve your spot and listen check at same time. So your Wis score affect three things; Will saves, Listen checks, and Spot checks.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Yeah, he sees himself more as a combattant than a supporter, in line with Haela's attitude and his negative Int modifier. Then again, he's pretty good at bashing, Haela being the goddess of greatsword munchkinism.
    Oh yeah. I know combat clerics and I agree that they should buff themselves at high level because it helps team the most. However, if by casting a single spell on a fighter instead of himself he can keep two combatants instead of one in the fight, he really should cast it on you. Even if he then goes to combat by himself.


    Yeah, that's pretty nice, apart from the fact that our zulu-esque necromancer has barred abjuration. Maybe potions of PfE are indeed the way to go until I can cast it myself. I have a feeling that I will use all of my Templar spell slots for PfE and MCaE. What else is there in the paladin spell list to take?
    Abjuration banned? Well, if it is for roleplaying reasons... I don't know templar class but if it gets access to paladin spell list, Bless weapon, restoration and protection/magic circles come to mind. If you get access to it, Righteous fury (miniatures' handbook) comes to mind. It is not worth it to be casted in battle but if you have pre-battle buff time Owl's wisdom (will saves) and Divine Power seem like good choices.


    At least that's a 45% chance of saving. Not much, I guess, considering that a Command, Hold Person or Confusion can totally wreak havoc with me.


    Nope. My Con modifier is only +2, and I can't afford to blow two feats on a +1 to Will saves. It would start to make sense if I got some hefty +Con items, I guess.
    You propably will but atleast it seems not worth it for now, then...

    BTW, does anyone have experience with the Templar ability Mettle? It looks good on paper, but are there that many spells with Fort/Will partial? Also, there is the issue of having to succeed on the save in the first place. ;)

    Disintegrate. Though the partial damage would only be 5d6. So yeah, not that common...
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Grrrr... Will Saves.

    what about your spellcasters? when i play a caster the first thing i do is neutralize the opposing caster first so that my meat shield doesn't drop and leave me vulnerable. Remove fear is a must for any party. Also hold person is spell that allows you to nmake a new save each round until successful... or dead. Too many people see spellcasters as a personal time to shine. Instead use spells to empower the rest of the party or change the terrain to give the rest of the party an advantage (unless of course you're playing a sorc in which case your only good as a walking uzi/rpg). I once went six level without casting a spell that directly damaged an enemy (and that was only because the party was griping that a fireball would really help them out:)

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