Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Kornaki]

I think Tarquin has Quick Draw, Combat Brute, and can make four attacks in a round. They exit the portal and he attacks Haley, then moves and attacks Elan, drawing an attack of opportunity from Haley. He sheathes his dagger, does his arm breaking move on Haley, then draws his dagger and uses what looks like the Combat Brute ability that lets you sunder and attack through your sunder to hit your enemy.

I'm unclear how he moves past Haley during his full attack (maybe a Tome of Battle maneuver to grant you some movement as an immediate action), but Elan does nothing and Haley only takes one attack so it's unlikely that they got to take their turns in the middle.

Alternatively he got a surprise round standard action, used it on Haley, then won initiative and on his turn moved past Haley drawing an attack of opportunity (which she shouldn't be allowed to as she would be flat-footed technically but the Giant might have ran it like this anyway) and then made his full attack (again using some other ability to get some movement)

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think Tarquin has Quick Draw, Combat Brute, and can make four attacks in a round. They exit the portal and he attacks Haley, then moves and attacks Elan, drawing an attack of opportunity from Haley. He sheathes his dagger, does his arm breaking move on Haley, then draws his dagger and uses what looks like the Combat Brute ability that lets you sunder and attack through your sunder to hit your enemy.

I'm unclear how he moves past Haley during his full attack (maybe a Tome of Battle maneuver to grant you some movement as an immediate action), but Elan does nothing and Haley only takes one attack so it's unlikely that they got to take their turns in the middle.

Alternatively he got a surprise round standard action, used it on Haley, then won initiative and on his turn moved past Haley drawing an attack of opportunity (which she shouldn't be allowed to as she would be flat-footed technically but the Giant might have ran it like this anyway) and then made his full attack (again using some other ability to get some movement)

Haley could have simply attacked on her turn. She was flanking with Elan, she doesn't need anything special beyond that for a Sneak Attack. As far as I know, the only way to move during a Full-Attack is via a 5 ft. step. Which means A) Haley couldn't get an AoO and B) that the entire sequence could be a full attack... if he traveled less than 5 ft. I can accept the attack on Haley didn't require movement, since it was through the portal which was immediately behind Haley (IE: adjacent). However, he had to then move beyond Haley to Elan, which requires 10 feet (5 for Haley, and then 5 more for the space between), so that requires a move action.

The action sequence is:
Laurin used Wormhole (Standard Action)
Tarquin attacks Haley (Attack Action, likely surprise round)
Elan draws Rapier (Move Action, off panel)
Tarquin moves to Elan (Move Action, off panel)
Tarquin attacks Elan (Attack Action, likely Standard)
Haley stands up (Move) and SA Tarquin (Standard action)
Tarquin breaks Haley's Arm (At least an Attack Action, likely Standard) His dagger is in hammerspace during this action
Tarquin Sunder/Damages Elan's Rapier/Elan in one action (At least an Attack Action, likely Standard).
V use Hand Spell (Standard)

EDIT: And Elan didn't do anything during this sequence of round(s) because he didn't want to fight Tarquin. He only was willing to attack after Tarquin broke Haley's arm.

[Kornaki]

Haley could have simply attacked on her turn. She was flanking with Elan, she doesn't need anything special beyond that for a Sneak Attack. As far as I know, the only way to move during a Full-Attack is via a 5 ft. step. Which means A) Haley couldn't get an AoO and B) that the entire sequence could be a full attack... if he traveled less than 5 ft. I can accept the attack on Haley didn't require movement, since it was through the portal which was immediately behind Haley (IE: adjacent). However, he had to then move beyond Haley to Elan, which requires 10 feet (5 for Haley, and then 5 more for the space between), so that requires a move action.

Then, Haley gets her Sneak Attack in, Tarquin does the arm breaking, and finally Tarquin does his Sunder+Damaging thing. These all can be independent rounds, especially with how much dialogue occurs between combat actions.

The problem is that Tarquin attacks Haley, then moves and attacks Elan (taking at least two rounds of combat), then Haley attacks Tarquin, then Tarquin attacks Haley (this is his third round of combat), then Tarquin attacks Elan presumably in the same round, but Elan never gets around to doing anything beyond drawing his rapier even though Tarquin has taken three turns.

If we can just assume that Elan is passing all his rounds even though this is the arc where he's supposed to be actually doing stuff, then we can never tell whether people are gaining extra attacks from BAB or cleave, or if everyone is just passing so other people can make multiple attacks.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Check panel 4 of the full comic page if comic 934. Elan was not willing to fit Tarquin till after he broke Haley's arm. I apologize i posted prematurely and have since edited my post above.

[Kornaki]

Check panel 4 of the full comic page if comic 934. Elan was not willing to fit Tarquin till after he broke Haley's arm. I apologize i posted prematurely and have since edited my post above.

I assume you mean panel 4 of page 2 (as panel 4 of page 1 doesn't say anything on the topic). It is a huge stretch to read that as him deciding to enter combat; instead he was just saying that he will stop trying to pull tricks to get out of fighting Tarquin in exchange for Haley's safety.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I assume you mean panel 4 of page 2 (as panel 4 of page 1 doesn't say anything on the topic). It is a huge stretch to read that as him deciding to enter combat; instead he was just saying that he will stop trying to pull tricks to get out of fighting Tarquin in exchange for Haley's safety.

Full comic, as in the full comic page, versus the half page at the beginning. Elan has not crossed swords with Tarquin since their duel on the roof and has been pretty adamant about not doing so again. Haley, however, doesn't seem to share this sentiment. I don't think its a stretch for Elan to be hesitate to fight Tarquin prior to the arm breaking. He knows he's not as skilled as Tarquin and he knows his goals require him not meeting Tarquin on his own terms. Engaging in melee with him is probably the second worst position for Elan to be in (only after meeting Tarquin under the condition Tarquin's Narrative described).

[b_jonas]

The problem is that Tarquin attacks Haley, then moves and attacks Elan (taking at least two rounds of combat), then Haley attacks Tarquin, then Tarquin attacks Haley (this is his third round of combat), then Tarquin attacks Elan presumably in the same round, but Elan never gets around to doing anything beyond drawing his rapier even though Tarquin has taken three turns.

Isn't it possible that Tarquin broke Haley's arm in her turn because he's got an attack of opportunity after Haley has attacked her? Or something like that?

Update: probably not. The sequence of the attacks doesn't seem to work right for that.

[Fish]

Nice catch.

I'm not so sure. Team Tarquin has 6 members; the Giant said "he takes five evil people." It's unclear whether that number 5 includes or excludes Tarquin himself.

[EugeneVoid]

Can one sunder limbs?

[Flame of Anor]

Can one sunder limbs?

Against some creatures, yes, but not (by RAW) against humans.

[Shale]

I'm not so sure. Team Tarquin has 6 members; the Giant said "he takes five evil people." It's unclear whether that number 5 includes or excludes Tarquin himself.

I assume it's five not including him, because he doesn't have to teach himself how stories work.

[RickDaily12]

Oh. My. God. ....Guys.

We can't infer anything about Tarquin with his sundering of Elan's rapier, at least, not on his strength value based on the durability of the rapier. Not when we have this. Damn it, Giant. You clever... you knew all along we'd try to infer something about this...!

So, this means until we have proof positive that the rapier he just sundered was the +3 one, we must assume Elan could possibly have that particular one stashed away somewhere... and Tarquin may have just sundered a regular rapier, and clieved his way to Elan's face.


P.S. I'm still saying Laurin must be minimum level 16 as per Wormhole's spell level at this point. I think the evidence needed for that much as been established.

[Kornaki]

You clever... you knew all along we'd try to infer something about this...!

I find that unlikely actually.

[Bird]

I'm not so sure. Team Tarquin has 6 members; the Giant said "he takes five evil people." It's unclear whether that number 5 includes or excludes Tarquin himself.

I think it's good to assume that the Giant isn't playing sneaky word games when he posts. He wants to be understood. He said that Tarquin "takes five evil people," not that he "takes five evil people and a neutral one." Quite reasonable to infer that Tarquin isn't "taking" himself, and that that all the members are therefore evil, in my opinion.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Oh. My. God. ....Guys.

We can't infer anything about Tarquin with his sundering of Elan's rapier, at least, not on his strength value based on the durability of the rapier. Not when we have this. Damn it, Giant. You clever... you knew all along we'd try to infer something about this...!

So, this means until we have proof positive that the rapier he just sundered was the +3 one, we must assume Elan could possibly have that particular one stashed away somewhere... and Tarquin may have just sundered a regular rapier, and clieved his way to Elan's face.


P.S. I'm still saying Laurin must be minimum level 16 as per Wormhole's spell level at this point. I think the evidence needed for that much as been established.

The +3 Rapier is Silvered, which in-comic is a single grey line, versus the single black line his old Rapier was. I'll be back with comic pages for reference.

Wow I forgot how infrequently Elan used his Rapier prior to meeting Julio. The only page I could find was the page it was introduced.

[Megsie]

The +3 Keen rapier that Elan got from Julio was originally a black line as well.

Edit: The rapier in #17 isn't the other rapier Elan carries. The other rapier he has is the one Haley looted for him in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[RickDaily12]

Umm. About the color scheme.

Both rapiers both appeared as black once. Both also appear grey later.

That is, of course, assuming only that Rich has had both pulled out this story arc, which, he implied he has done.

So, we're back at not being able to assume, well, anything.

[Living Oxymoron]

That she can cast level 8 spells? It is certain; she has cast Bugsby's crushing hand and power word stun on panel. Mind blank specifically? She used it during the splice, but since she didn't have level 8 spells at that point it's definitely one of the splices', and there's nothing to suggest she has it in her own spellbook.

Clenched Fist. Crushing Hand is level 9.

[zimmerwald1915]

Clenched Fist. Crushing Hand is level 9.

My mistake, thanks.

[Living Oxymoron]

About the Mind Blank, I don't believe that V has this spell prepared either. It's one of the best spells to prepare, along with True Seeing, when it's known they would face a clan of illusionists. But that spell has a duration of 24 hours; it's a kind of spell that he should cast in the beginning of the day, like what he does with Overland Flight, rather than wait for the "right time" to cast and risk being surprised.

Another thing that can be argued is that a 15 level Wizard learns only two spells of 8th level. Sure, there is no limits to how many spells a Wizard can learn, and he could have bought some in that shop, but the circumstances that I exposed above make this a bit unlikely to happen, IMO.

[SaintRidley]

Isn't it possible that Tarquin broke Haley's arm in her turn because he's got an attack of opportunity after Haley has attacked her? Or something like that?

Update: probably not. The sequence of the attacks doesn't seem to work right for that.

Could be that he did, and the sequence is made this way to be more visually satisfying. The AoO would be for her getting up from prone before sneak attacking.

[Flame of Anor]

I don't think we can conclude anything at all about the sundering damage yet. Feats and such that Tarquin needs to make the attempt or whatever, sure. But not damage, because remember when Belkar sundered Elan's other rapier by shouting? Clearly the standard sunder damage rules are not in effect, especially as regards Elan's rapiers.

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't think we can conclude anything at all about the sundering damage yet. Feats and such that Tarquin needs to make the attempt or whatever, sure. But not damage, because remember when Belkar sundered Elan's other rapier by shouting? Clearly the standard sunder damage rules are not in effect, especially as regards Elan's rapiers.

I think you're right. After all, Rich said that dagger deals 1d4+Plot damage.

If nobody objects, I will peg Laurin and Miron as Evil, and give Tarquin Improved Sunder and Improved Grapple for breaking Haley's arm.

[Quartz]

If nobody objects, I will peg Laurin and Miron as Evil, and give Tarquin Improved Sunder and Improved Grapple for breaking Haley's arm.

The damage to Haley's arm seems to me as possibly SFX of a Crippling Strike.

[Kornaki]

As far as Tarquin tripping Haley as he exits the portal, he might have the Knockdown feat. It seems like it would be his style anyway.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html

Knockdown on Roy!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html

Knockdown on Roy again!

Also if that was a crippling strike you need to explain how Tarquin got a sneak attack. Laurin is flanking but not armed so that doesn't give Tarquin flanking/sneak attack actually.

[OPM]

I've been wondering about all the PP used for wormholes and how it doesn't appear to concern them in the slightest. There's no chance of this being from some obscure magic item, is there? Or even just something that reduces what should be a rather high PP cost from all that spamming? Seems odd to spam it so freely, that's all.

[illyahr]

I took a look at the rules for breaking something through sheer Strength. According to the SRD, it takes a Str check DC 26 to break an iron chain. Haley's arm probably wouldn't be too much of an issue and doesn't need any additional feats.

[orrion]

I've been wondering about all the PP used for wormholes and how it doesn't appear to concern them in the slightest. There's no chance of this being from some obscure magic item, is there? Or even just something that reduces what should be a rather high PP cost from all that spamming? Seems odd to spam it so freely, that's all.

Even if it were a 9th level power and cost 17 per use and we assume Laurin to be like level 18 (she's probably higher) then she would have 280 power points before her Intellect bonus. If she's level 20 then she would have 343 power points before her Intellect bonus.

In other words, she probably has at least 100 more PP to play with, and possibly more.

[Living Oxymoron]

I took a look at the rules for breaking something through sheer Strength. According to the SRD, it takes a Str check DC 26 to break an iron chain. Haley's arm probably wouldn't be too much of an issue and doesn't need any additional feats.

Are you sure that breaking an arm is only a matter of strength? Are you sure that there is no technique involved in such action?

[Nahmer]

With regards to Wormhole, have we considered the possibility that it might have augmentation options for reducing its cost? In Complete Psionic, Psionic Dimension Door was updated with several options for reducing its power point cost, such as spending 2 points less to increase the manifesting time to a full-round action and spending 2 points less to reduce the range (Complete Psionic is not open content so the update can't be included on the d20srd site).

In other words, Wormhole can still be a 9th level power, but Laurin has been frequently been saving power points by manifesting it as a full-round action with reduced range.