Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 122

Thread: High magic

  1. - Top - End - #1

    Default High magic

    When a party hits 8th level or so, they leave the world of the mundane. The fighters have magic equipment, the casters have high level evocation and nifty transport spells, which, imo, are hallmarks of high level magic. The ability to bend space and inflict massive devastation pretty much blows everything out of the water, in terms of realism.

    The whole campaign world may be a low magic setting– workers aren't dimension dooring their way to the Tenser Train. Which is fine. Common magic makes things needlessly complicated, like managing the verisimilitude of social stratification and economies in what is presumably a feudal pseudo-europe.

    (Enterprising sorcerors would use their spells to summon unseen servants– performing the work of 4 laborers would be a more lucrative feat than putting things to sleep, especially if you weren't particularly interested in a soldiering life.)

    But this means that the PCs aren't interested in the vast majority of creatures in the world. Well, perhaps they are, as they are trying to save the world, but their energies are directed at a few more powerful, magical, and/or extraordinary individuals. Which means that the NPCs are most likely going to be outsiders, elementals, or high level creatures. Things that aren't powerful will be of little use or threat to the PCs.

    What does this imply?
    The PCs' world, as they gain in power, necessarily becomes high magic. Which means for any campaign that gets to mid levels, the PCs exit the realm of reality, and enter a place where magic and the ridiculous are common place.

    Wizards, if given preparation and foreknowledge of a situation, tear everything up. Or down. Or really however they Wish. But at 18th level, the creatures that a party is engaging will certainly be aware of the power of wizards. Hell, most of the time, they're some sort of magic beast themselves/ Every fighter on the material plane is going to be wearing items that cast AMFs.

    I posit that wizards and other casters aren't nearly as powerful as everyone in the gaming community makes them out to be– unless you play your NPCs as naive denizens who haven't ever heard of magic, or simply ignored it over the course of their 100s of years of magical, extraplanar existence. In essence, at higher levels, casters will cancel each other our. Individuals and parties will outfit themselves with antimagic and protective sorts of items, and the damage will be left to fighters.

    Those 100 rampaging goblins may not be able to scrounge enough resources to afford a single ioun stone to absorb spells, and for a 25 CR encounter (yeah, right), they sure get cleaned up by fireballs. But you know who cares about 100 rampaging goblins? Commoners, paladins and apprentice wizards. Certainly not the level 15 party trying to save the world from demonic corruption.

  2. - Top - End - #2

    Default Re: High magic

    So, what you're saying is that wizards aren't that powerful because of... other wizards.

    And because... every enemy will have an antimagic field item.


    ...

    ...

    Um. Yeah. 'Kay.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR POINT IS?!?!

    Somehow, I did enjoy your post?

    Yeah, well there you go. Good stuff. I agree that wizards arent as powerful as they are made out to be (though they are DAMN powerful).

    Tis Halcyon Dax! Forsooth!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazzbaa View Post
    Rocks will fall, everyone will die.

  4. - Top - End - #4

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    So, what you're saying is that wizards aren't that powerful because of... other wizards.

    And because... every enemy will have an antimagic field item.


    ...

    ...

    Um. Yeah. 'Kay.
    Virtually, yes.

    A party of wizards is going to get trumped by a single fighter with any item that can hold off magic for 60 seconds.

    In a reality where magic's paramount, it will be every creature's imperative to protect itself from magic.

  5. - Top - End - #5

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Halcyon_Dax View Post
    I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR POINT IS?!?!

    Somehow, I did enjoy your post?

    Yeah, well there you go. Good stuff. I agree that wizards arent as powerful as they are made out to be (though they are DAMN powerful).
    I'm saying that if your campaign world has any modicum of coherency, wizards' power will be severly limited because at high levels (when wizards become powerful), as any potential threats to a wizard will likewise have defenses against wizards!

  6. - Top - End - #6

    Default Re: High magic

    Right.

    Except for the fact that the wizards can stay out of reach far more easily, since a fighter in an AMF can't fly, and can just fire instantaneous conjurations, which don't care about AMFs. Or drop rocks from a Bag of Holding. Or just shoot about a thousand bolts from a crossbow. Or wait for the AMF to run out.

    It's easy to say "have defenses against wizards". It's much more difficult to actually do so.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    purple gelatinous cube o' Doom's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    on a cosmic wagon train
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    well, unless potential threats have all phenominal saves and DR of every type, not everything is wizard proof. For example, if a creature doesn't have a great reflex save, throw a fireball or a blade barrier at it. Or use flame strike on a severed hydra head so it doesn't come back. My point is that nothing is totally wizard proof, you just have to know the weakness of what you're fighting.
    Grinning Purple Gelatinous Cube avatar courtesy of Lord_Herman
    Attacking Cube courtesy of Sampi
    Current avatar courtesy of Rutskarn

    My GiTP stuff
    Spoiler
    Show
    DM
    Currently none

    Player
    currently none

    Creations:
    Fimbulwight

    I have my own RB thread right here.





    Come and join in the newly minted Fictional Character Contest

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2006

    Default Re: High magic

    Unfortunately, the AMF has never been a very good plan. It is actually very well illustrated in your post. All fighters have magic, tons of gear, etc, because these things are necessary when facing enemies of that level. What antimagic feild does is completely cut a figher off from this equipment, in exchange for providing protection against direct magic. Unfortunately, this means that the fighter is restricted from ANY magic, while their spellcasting opponent is restricted from SOME magic, and since magic is very important at high levels, all you've done is screw yourself unless you are certain of your opponent's arsenal.

    Far more useful is an object of spell resistance of a suitably high level. Even if it only works 25% of the time that's a 25% miss chance against magic, in exchange for a relatively much smaller penalty.

    now, I do agree that the power of wizards and other spellcasters is much exaggerated, mostly because far too many people are of the attitude "a wizard can beat a fighter in a one-on-one duel, therefore the wizard is better"
    My Webcomic:

    Now in color!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Emperor Tippy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Earth

    Default Re: High magic

    Not to mention all the ways to defeat AMF's. Many of the Force line of spells ignore it or work inside of it. You cast TK Sphere on the guy with the AMF and float him up as high as you can. Then you dismiss the sphere. The Fighter falls down and thanks to his AMF item he can't turn on fly or anything else. How often can he take 20d6 falling damage? Or better yet you raise him and cast a prismatic wall underneath the sphere, which you then dismiss. AMF does not affect a prismatic wall and one of those is almost guaranteed to end a fighter. But just in case you add a second one below it.

    Wizards win. At high levels AMF is at most an inconvenience and at best is actually helpful. Disjunction+Timestop+Cloudkill+Forcecage wins any fight where the target can't use magic of his own. Maybe throw in a dimensional anchor as well to be extra safe.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2006

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Wizards win. At high levels AMF is at most an inconvenience and at best is actually helpful. Disjunction+Timestop+Cloudkill+Forcecage wins any fight where the target can't use magic of his own. Maybe throw in a dimensional anchor as well to be extra safe.
    Well, that's not true at all, but most fights against fighters. But, that's really still not that big an issue. Duel results do not equal game balance.
    My Webcomic:

    Now in color!

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by oriong View Post
    now, I do agree that the power of wizards and other spellcasters is much exaggerated, mostly because far too many people are of the attitude "a wizard can beat a fighter in a one-on-one duel, therefore the wizard is better"
    No, a wizard is better because he can contirbute far, far more in any encounter that doesn't take place inside a dead magic zone than the fighter. Also because he can do anything.

  12. - Top - End - #12

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Right.

    Except for the fact that the wizards can stay out of reach far more easily, since a fighter in an AMF can't fly, and can just fire instantaneous conjurations, which don't care about AMFs. Or drop rocks from a Bag of Holding. Or just shoot about a thousand bolts from a crossbow. Or wait for the AMF to run out.

    It's easy to say "have defenses against wizards". It's much more difficult to actually do so.
    Boots of flying+grapple+AMF. They all fall down. Or a cape of mountebank. A flying mount. A potion of fly. Single use items of DD. Characters are rolling in so much gold at higher levels, a fighter can easily get his mobility up to that of a wizard, temporarily. How many blasts does it take to kill a fighter? How many chops to kill a wizard?

    I imagine that virtually every nonmagic character (that is, without a full caster progression) will, at higher levels, have a contigency plan for encounters with full casters, including fleeings.

    If I was a monster with a big bag of loot, I'd put a few poison coins in there. Maybe some disease, too. Wizard shows up, I take off and leave my phat pot o' poisoned gold. Let's see how many fort saves he can pass!

    Granted, a wizard greeting the day fresh faced and dewey-eyed, his full compliment of anti-fighter spells ready to go, will have a much greater chance of winning. But scrolls are more expensive that potion. The wizard wears out quicker. But only a fool would enter an arena situation against a well prepared wizard.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2006

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    No, a wizard is better because he can contirbute far, far more in any encounter that doesn't take place inside a dead magic zone than the fighter. Also because he can do anything.
    Not true. Obviously the wizard can't do anything so I won't even bother to get into that.

    As for the 'contribute more' claim this is only true in certain situations, in other situations it is the exact opposite. I will agree that the wizard will outshine the fighter (mostly because any straightforward fighter is a bad choice, and because they simply aren't that good a class after low-mid levels, but the difference is not nearly as significant as it's made out to be. A wizard is excellent in situations where preparation is possible and works to his advantage. The wizard is weak when the situation is one he is not prepared for, as time goes on when he becomes low on spells, or when his preparation is used against him, or when placed in a situation where his weakness can be used against him (melee, creatures highly magic resistance, against excellent saves, even the occasional dead or antimagic zone).

    Of course, far more powerful than either is the fighter and wizard working together.
    My Webcomic:

    Now in color!

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by oriong View Post
    Unfortunately, the AMF has never been a very good plan. It is actually very well illustrated in your post. All fighters have magic, tons of gear, etc, because these things are necessary when facing enemies of that level. What antimagic feild does is completely cut a figher off from this equipment, in exchange for providing protection against direct magic. Unfortunately, this means that the fighter is restricted from ANY magic, while their spellcasting opponent is restricted from SOME magic, and since magic is very important at high levels, all you've done is screw yourself unless you are certain of your opponent's arsenal.

    Far more useful is an object of spell resistance of a suitably high level. Even if it only works 25% of the time that's a 25% miss chance against magic, in exchange for a relatively much smaller penalty.

    now, I do agree that the power of wizards and other spellcasters is much exaggerated, mostly because far too many people are of the attitude "a wizard can beat a fighter in a one-on-one duel, therefore the wizard is better"
    AMF as use activated. A wizard is only a high level adept inside a AMF. You still have a pointy stick.
    Or throw it at him.
    Tanglefoot bag with a use activated AMF, a net with an AMF on it, arrows of AMF....

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2006

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tor the Fallen View Post
    Boots of flying+grapple+AMF. They all fall down. Or a cape of mountebank. A flying mount. A potion of fly. Single use items of DD. Characters are rolling in so much gold at higher levels, a fighter can easily get his mobility up to that of a wizard, temporarily. How many blasts does it take to kill a fighter? How many chops to kill a wizard?
    None of those really work either, dimension door doesn't let you attack after you go through, and unless you start out in melee range you'll never fly fast enough to catch up to a wizard to grapple him (especially if he wins initiative when he just dimenion doors away), in theory a flying mount could help, but unless it's very fast and very resilient it's much more of a target than an ally.

    But scrolls are more expensive that potion. The wizard wears out quicker. But only a fool would enter an arena situation against a well prepared wizard.
    actually scrolls are cheaper than potions. half the cost.
    AMF as use activated. A wizard is only a high level adept inside a AMF. You still have a pointy stick.
    Or throw it at him.
    Tanglefoot bag with a use activated AMF, a net with an AMF on it, arrows of AMF....
    You assume he's in the field, which is a bad assumption. Also, use activated means it'll be always on, which means you die from anything other than a wizard, or a wizard who is outside the field (for reasons pointed out already).

    The tanglefoot bag and net both have tiny range, so you'd better win initiative (someone will bring up moment of presience I'm sure), but both interesting ideas though.
    Last edited by oriong; 2007-01-06 at 02:42 AM.
    My Webcomic:

    Now in color!

  16. - Top - End - #16

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tor the Fallen View Post
    Boots of flying+grapple+AMF. They all fall down. Or a cape of mountebank. A flying mount. A potion of fly. Single use items of DD. Characters are rolling in so much gold at higher levels, a fighter can easily get his mobility up to that of a wizard, temporarily. How many blasts does it take to kill a fighter? How many chops to kill a wizard?
    You're going to activate the AMF after you reach the wizard and grapple? Then the wizard(s) can kill you before you get to them. If you're flying, you have no AMF. If you have an AMF, you're not flying, unless you have natural flight (which will generally be slower than magical flight; this doesn't apply to things like, oh, dragons).

    Nonmagical characters can plan all they want, but they just plain don't have as many options as casters do. Even if you allow whatever custom items people want, casters will benefit from that just as much as fighters. Casters have a bewildering array of offensive and defensive options. A useful generic list will let a wizard take on lots of different things, and since encounters can often be ended in two to four spells, the wizard will can last for a number of encounters. When he runs out of spells, he generally rests in magical safety.

    Edit: an item of use-activated AMF costs 6*11*2000*1.5 = 198,000 gp.
    And... everyone has one? Mm-hmm. Arrows of AMF can simply be plucked out and moved away from, good luck hitting anything far away with a net or tanglefoot back of AMF.
    Last edited by Bears With Lasers; 2007-01-06 at 02:44 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #17

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by oriong View Post
    None of those really work either, dimension door doesn't let you attack after you go through, and unless you start out in melee range you'll never fly fast enough to catch up to a wizard to grapple him (especially if he wins initiative when he just dimenion doors away), in theory a flying mount could help, but unless it's very fast and very resilient it's much more of a target than an ally.
    Forgot about not being able to do anything after you DD. Eh, just DD ontop of him for falling damage. Spiked boots. :)

    Windwalk is faster than fly.

    actually scrolls are cheaper than potions. half the cost.
    I meant that a high level spell that has a chance to hurt a high level fighter-type will cost thousands of gold. A potion of cure costs considerably less (700 for serious). Wizard shows up, wastes spells on fighter. Fighter escapes, drinks potions, back in the fight. Wizard reduced to casting from scrolls. Scroll costs grow exponentially. If you want a chance of hitting anything with a fireball scroll, you're going to have to scribe it as a 10th level character, not a fifth. That increases the cost by a factor of 5.


    But this is all digression.
    I don't mean this as a single fighter vs a single wizard, without multiclassing, in a duel. That's silly. And it really isn't that great of a campaign, either.

    Monsters with wealth and intelligence scores are going to have items that mitigate the effects of magic. Wizards aren't the zomg pwnzr! machines if, as a DM, you take a little time to flesh your world out.
    Giants from other planes, for instance, aren't just sitting around with a bag of gold waiting for a wizard to cast a save or die spell on them. And they're pretty old. Bet you wizened men in pointy hats and robes have showed up before, trying to take their stuff. Bet you they got anti wizard plans.

    Unless of course, you enjoy seeing wizards do everything.

  18. - Top - End - #18

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    You're going to activate the AMF after you reach the wizard and grapple? Then the wizard(s) can kill you before you get to them. If you're flying, you have no AMF. If you have an AMF, you're not flying, unless you have natural flight (which will generally be slower than magical flight; this doesn't apply to things like, oh, dragons).
    Get to him and turn it on next to him. Magic goes off, both of you fall. A fighter can take a tumble. Can the wizard?

    Nonmagical characters can plan all they want, but they just plain don't have as many options as casters do. Even if you allow whatever custom items people want, casters will benefit from that just as much as fighters.
    True.

    Edit: an item of use-activated AMF costs 6*11*2000*1.5 = 198,000 gp.
    And... everyone has one? Mm-hmm. Arrows of AMF can simply be plucked out and moved away from, good luck hitting anything far away with a net or tanglefoot back of AMF.
    Not anyone.
    The level 19 BBEG?
    Certainly.
    Dragons?
    Definitely.


    And AMF isn't all there is. Items that absorb spells, items that cast dimensional anchor, or grant SR would all be common, as well as items used to hide from magic or escape until the mage is gone would also be present.

    Even through natural selection, one would expect creatures that have energy and spell resistance to become more common. Common in the "everything the PCs are encountering are high level" sense.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Rockphed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Near Giant Graffiti.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Wizards win. At high levels AMF is at most an inconvenience and at best is actually helpful. Disjunction+Timestop+Cloudkill+Forcecage wins any fight where the target can't use magic of his own. Maybe throw in a dimensional anchor as well to be extra safe.
    Hmmm, at 20th level, a 1 in five chance of dispelling the anti-magic feild? For force cage to work, you need to be within about 75 feet, and it can't work in the anti-magic field, so how does that work? Cloudkill + Timestop + ForceCage would work, if there were no anti-magic field, but you have 115 feet, max between you and the feild's center, and nothing stops the fighter from just readying an arrow to shoot you if you cast a spell. Without scrolls, a 20th level abjuror can cast Disjunction 5 times a day. So the wizard has just used up all his 9th level spells on the 1st encounter of the day, when there is a giant evil villian plotting to kill the universe if you don't destroy him in 5 hours. Great planning. Great Versatility. Don't you just love the party wizard for plotting to destroy you like that.

    SR 20 costs about 70 k, 30 costs 170 k, and can be purchased by a lvl 19 character. Though the one won't stop a lvl 20 caster, the 30 one will stop him half the time, and it is possible to raise the SR a bit and still be within the limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    We should change the collective noun for crocodiles to "an abundance of crocodiles".
    Dragontar by Serpentine.

    Now offering unsolicited advice.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Not this... Argument... Again... *twitch*

    EDIT:

    It all comes down to this.

    Wizard can contribute much more due to his versatility. Fighter migth be excellent when he gets to melee but when the dragon starts using his fly by attacks, fighter can't do that. There is a lot of enemies to which the same applies. Wizard has save or dies, save or sucks, save or loses and the belowed "no save, lose", such as forcecage combined with effects denying the target from teleporting.

    HOWEVER. If you don't think that wizards are overpowered, it means that
    a) Your DM nerfs them or puts stuff like antimagic fields all the time
    b) Your wizard's player plays them far less effectively than he could, either intentionally or nor

    Whichever is the case, it obiously doesn't matter to you so no need to participate this argument, which has been done weekly.
    Last edited by Pegasos989; 2007-01-06 at 04:45 AM.
    Maggots in the Meat: IC thread, OOC thread, dierolls

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Skyserpent's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    with Carmen Sandiego.

    Default Re: High magic

    Well, there was this one cadre of apprentice Wizards who had gotten ahold of this thing called Cannabis... Dude... Color Spray... DUDE!

    okay not what you meant... and darn...

    But yeah, I dunno, high-magic usually means the DM doesn't pay attention to Wealth By Level... That was fun, level 8 PC getting ahold of +3 Mithral Full Plate of Speed is always fun...
    Member of a fanclub.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Hmmm, at 20th level, a 1 in five chance of dispelling the anti-magic feild? For force cage to work, you need to be within about 75 feet, and it can't work in the anti-magic field, so how does that work? Cloudkill + Timestop + ForceCage would work, if there were no anti-magic field, but you have 115 feet, max between you and the feild's center, and nothing stops the fighter from just readying an arrow to shoot you if you cast a spell. Without scrolls, a 20th level abjuror can cast Disjunction 5 times a day. So the wizard has just used up all his 9th level spells on the 1st encounter of the day, when there is a giant evil villian plotting to kill the universe if you don't destroy him in 5 hours. Great planning. Great Versatility. Don't you just love the party wizard for plotting to destroy you like that.

    SR 20 costs about 70 k, 30 costs 170 k, and can be purchased by a lvl 19 character. Though the one won't stop a lvl 20 caster, the 30 one will stop him half the time, and it is possible to raise the SR a bit and still be within the limit.

    Maximized empowered shivering touch + Ray of exhaustion disables any fighter with less than 29 dex. (Use with archmage's reach spell)

    SR? At that level, wizard has casterlevel 20 from levels, +1 from item so +21 to overcome SR. Adding spell penetration is not far fetched so +23. Now, complete arcane feat to take 10 on casterlevel checks means he automatically punches through any SR under 34. If he can't punch through opponent's SR and opponent is decent in melee, it is propably a boss fight so single use items (+4 on casterlevel) seem reasonable to be used. If target has more SR than 38, wizard could just say "aww... I have to waste a spell slot..." and get assay spell resistance (it adds +10 to this, if I remember correctly). If opponents with higher sr than 48 are common, I would take even greater spell penetration. If enemies have higher SR than 50, you have a point there. Then wizard will simply be restricted to empowered orbs of <element> changed to sonic, dealing 22d6 of damage to which opponent is not resistant...
    Last edited by Pegasos989; 2007-01-06 at 05:02 AM.
    Maggots in the Meat: IC thread, OOC thread, dierolls

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Behold_the_Void's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Piercing the heavens!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Something tells me a wizard who is out adventuring won't be 100% prepared for any given situation 100% of the time, nor will they always be aware of it, nor will they have the convenience of little things like "space" to fly around as they please.

    This argument's been done to death, but I generally agree that wizards are made to look far better than they really are. Are wizards powerful? You bet. Are they unbeatable? Hardly. And if it takes another wizard to do it so what? Another wizard taking up your wizard's attention still means that the fighter with a pointy stick is a real threat to you. That's what your own fighter is for. Keeping the other fighter out of range of your soft, defenseless flesh.


    Incredibly GAR avatar by Ninja_Chocobo.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Wow, I've only been lurking for two weeks and I'm already tired of this.

    Briefly: The most effective way to beat a spellcaster is to pitch enough waves of enemies at them that they'll eventually run out of spells. They will still handle those waves of enemies more effectively than a melee type would, and the process is so boring and obviously anti-caster that who would actually want to play it as anything but a strategic exercise in spell economy?

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ZekeArgo's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Kissimmee, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Behold_the_Void View Post
    Something tells me a wizard who is out adventuring won't be 100% prepared for any given situation 100% of the time, nor will they always be aware of it, nor will they have the convenience of little things like "space" to fly around as they please.

    This argument's been done to death, but I generally agree that wizards are made to look far better than they really are. Are wizards powerful? You bet. Are they unbeatable? Hardly. And if it takes another wizard to do it so what? Another wizard taking up your wizard's attention still means that the fighter with a pointy stick is a real threat to you. That's what your own fighter is for. Keeping the other fighter out of range of your soft, defenseless flesh.
    This is laughable. If it takes another wizard to beat a wizard so what? That means *wizards* are more powerful.

    Also, a wizard of high level in the field has access one really good, but overlooked thing by most people: Divination. Use those high-level divinations to find out what spells you'll need to prepare that day, and your good.

    And if *that* isn't good enough for you, check out the Complete Arcane and pickup a Thought Bottle or five. Unless there has been some serious errata its over, all contingencies are planned for and you just don't run out of spells.
    "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."-Urza

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Behold_the_Void's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Piercing the heavens!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by ZekeArgo View Post
    This is laughable. If it takes another wizard to beat a wizard so what? That means *wizards* are more powerful.

    Also, a wizard of high level in the field has access one really good, but overlooked thing by most people: Divination. Use those high-level divinations to find out what spells you'll need to prepare that day, and your good.

    And if *that* isn't good enough for you, check out the Complete Arcane and pickup a Thought Bottle or five. Unless there has been some serious errata its over, all contingencies are planned for and you just don't run out of spells.
    Where in my post did I say a Wizard wasn't more powerful than a Fighter? I've never, ever made that argument. I simply said that the Fighter has its use, and that the Wizard isn't always going to be prepared for every little thing, even at higher levels. Any DM worth his salt knows some way to throw a wrench in the Wizard's plans, even if that wrench is another Wizard. Anything the PCs can do the DM can do too.

    Divination is hardly infallible. Say you're scrying and somebody else catches you. Then they're fully prepared to one-up you.

    People always go into these highly theoretical "best case scenario" forumlas, but it simply isn't the case. There are any number of ways to cripple a wizard or lessen his effectiveness. Wizards are far from all-powerful, although they could probably stand to be nerfed considerably whenever 4.0 comes out.


    Incredibly GAR avatar by Ninja_Chocobo.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Matthew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kanagawa, Japan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Arrows of Dispelling could solve so many problems... or maybe Arrows of Wizard Slaying...
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Shazzbaa's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    In the corner, drawing.
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: High magic

    *laughs* I'm with Bouldering Jove. It's amazing how fast I feel like I've heard this a million times. ^^;

    I don't understand why people constantly feel the need to prove that the classes are balanced, or that the fighter can beat the wizard, or that wizards aren't "all that powerful." Personally, if I never encounter the issue myself, it doesn't matter who can technically defeat who or which character can technically contribute more. If I enjoy my barbarian, despite the fact that the cleric is technically doing far more than him, then hey, there isn't a problem.
    And if I do encounter the problem, then there've been a wealth of fixes offered to alleviate the problem, which would no-doubt be looked into.

    But as to whether the problem should technically be there or not... eh, I don't really care.

    Though, more on topic, I noticed something else. They were talking in the "large and very large changes to D&D" thread about how one of the problems with casters is that they're very all-or-nothing. You fail your save against my spell? You're dead. You make your save against my spell? I'm useless.
    Well, here we go again. What's the proposed method of dealing with casters, primarily? An anti-magic field or dead magic zone. It's the same thing again. Either you CAN do the thing that your class is designed to do, and you do well, or you're completely denied the thing that your class is designed to do, and you can be beaten.

    Why must casters be so all-or-nothing?

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ZekeArgo's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Kissimmee, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Behold_the_Void View Post
    Where in my post did I say a Wizard wasn't more powerful than a Fighter? I've never, ever made that argument. I simply said that the Fighter has its use, and that the Wizard isn't always going to be prepared for every little thing, even at higher levels. Any DM worth his salt knows some way to throw a wrench in the Wizard's plans, even if that wrench is another Wizard. Anything the PCs can do the DM can do too.

    Divination is hardly infallible. Say you're scrying and somebody else catches you. Then they're fully prepared to one-up you.
    Ah, while your inside of your rope trick? Or since we're assuming extremely high level here perhaps the wizard purchaced a few castings of Genesis and makes use of a Plane Shift to relax in his personal warded demiplane. Or any number of other defenses that a wizard can bring to the table.

    People always go into these highly theoretical "best case scenario" forumlas, but it simply isn't the case. There are any number of ways to cripple a wizard or lessen his effectiveness. Wizards are far from all-powerful, although they could probably stand to be nerfed considerably whenever 4.0 comes out.
    As you've stated a wizard can only be beaten by another wizard, and one that has to be played better than the PC. You try to bring a fighter in to "menace" the wizard then the wizards trip/disarm/sunder monk ally can make said fighter completely useless while the wizard gets to work owning everything else.

    If something can only be countered by a better version of itself then how can you say the thing isn't obscenely powerful?
    "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."-Urza

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: High magic

    And the problem with throwing hordes and hordes at the wizard is, that after he runs out of AoE nukes to massacre them with, he just teleports to someplace within 100 miles/caster level, then climbs inside a Rope Trick. Even a simple 9th level caster, the minimum for Teleport, has a 40,000 mile area to hide in (actually a bit less, that's a 200m diameter square, and I can't remember the formula for the area of a circle right now). Is the remnants of the horde big enough to search 40000 square miles (roughly) in 8 hours, before the wizard recovers his spell slots and does it again?

    ^Two posts above. Agreed - it would make casters a lot more interesting if their overall power level went down somehow, but added a lot more Partial effects to spells...say, Hold Person could have a Speed-reducing effect on a successful save.

    And yes, this dead horse has been beaten into unrecognizable fragments.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2007-01-06 at 06:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •