The easy fix to shiver touch

[A Tad Insane]

We all know the legends, about how a lvl 5 wizard can kill an adult dragon in two rounds, the fabled spell that is only used once before the dm bans it for eternity, but seriously, why do people stick to the RAW so hard with it? It was an obvious typo, so why not just prevent it from lower dex below one like a rational person? In new groups, people don't really know what happens when you get a 0 non-con ability score, and veterans know what the spell was supposed to do. It just bugs me, and I wanted to vent.

[Vaz]

Because we are dealing with a game that is so varied and based around houserules to function, on forums when it is unlikely even 1% of the sites members have played with each other, you have to talk in terms of RAW, unless explicitly mentioned. there are easy fixes for everything, whether it is Planar Shepherd abuse, or Ladders into poles.

[Story]

The real fix is Scintillating Scales, but unless you want to make all your dragons Incatrices, they won't be able to keep it up for long.

[Beardbarian]

The real fix is Scintillating Scales, but unless you want to make all your dragons Incatrices, they won't be able to keep it up for long.

Easy fix = Fort negates

[Maginomicon]

We all know the legends, about how a lvl 5 wizard can kill an adult dragon in two rounds, the fabled spell that is only used once before the dm bans it for eternity, but seriously, why do people stick to the RAW so hard with it? It was an obvious typo, so why not just prevent it from lower dex below one like a rational person? In new groups, people don't really know what happens when you get a 0 non-con ability score, and veterans know what the spell was supposed to do. It just bugs me, and I wanted to vent.

Because as-is, it does ability damage, not an ability penalty. I house-rule it and its lesser version as doing penalties, as the duration line makes it obvious that they meant penalty.

[Rainbownaga]

0 dex means paralyzed ; dragons are immune to paralysis.

RAW fix :P

[Vaz]

They are immune to Paralysis effects, not Paralysis.

[Rainbownaga]

They are immune to Paralysis effects, not Paralysis.

Paralysis isn't a paralysis effect? Considering how people choose to interpret the RAW for ironheart surge, and the fact that we are trying to nerf shivering touch should let us read that dragons are immune to the paralysis effect of having 0 dex.

[ryu]

Paralysis isn't a paralysis effect? Considering how people choose to interpret the RAW for ironheart surge, and the fact that we are trying to nerf shivering touch should let us read that dragons are immune to the paralysis effect of having 0 dex.

That's paralysis resulting from a different effect, not paralysis as an effect in itself. Now you may or may not be able to iron heart surge the ability damage directly, but the paralysis resulting from it isn't the effect.

[Emperor Ing]

Ring of Energy Immunity: Cold.

Problem solved. Next question?

[Talya]

Easy fix = Fort negates

typically, this also means you get to use it without a touch attack, and probably at close (25ft +5ft/2 levels) range. Touch spells usually have a touch attack in place of a save, not in addition to it.

Still, the dragon does a lot better that way.

There's also the fact that the spell is generally dangerous to use without a lot of setup to render yourself immune to damage, first. Without tricks, it's a touch spell. As a wizard/sorcerer, getting to within touch range of a dragon is typically something you want to avoid. And then there's almost a 50% chance it does 9 or less dex damage and leaves you wide open for a counter attack

[Maginomicon]

That's paralysis resulting from a different effect, not paralysis as an effect in itself. Now you may or may not be able to iron heart surge the ability damage directly, but the paralysis resulting from it isn't the effect.

It's also a moot point since paralysis (regardless of the cause) prevents movement, which is required for an Iron Heart Surge maneuver anyway.

[Samalpetey]

Ring of Energy Immunity: Cold.

Problem solved. Next question?

IIRC, you need the cold subtype to be immune, not just cold immunity

[Piggy Knowles]

There are plenty of easy fixes to problem spells. Shivering Touch has several options - giving it a save and making it a penalty in the same vein as Ray of Enfeeblement are both excellent options.

But just because something can be fixed with an easy houserule doesn't mean that it's not broken...

[Karnith]

IIRC, you need the cold subtype to be immune, not just cold immunity

There's that, and also a ring that costs roughly a quarter of a 20th-level character's recommended WBL is probably not the best (or, at least, most efficient) counter to a third-level spell.

[Rainbownaga]

The discussions on iron heart surge point out that 'effect' is not clearly defined and talk about IHS-ing the sun for exmple.

Nowhere does it say that effect only come from creatures. If you had a disease that inflicted the paralysed condition, a dragon infected by it would surely be immune to that effect.

Now, instead of having a rare disease, the dragon instead has a 0 dex score. This causes paralysis. Whether or not it can IHS it is irrelevant. This is not an effect of the shivering touch spell, it is a consequence of having 0 dex.

Is this a paralysis effect? I would still say yes. Part of me hopes that the designers saw the dragons' achillies heel and gave it a counter.

(Heck, you could theoretically give dragons immunity to dex damage since all dex damage really is is gradual paralysis.)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, it's just one interpretation, but it's one that saves a lot of headaches.

[Lord Vukodlak]

typically, this also means you get to use it without a touch attack, and probably at close (25ft +5ft/2 levels) range. Touch spells usually have a touch attack in place of a save, not in addition to it.

Slay Living is a touch spell and fort negates, in addition inflict spells are touch and have a save. Nights Caress deals physical damage and con damage but the save only effects the ability damage.

[Emperor Tippy]

The real fix was Mantle of the Icy Snow from Frostburn before the stupid stealth errata in Spell Compendium. It was instantaneous and gave you the cold subtype along with immunity to cold. Combine with Mantle of the Fiery Spirit from Sandstorm for the fire subtype (which wasn't ever changed) and you were forever more immune to both fire and cold with no downside.

And every dragon of even moderate age had both of them already cast on them.

[herrhauptmann]

Slay Living is a touch spell and fort negates,

Which is a death spell. Imagine the uproar if there was a death spell that was just a touch attack. Even disintegrate has a save vs turning into a pile of ash.

in addition inflict spells are touch and have a save.

Save for will half.
There's also the mass version, which is the same spell. Take away the save on regular inflict, and the mass inflict spells would (should) lose it too.
Bing, auto damage against the whole party since mass inflict doesn't even require a touch attack.

For both of the above, there's also probably an element of rules carryover.
Both of the examples are spells from older editions where they also required a touch attack and a save (different rulesets, different save, but a save nonetheless).

[Jack_Simth]

The real fix was Mantle of the Icy Snow from Frostburn before the stupid stealth errata in Spell Compendium. It was instantaneous and gave you the cold subtype along with immunity to cold. Combine with Mantle of the Fiery Spirit from Sandstorm for the fire subtype (which wasn't ever changed) and you were forever more immune to both fire and cold with no downside.

There is one downside: The Fire and Cold domain power. You trade HP vulnerabilities for a particular status vulnerability (a fairly uncommon one, granted).

[Chronos]

Remember, it's not just dragons that it works on. Sure, a dragon of reasonable age can be expected to have protective magic items, or Scintillating Scales, or have gotten Mantle spells cast on them, or whatever... But a wild T. rex won't have any of those things, and it's unreasonable for a 5th-level wizard to one-shot one of those, too.

[Morithias]

I usually just scare my players off with a claim.

"The fastest you ever end an encounter is how fast your enemies will try to beat you. Consider the world to have rubber-band AI."

Sure your wizard may have shivering touch, but that Dark Changeling Deathstalker has a Death Attack DC of 40, through a legit build. Good luck making your save!

Basically if they start one slotting stuff, I make it clear I'm going to play rocket tag back.

And the DM....always wins in the end.

[olentu]

I usually just scare my players off with a claim.

"The fastest you ever end an encounter is how fast your enemies will try to beat you. Consider the world to have rubber-band AI."

Sure your wizard may have shivering touch, but that Dark Changeling Deathstalker has a Death Attack DC of 40, through a legit build. Good luck making your save!

Basically if they start one slotting stuff, I make it clear I'm going to play rocket tag back.

And the DM....always wins in the end.

Eh, there is no need for jerk DMing tactics. Just ban the spell if you don't like it.

[ryu]

Eh, there is no need for jerk DMing tactics. Just ban the spell if you don't like it.

Or just talk with your players like a human being if you don't like what they're doing. These are ostensibly friends you want to have a fun time with, not children to be the target of fear tactics.

[Morithias]

Or just talk with your players like a human being if you don't like what they're doing. These are ostensibly friends you want to have a fun time with, not children to be the target of fear tactics.

My friends perfectly understand what I mean by it. It's not a fear tactic, it's simply that the world isn't stupid.

The more they optimize, the more the rest of the world optimizes.

I usually sum up my logic as follows.

"Do you honestly think your 18 year old mage is the first one to come up with that idea?"

[ryu]

My friends perfectly understand what I mean by it. It's not a fear tactic, it's simply that the world isn't stupid.

The more they optimize, the more the rest of the world optimizes.

I usually sum up my logic as follows.

"Do you honestly think your 18 year old mage is the first one to come up with that idea?"

That isn't the point. The point is the tone you deliberately took of eventually winning by force of resources rather than merely scaling encounter difficulty to match your players power. I play high tier one all the time while fully expecting if not demanding the DM to make something that can challenge that. Deliberately going above and beyond making things even to ''win'' is indeed a fear tactic whether or not you acknowledge it as one.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Which is a death spell. Imagine the uproar if there was a death spell that was just a touch attack.

Kinda like the uproar from dealing 3d6 dex damage(no save) which is effectively a death spell that's just a touch attack?

For both of the above, there's also probably an element of rules carryover.
Both of the examples are spells from older editions where they also required a touch attack and a save (different rulesets, different save, but a save nonetheless).

Vampiric Touch and Shocking Grasp had saving throws in earlier editions but they don't anymore. So the carry over argument is moot.

There's also the mass version, which is the same spell. Take away the save on regular inflict, and the mass inflict spells would (should) lose it too.

Not really, if a spell has no saving throw because it requires an attack roll. There is no reason for "no save" to carry over to the mass version as its no longer touch. I could pick through the books and likely find a dozen or more touch spells that have a saving throw. The examples of saving and touch spells underscore the fact that being a touch spell doesn't automatically exempt it from having a saving throw.

[Morithias]

That isn't the point. The point is the tone you deliberately took of eventually winning by force of resources rather than merely scaling encounter difficulty to match your players power. I play high tier one all the time while fully expecting if not demanding the DM to make something that can challenge that. Deliberately going above and beyond making things even to ''win'' is indeed a fear tactic whether or not you acknowledge it as one.

It's not about 'winning' it about making it clear to the players I don't accept cheap mary-sue style playing like this.

Imagine if you said "do whatever" to a player, and one player showed up with Pun-Pun.

Are you seriously not going to stop him?

That's the same way with me, and shivering touch and other such non-cinematic and cheap tricks.

[ryu]

It's not about 'winning' it about making it clear to the players I don't accept cheap mary-sue style playing like this.

Imagine if you said "do whatever" to a player, and one player showed up with Pun-Pun.

Are you seriously not going to stop him?

That's the same way with me, and shivering touch and other such non-cinematic and cheap tricks.

I quite deliberately wouldn't. The fact that he brought that means he wants a game where pun-pun is a thing that can be done. His enemies will also be pun-pun and his allies will also be allowed to pun-pun. Pun-pun on pun-pun murder party. I've played in games like that. It was AWESOME!

[Morithias]

I quite deliberately wouldn't. The fact that he brought that means he wants a game where pun-pun is a thing that can be done. His enemies will also be pun-pun and his allies will also be allowed to pun-pun. Pun-pun on pun-pun murder party. I've played in games like that. It was AWESOME!

And how is that different from me scaling my encounters to similar "instant kill" techniques when the PCs are using instant win techniques?