Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[rodneyAnonymous]

The order of events thing doesn't affect my statement. I don't consider the boulder a weapon at all, I guess.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The order of events thing doesn't affect my statement. I don't consider the boulder a weapon at all, I guess.

An improvised weapon is still a weapon.

GW

[Fish]

Is there a limit on what may be considered an improvised weapon? It sounds like that rule means you get an AOO if you're holding anything at all (eg, torch, kitten, bag of groceries, reins of horse). Or is that the intent?

[Shale]

It's a DM's judgment call what counts as an "improvised weapon." They can also decide on the fly what the damage from hitting with said weapon should be, down to a flat 1 point.

[rodneyAnonymous]

An improvised weapon is still a weapon.

But anything you use to attack with is not automatically an improvised weapon. IMO the boulder is not analogous to any kind of weapon.

It sounds like that rule means you get an AOO if you're holding anything at all (eg, torch, kitten, bag of groceries, reins of horse). Or is that the intent?

You get an AoO, if you can make one, regardless of what you're holding that your opponent is trying to sunder. Thog couldn't have made one, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But anything you use to attack with is not automatically an improvised weapon.

[citation needed]. "Because you say so" is not a valid reason.

By RAW:

Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.

Any object used in combat is per definition an improvised weapon. A DM might rule that something like a feather does 0 damage and thus might not be considered a weapon, but a massive boulder clearly is an improvised weapon.

GW

[rodneyAnonymous]

[citation needed]. "Because you say so" is not a valid reason.

But "Because I say it ain't so" is a valid reason? :P It totally is a valid reason, but I'd amend that slightly to be "because the DM says so". No DM I know would allow a player to make an attack of opportunity with a boulder. It seems silly to suggest that should be possible, and I feel like you're arguing because of who raised the question, not because of the question itself.

Any object used in combat is per definition an improvised weapon. A DM might rule that something like a feather does 0 damage and thus might not be considered a weapon, but a massive boulder clearly is an improvised weapon.

The first sentence is immediately contradicted by the second.

[halfeye]

The first sentence is immediately contradicted by the second.

Yeah, because he mis-spoke. It should have been, anything can be an improvised weapon, some are utterly ineffectual weapons, such as a feather, but if you're trying to use it as a weapon, even a feather is a weapon, just not typically a good one. There could probably be a situation where a desperate character tickled an opponent, or caused a sneeze, with a feather, and as a result of that action someone else killed them, so in those (very, very, rare) cases the feather would be a weapon that was involved in a death.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But "Because I say it ain't so" is a valid reason? :P

Did you miss the part where I quoted RAW to back-up my position, and you failed to show even a smidgeon of back-up for yours?

It totally is a valid reason, but I'd amend that slightly to be "because the DM says so". No DM I know would allow a player to make an attack of opportunity with a boulder.

Your constant fallbacks into arguments from personal authority are null and void. You give no reasons only that a boulder - clearly a dangerous object that can see use in combat - is not a weapon because you, as a DM, would not allow it to be a weapon. This is a circular reasoning fallacy, not an argument.

It seems silly to suggest that should be possible, and I feel like you're arguing because of who raised the question, not because of the question itself.

No, I'm arguing because I'm tired of you bringing up the same two topics over and over, being soundly shown that you have no support for them other than your say-so, and when no-one agrees, insist that nevertheless we should kow-tow to your opinion.

The first sentence is immediately contradicted by the second.

I disagree, but even if they are, the first one is RAW, the only thing that counts, and it says that every object is an improvised weapon when used in combat, and thus you have no leg to stand on.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

The order of events thing doesn't affect my statement. I don't consider the boulder a weapon at all, I guess.

Why is a boulder not a weapon? An arrow is clearly a weapon, even if used in melee. A rock is clearly an improvised weapon. And, as GW notes, you personally not considering a boulder a weapon doesn't make it so.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Improvised_Weapons "Any portable object can be used as a weapon in a pinch. In most cases, an object can be wielded either as a melee weapon or a ranged weapon."

A boulder is a portable object and thus can be used as an improvised weapon. Unless you have an actual rule-based argument, I'm afraid that's it.

[Dark Matter]

Yeah, Wolf has the right of it.

I'd quibble that anything which has an existing proficiency (swords, daggers) should be using that, but that's just a quibble.

[Chronos]

Can we please not use dandwiki as a source? Yeah, it's sometimes right, but it's often wrong, and the way to tell whether it's right is to compare it to some other source, in which case we might as well just use that other source.

[AstralFire]

Can we please not use dandwiki as a source? Yeah, it's sometimes right, but it's often wrong, and the way to tell whether it's right is to compare it to some other source, in which case we might as well just use that other source.

I'm getting increasingly annoyed that somehow danddwiki appears to have climbed above d20srd in my normal search results. :|

[Crusher]

Can we please not use dandwiki as a source? Yeah, it's sometimes right, but it's often wrong, and the way to tell whether it's right is to compare it to some other source, in which case we might as well just use that other source.

Oh, boo. Fine.

That having been said, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but looking at the weapon rules in d20srd.com, I think I see the argument Rodney is trying (without much success) to articulate.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons.

If a weapon is too big, it stops being a weapon. Weapons fall into three size categories: Light (Good off-hand weapons if you're dual-wielding. Shortswords, daggers, etc), Medium (Classic 1h weapons. Battle axe, long sword, mace, etc), and Two-handed (everyone can probably figure this one out).

If you use a weapon that's too big for you (a human using an Ogre's club, for example), it moves up a size category. A dagger is a Light weapon, but an Ogre is one size larger than a human, so a human using a dagger made for an Ogre would consider it a Medium weapon (to compensate, the dagger should have much higher base damage than a human dagger). A Hill Giant is 2 sizes larger than a human, so a human using a Hill Giant's dagger would consider it a Two-Handed weapon.

But when get to something 3 sizes larger than a human (Storm Giant? Not sure of the right example) we run into a problem. To a human trying to wield it, a Storm Giant's dagger is one size up from Two-Handed, and that size category is called "You can't wield it at all".

Rodney, I think, is trying to say that the boulder Thog is using is too big to really be used as a weapon. Its like a Hill Giant's Medium sized Rock, making it too large for a Medium-sized creature like Thog to actually use as a weapon.

While Thog might be able to drop the boulder on Roy and do damage with it, he's not really "wielding" it, per se, any more than Roy "wielded" the ceiling that fell on Thog at the end of that fight. Since Thog isn't really wielding it, it wouldn't qualify for an AoO. Even though it wasn't a weapon, Roy still didn't want to get hit by it which is why he sundered it.

Edit - I'm don't entirely agree with the argument here, but its making more sense than I originally anticipated.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm getting increasingly annoyed that somehow danddwiki appears to have climbed above d20srd in my normal search results. :|

I suspect it's because D&D Wiki

1. Has more changes/activity on it.
2. Often refers to stuff not released on the SRD.

[Crusher]

I suspect it's because D&D Wiki

1. Has more changes/activity on it.
2. Often refers to stuff not released on the SRD.

So you're saying it cheating. Just another reason not to like it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Rodney, I think, is trying to say that the boulder Thog is using is too big to really be used as a weapon. Its like a Hill Giant's Medium sized Rock, making it too large for a Medium-sized creature like Thog to actually use as a weapon.

I wish he was saying that, but he isn't. Still, that's an actual argument I can sink my teeth into. Since there is no RAW for when a boulder changes size categories, we need to fall back on the English language definition of wielding ("1. To handle (a weapon or tool, for example) with skill and ease."). Is Thog wielding it with ease? As long as he is fueled by Rage, I think he is. I think his already massive strength, once boosted, is perfectly capable of swinging that rock around - he does not seem to be straining at all.

How about "with skill"? This is a little trickier. Thog is not particularly skilled even with non-improvised weapons (Thog, after all, is elegant in his simplicity). You don't expect him to parry and swerve and have fancy footwork. Thog smashes what's in front of him until its blood makes a pretty picture, or he sees ice cream. So by Thog standards, he is probably about as skilled with that rock as he would be with a real weapon he is unfamiliar with.

So yes, maybe that rock would be too large for Roy to use as an improvised weapon, but to Thog, in the circumstances that he is when he grabs said rock, it is clear he is wielding it, not just holding it.

Grey Wolf

[RMS Oceanic]

I've added Miron Shewdanker to the list of characters. Please point out any corrections.

I know there's been discussion about what Laurin's last power in 928 is, but I'm still holding fast on what it could be until we see its effects in 929.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm still holding fast on what it could be until we see its effects in 929.

This seems to be the most reasonable course of action, indeed.

GW

[Kornaki]

It was brought up a couple pages ago and lost in the din it seems, but I don't think Belkar should have great cleave.

[zimmerwald1915]

I've added Miron Shewdanker to the list of characters. Please point out any corrections.

I know there's been discussion about what Laurin's last power in 928 is, but I'm still holding fast on what it could be until we see its effects in 929.

The p-tags wrapped around Miron's Constitution need to be closed.

[Gift Jeraff]

Would crafting the Talisman of Dorukan count as evidence that he has Craft [Epic?] Wondrous Item?

Also, I suppose the runes that ward off the monsters should go in his spell list.

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?

[Flame of Anor]

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?

I agree. And also with removing Belkar's Great Cleave.

[Fish]

I don't know RAW well enough to speculate, but using a (conservative estimate) 500-pound boulder for an AOO doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Even at a STR of 28, it's a Medium load.

From d20:

To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.

The heaviest weapon on the standard list is a Greataxe (12 lbs). What would be the weight equivalent of a huge boulder? What, wielding a catapult as an off-hand weapon?

Also consider: if Thog (or anyone really) could wield a Medium load as a normal improvised weapon, he'd get X attacks per round with it. I don't think the intent of the rules is to AOO people to death with the heaviest thing within reach instead of your purpose-built weapon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know RAW well enough to speculate, but using a (conservative estimate) 500-pound boulder for an AOO doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Even at a STR of 28, it's a Medium load.

The evidence in-comic is that said rock is not in any way slowing down Thog, so your estimation of weight is off. It's a section of masonry, so it might be bricks held together by cement and paint, lighter than an equivalent volume of solid rock. Or it might be the magical equivalent of aluminum. But the evidence is that Thog is not struggling to lift it, so it can't be 500 lbs. How we justify he can lift it is a different conversation - what I'm interested is if he is wielding it. And given the lack of effort, I am still convinced that he is.

Edit:
According to RAW:

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

This is quite unhelpful, in that wall sections are not designed for any wielder, so much of the logic can't be applied. About the only useful thing is that "a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.". Since Thog's category is medium, that gives us a maximum weight of 500 lb.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

The art is not much of a guideline, vis a vis the weight of the weapon. The question is not "is it 500 pounds?" but "is it more than 12 pounds?" The rule states, as I said, that you find a weapon of equivalent weight and use that.

By your logic, if Thog can use it as an improvised weapon, then it weighs no more than a greataxe; therefore, the boulder has damage equivalent to a greataxe. That is clearly not true either. And yet Thog did wield it. We have a paradox.

The only logical conclusion is that the art takes liberties with RAW, and little or nothing can be divined from it.

Since the whole purpose of the is-a-boulder-a-valid-weapon argument is, "Would Thog get an attack of opportunity?" we can cut to the chase: Thog is not required to take his AOO. Therefore, whether it is a weapon or no, we cannot say definitively that Thog didn't get one, only that he didn't make one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The art is not much of a guideline, vis a vis the weight of the weapon. The question is not "is it 500 pounds?" but "is it more than 12 pounds?" The rule states, as I said, that you find a weapon of equivalent weight and use that.

No, it says find a weapon of the same relative size and damage potential. For a small rock, the size and damage potential is less than that of a dagger, since it lacks equilibrium, sharpness, hardness and all the other qualities that separates a lump of metal or rock from an actual weapon. For a rock to have the same relative damage potential as a dagger, it needs to be larger and heavier. A kitchen knife need not be much bigger than a dagger to use the same damage dice, but an item with no edge does.

In the case of Thog's wall piece, as long as the amount of damage was equivalent to that of a greataxe (1d12, I believe), and of Thog's size category, then it would fall under relative same size and damage potential.

Grey Wolf

[Kornaki]

Why are we talking about sundering boulders

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html

when we can talk about sundering greataxes? Dude takes his full attack breaking that axe, the art would have supported an attack of opportunity.

[Matt620]

I've added Miron Shewdanker to the list of characters. Please point out any corrections.

I know there's been discussion about what Laurin's last power in 928 is, but I'm still holding fast on what it could be until we see its effects in 929.

In strip 925, one of Haley's arrows is deflected by something of Miron's. Do we know what that is?

[AKA_Bait]

In strip 925, one of Haley's arrows is deflected by something of Miron's. Do we know what that is?

There has been speculation that it could be a force effect (e.g., Mage Armor or Greater Mage Armor) or the shield spell. We don't have enough evidence to know for sure, I think.