Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Toper]

But the simplest explanation is that he has the relevant skill ranks.

When a character could readily have accomplished something without a feat or skill, I thought the thread generally declined to add it pending further evidence? But I mainly just pop in here to be contrary, so I could be wrong.

I don't know if its simpler, but I do think that otherwise we are going to have a doozy of a time ever deciding that someone has ranks in Spellcraft based on correctly identifying a spell.

Good! The existing evidence for characters' Spellcraft ranks is frequently kind of stupid. Durkon has them based on knowing a factoid which Malack had mentioned in his presence. Haley I guess has them based on knowing that Resurrection takes ten minutes, which doesn't even look like a possible use of the skill. The thread ought to raise its standards on this one.

Also can people fail to identify spells in this comic that have somatic components? They're saying the name of the spell, it seems like it should be trivial to identify which spell they are casting.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html

For example does this probably level 1 warrior have spellcraft?

He can hear the word "Invisibility" without even realizing that a spell is being cast, so I think you're right.

[Bird]

Technically you can't see the effects of invisibility/greater invisibility so you can't even make a spellcraft check on it

Also can people fail to identify spells in this comic that have somatic components? They're saying the name of the spell, it seems like it should be trivial to identify which spell they are casting.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html

For example does this probably level 1 warrior have spellcraft?

Well, you can "detect" the effects of greater invisibility -- like when you see Sangwaan mysteriously chucked off a wall. You can "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell."

I find it more than unlikely that Belkar actually has ranks in spellcraft and hit a DC 24 check, but there we are. It is a useful point of comparison.

[rodneyAnonymous]

"Knowing that the effects of invisibility end when you attack, but that the effects of greater invisibility do not" isn't the same as identifying the spell with Spellcraft skill ranks. I know the ranks represent that sort of knowledge, but I think it is evidence of battle-relevant knowledge, not magic-relevant knowledge, though they overlap there.

[Flame of Anor]

When a character could readily have accomplished something without a feat or skill, I thought the thread generally declined to add it pending further evidence? But I mainly just pop in here to be contrary, so I could be wrong.

I'm afraid you are wrong, because by rules as written, Elan could not have accomplished it without the relevant skill.

[Bird]

"Knowing that the effects of invisibility end when you attack, but that the effects of greater invisibility do not" isn't the same as identifying the spell with Spellcraft skill ranks. I know the ranks represent that sort of knowledge, but I think it is evidence of battle-relevant knowledge, not magic-relevant knowledge, though they overlap there.

Really, I agree with you -- if the Giant were to conjure a behind-the-scenes look at that page, I don't think it would involve a spellcraft check from Belkar.

But the thing is, if we take this argument:

Knowing that an invisible attack without de-cloak implies greater invisibility = "battle-relevant knowledge"

And compare it to this argument:

Knowing that a magical mouth implies magic mouth = "world-relevant knowledge" or "communication-relevant knowledge"

Then I'm not sure I appreciate the distinction between the two.

[Taelas]

The only way to do it by RAW would be to require Spellcraft ranks for each and every instance of people "recognizing a spell."

So I would say either do that, or don't use recognizing spells as requiring Spellcraft ranks at all.

[Cerussite]

I'm afraid you are wrong, because by rules as written, Elan could not have accomplished it without the relevant skill.

Does that mean you believe then that Belkar should have 5+ ranks in Spellcraft listed to recognize Greater Invisibility (since he has an int penalty)? I find this to be dissonant enough to Belkar's character to put some doubt to the 'recognizing a spell -> spellcraft check' necessity in the OOTS world.

[b_jonas]

That kind of knowledge is represented by skill ranks.

Skill ranks possibly, but could that also be covered by Bardic Lore skills though, or some Knowledge skills? It seems to me that those might be more useful skills for a herald than Spellcraft. If Elan recognized a type of spell that wasn't obvious from the visuals, or something like that, I would take that a sign for a Spellcraft check, but not this Magic Mouth thing.

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Meanwhile, let me repeat my request from two pages before: I'd like to ask the thread maintainer to add Haley's two big gemstones.

[Toper]

I'm afraid you are wrong, because by rules as written, Elan could not have accomplished it without the relevant skill.

A Spellcraft check may be the only way in the rules to recognize a spell effect. Similarly, Modify Memory may be the only way in the rules to recall an event you experienced. But the existence of mechanics to improve memory or recognition doesn't imply that characters are otherwise incapable of these basic mental functions. Anyone can recognize an obvious spell effect or remember a past event; there's no reason to assume every time that they're using Spellcraft or Modify Memory to do so with perfect precision.

[Antipode]

When disarming the Draketeeth door, Haley picked up that the runes she was messing with did things like Stoneskin, Haste, and Meteor Swarm - all by name. I don't know if it's a Rogue ability to be able to tell exactly the spells involved in the magical traps you're dealing with, but a Spellcraft roll that'd get her to deduce a level 9 spell like Meteor Swarm otherwise seems like it puts this issue fairly to rest. I doubt every single character in that party has Spellcraft, after all.

[Flame of Anor]

When disarming the Draketeeth door, Haley picked up that the runes she was messing with did things like Stoneskin, Haste, and Meteor Swarm - all by name. I don't know if it's a Rogue ability to be able to tell exactly the spells involved in the magical traps you're dealing with, but a Spellcraft roll that'd get her to deduce a level 9 spell like Meteor Swarm otherwise seems like it puts this issue fairly to rest. I doubt every single character in that party has Spellcraft, after all.

I'm not sure the rules cover that, though, since the spells aren't technically in effect.

[Cerussite]

I'm not sure the rules cover that, though, since the spells aren't technically in effect.

DC 20 + spell level, Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic. One try per day. Requires a full-round action.

Annoyingly, this proves nothing, though, because the DC for Meteor Swarm is 29, and Haley, at level 15, could conveniently have 9 ranks in Spellcraft (15 + 3 / 2). And roll a nat twenty.

[Kurald Galain]

Interestingly, comic 221 says outright that Miko doesn't understand V's trick with explosive runes because she doesn't have Spellcraft, and then goes on to show that Belkar does understand V's trick. That suggests that Belkar does, in fact, have spellcraft.

[hamishspence]

I figured it was just Belkar paying close attention, for once, to what Roy and V were saying:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html

specifically "It is not acceptable to cast Explosive Runes on a fellow party member".

[halfeye]

I figured it was just Belkar paying close attention, for once, to what Roy and V were saying:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html

specifically "It is not acceptable to cast Explosive Runes on a fellow party member".

Wait a minute:

Roy has levels in spellcrafting, are you sure? I thought he was convinced that fighters are better than wizards?

[hamishspence]

Technically, noncasters can take ranks in the Spellcraft skill.

[b_jonas]

Now as for recognizing spells, in #183, Belkar Roy deduces that Varsaavius has hypnotized the black dragon. Does that mean he has ranks in Spellcraft? Or does that not count because he doesn't say the name of the spell?

Update: argh, I was misreading the strip, it was Roy, not Belkar, sorry. That makes much more sense. Thank you, JustWantedToSay.

[JustWantedToSay]

Now as for recognizing spells, in #183, Belkar deduces that Varsaavius has hypnotized the black dragon. Does that mean he has ranks in Spellcraft? Or does that not count because he doesn't say the name of the spell?

That was Roy.

[Living Oxymoron]

Wait a minute:

Roy has levels in spellcrafting, are you sure? I thought he was convinced that fighters are better than wizards?

He has ranks in the Spellcraft skill, not "levels". I don't know where he states that Fighters are better than Wizards, but that doesn't change the fact that he was raised by a Wizard, and probably because of this he has ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana).

[Reddish Mage]

Does that mean you believe then that Belkar should have 5+ ranks in Spellcraft listed to recognize Greater Invisibility (since he has an int penalty)? I find this to be dissonant enough to Belkar's character to put some doubt to the 'recognizing a spell -> spellcraft check' necessity in the OOTS world.

I can't see how we can expect the Giant to stick to such a rule consistently. How often do characters sport player knowledge in a game session, add to that the characters of Stickverse seem to be knowledgable about game mechanics in general.

[Bird]

He has ranks in the Spellcraft skill, not "levels". I don't know where he states that Fighters are better than Wizards, but that doesn't change the fact that he was raised by a Wizard, and probably because of this he has ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana).

There was that bit in Origin where Roy gave a highly technical description of a fireball to Vaarsuvius. While choosing Fighter College over being a caster is a big part of Roy's character, he knows that, as a tactition, it's important to know something about magic.

[halfeye]

He has ranks in the Spellcraft skill, not "levels". I don't know where he states that Fighters are better than Wizards, but that doesn't change the fact that he was raised by a Wizard, and probably because of this he has ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana).

Alright, I don't know D&D, I don't understand the distinction there.

I've been playing fantasy games on computers since "The Valley" on 8 bit:

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/fraser.ch...ley_index.html

I've never played D&D.

[Bird]

Alright, I don't know D&D, I don't understand the distinction there.

I've been playing fantasy games on computers since "The Valley" on 8 bit:

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/fraser.ch...ley_index.html

I've never played D&D.

When you gain enough experience, you get a new "level" in a given class (fighter, wizard, bard, rogue, whatever). This comes with many benefits, one of which is new skill points.

You use your new skill points to purchase extra "ranks" in various skills (spellcraft, climb, knowledge: nature, bluff, etc). Even if you're gaining a level in a fighting-oriented class like "fighter," you can purchase ranks in Spellcraft -- though there's a penalty for doing so.

[Cerussite]

I can't see how we can expect the Giant to stick to such a rule consistently. How often do characters sport player knowledge in a game session, add to that the characters of Stickverse seem to be knowledgable about game mechanics in general.

Fully agreed. It's one of these things that isn't really enforced in any of the gaming groups I've been in. If the sorcerer by your side shouts "FIREBALL!" and throws a fireball on a group of goblins, it's very unlikely that the party is going to be confused more than exactly once.

[halfeye]

When you gain enough experience, you get a new "level" in a given class (fighter, wizard, bard, rogue, whatever). This comes with many benefits, one of which is new skill points.

You use your new skill points to purchase extra "ranks" in various skills (spellcraft, climb, knowledge: nature, bluff, etc). Even if you're gaining a level in a fighting-oriented class like "fighter," you can purchase ranks in Spellcraft -- though there's a penalty for doing so.

As I said, I've played fantasy games on computers since the 8bit days. There are plenty of systems sort of like that, but they're all at least a little bit different. That sounds most like Deus Ex, but there will still be differences.

[Taelas]

Perhaps more importantly, Spellcraft simply denotes knowledge of spells and magic in general; it does not, for example, allow you to actually cast spells.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know where he states that Fighters are better than Wizards, but that doesn't change the fact that he was raised by a Wizard, and probably because of this he has ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana).

He puts that sentiment in the mouths of his fans in the microcosm.

[Doug Lampert]

The Spellcasting Harrier feat allows an attack of opportunity, while Roy's feat seems to use up his turn.

Edit: Come to think of it, what we've seen Roy do has been no different than if he simply readied an attack with the trigger "when my enemy starts casting a spell." This is explicitly allowed by the SRD, and requires the caster to pass a Concentration check of DC 10 + [damage taken] + [spell level] to complete the spell. So his feat might be something as simple as increasing the DC of that check.

If you walk up to a caster with a greatsword and don't attack, then they 5' step away from you and point and laugh prior to blowing you away with a spell that you can't do anything about. You have in fact accomplished NOTHING other than to waste your turn. A feat that allows you to step after the retreating foe (for example) or otherwise prevent this is absolutely required for this sort of thing to work.

If you have a reach weapon but don't trip then they can still move away, accept one opportunity attack (which will do nothing more effective than what you'd have done if you'd simply attacked), and then cast without any chance of disruption.

If you have a reach weapon and do trip then it STILL doesn't work without a feat since the ready has to be to trip, and once that and any followup are resolved you've got nothing left to stop them from casting defensively from the ground.

Ready to disrupt works effectively ONLY with ranged weapons or a special enabling feat like Step Up (Pathfinder).

[Shale]

Oh, you can't ready the movement + attack? Okay then.

I still don't think it looks like an attack of opportunity, but if that's the case it's not a standard readied action either.

(To be clear, if it was an attack of opportunity, Roy would hit Xykon twice a round in the dream, because he wouldn't need to ready a move action to get within AOO range)

[Kornaki]

I'm starting to wonder if in OOTS spellcasters even can take a five foot step back before casting. Have we ever seen anyone do it? There have been examples where it would be advantageous to do if they were so capable without the five foot step occurring I think.

At any rate, from Horace's description here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html

in the first panel it sounds a lot like Roy gets to move at least five feet (possibly more) when a spellcaster casts a spell in order to disrupt them.

In 928,
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html

if Roy was just charging Miron then Miron would not be able to get interrupted like that, which means that Roy's movement either occurs during his turn (in which case Miron is a fool for casting next to Roy without taking a five foot step back, or is not allowed to by an OOTS houserule), or Roy's whole movement is part of his attack of opportunity against Miron (which would be very powerful and not an existing feat of course).