Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Kornaki]

It's a waste of time to debate the various levels and augmentations that wormhole might have. We'll never know the answer and this thread doesn't run on speculation. Especially if you're asking which of two augmentations styles it might have, knowing that the two versions are literally indistinguishable in every way except for the level number next to the power in the rulebook.

[ReaderAt2046]

Are you sure that breaking an arm is only a matter of strength? Are you sure that there is no technique involved in such action?

I suspect that anyone can attempt it, but it would provoke an AoO, and it does have a fairly hefty Strength DC for someone without boosts of some sort.

[illyahr]

I suspect that anyone can attempt it, but it would provoke an AoO, and it does have a fairly hefty Strength DC for someone without boosts of some sort.

Iron chain is a DC 26 so I would guess bone would be ~21 or so. With Improved Grapple (which he has) and an epic-level Strength score (which we suspect, but no actual proof) it wouldn't be too difficult.

[ReaderAt2046]

Iron chain is a DC 26 so I would guess bone would be ~21 or so. With Improved Grapple (which he has) and an epic-level Strength score (which we suspect, but no actual proof) it wouldn't be too difficult.

When I said "boosts of some sort", I was including stat-boosting items and the ability boosts characters get. Basically, my point is that this would be really hard for someone capped at 18 STR, like real people.

[halfeye]

Basically, my point is that this would be really hard for someone capped at 18 STR, like real people.

For real people, you'd have to hit them, not wrestle them, unless you got all of their weight acting on one bone at a really bad angle, which in the panel Tarquin doesn't.

[illyahr]

When I said "boosts of some sort", I was including stat-boosting items and the ability boosts characters get. Basically, my point is that this would be really hard for someone capped at 18 STR, like real people.

Ah, I understand now. Assuming DC 21, the average man capped at STR 18 would only be able to do it on a roll of 17 or better. My initial point was that it didn't require any particular skills or feats, just a high enough Strength modifier.

Tarquin doesn't seem to be straining himself when he breaks Haley's arm, he seem to do it off-handedly (sorry ). STR higher than 18? Probably. Unfortunately, the DC to break bone isn't listed so it would be up to DM fiat which means we still don't have anything more on Tarquin's Strength score. Between the rules on breaking and in-comic ease that he breaks an arm, I would point to this as support of having 18+ Str.

What are everyone's thoughts?

[Codyage]

Has anyone brought up the Variant for specific Damage from the DMG?

Sorry if it has been brought up. Spoilered for convenience.

Spoiler

Show

Pg. 27 DMG

VARIANT: DAMAGE TO SPECIFIC AREAS
Sometimes, despite the abstract nature of combat, you’re going to
want to apply damage to specific parts of the body, such as when a
character’s hands are thrust into flames, when he steps on caltrops, or
when he peeks through a hole in the wall and someone shoots an
arrow into the hole from the other side. (This situation comes up most
frequently with devious traps meant to chop at feet, smash fingers, or
the like.)
When a specific body part takes damage, you can apply a –2
penalty to any action that the character undertakes using that
portion of his body. For example, if a character’s fingers get slashed,
he makes attacks rolls with a weapon in that hand at –2 and he takes
a –2 penalty on skill checks involving the use of his hands. If a character
steps on a caltrop, he takes a –2 penalty on skill checks involving
the use of his feet (in addition to the effects described in the
Player’s Handbook).
Chapter 8 of this book defines some effects of damage to specific
body parts, such as what happens when a character is blinded or deafened.
In addition to that information, use the table below as a guide to
what rolls are modified by injuries to what body parts.
This penalty lasts until the character heals, either magically or by
resting. For a minor wound, such as stepping on a caltrop, a DC 15
Heal check, 1 point of magical healing, or a day of rest removes the
penalties.
You can allow a character to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 +
damage taken) to “tough it out” and ignore the penalty. Also, these
penalties shouldn’t stack—two hand injuries should not impose a
–4 penalty.

From the accompanying table.

Arm: Climb and Swim checks; attack rolls; Strength checks.

[RickDaily12]

Roy has fewer than 150 hitpoints.

Seems like he would have significantly more than 47 though (kind of obvious, but...) since Durkon avoided CCW.

If he weren't a fighter, we could infer quite a bit about his CON score. =/

[Living Oxymoron]

Roy has fewer than 150 hitpoints.

Seems like he would have significantly more than 47 though (kind of obvious, but...) since Durkon avoided CCW.

If he weren't a fighter, we could infer quite a bit about his CON score. =/

Actually, he has less than 140 HP, if we take into account that Durkon is a 14 level cleric.

[orrion]

Roy has fewer than 150 hitpoints.

Seems like he would have significantly more than 47 though (kind of obvious, but...) since Durkon avoided CCW.

If he weren't a fighter, we could infer quite a bit about his CON score. =/

How does that show Roy having fewer than 150 hit points? Are you assuming he was healed to full from the Heal spell? That is plausible, but not certain. Damage doesn't always leave visible wounds, especially from spells. For instance, V hits Miko with a Scorching Ray here, and she doesn't show any additional damage.

[RickDaily12]

Ah, right- I forgot that Durkon only gets the +1 level boost to good spells. He'd get a +1 level boost to Healing spells if he had the Healing Domain, which he does not.

How does that show Roy having fewer than 150 hit points? Are you assuming he was healed to full from the Heal spell? That is plausible, but not certain. Damage doesn't always leave visible wounds, especially from spells. For instance, V hits Miko with a Scorching Ray here, and she doesn't show any additional damage.

One, that was a comic shown several years ago and several hundred strips.

Then, we have here, here, here, here, here... cases where damage was spell-based, others not. And I'm sure I can continue to dig up more and more examples. The point is, we see healing to what we infer as full hitpoint totals.

And then we also have instances of people whom surely have fewer hitpoints than Roy, spell damage or no spell damage, are visibly healed at their maximum hitpoints. We have even just seen an instance of a character inferring max hitpoints based on pure sight.

So..... Heal as a spell seems pretty decisive. I can think of no instance where we have seen only a partial healing of the character's HP total in where we know for certain that they were not fully healed. As in, there were never any remaining visible wounds after the casting, which applies in the case of both living and undead creatures.

[Living Oxymoron]

How does that show Roy having fewer than 150 hit points? Are you assuming he was healed to full from the Heal spell? That is plausible, but not certain. Damage doesn't always leave visible wounds, especially from spells. For instance, V hits Miko with a Scorching Ray here, and she doesn't show any additional damage.

While I really think that Roy has more than 140 HP (especially because of the recent events), I must say that this example you used is not very convincing. V hits Miko in her back. The wounds should be there, but she keeps facing us the whole time, and we can't see them.

[CaDzilla]

We have enough facts about Jacinda to at least determine her race, class, and possessions

Also, should we make a placeholder for shoulder-pad guy? We have enough knowledge of his possessions and race.

And does Tarquin really have infinite deflection? If that's the case, he would have blocked all of the arrows rather than catching only two

[Doctor Awkward]

We have enough facts about Jacinda to at least determine her race, class, and possessions

Also, should we make a placeholder for shoulder-pad guy? We have enough knowledge of his possessions and race.

And does Tarquin really have infinite deflection? If that's the case, he would have blocked all of the arrows rather than catching only two

Deflect Arrows only allows you to stop one ranged attack per round.
That Tarquin stopped any number higher than one shows he has Infinite Deflection, unless you know of another non-epic Deflect Arrows related feat.

[CaDzilla]

Deflect Arrows only allows you to stop one ranged attack per round.
That Tarquin stopped any number higher than one shows he has Infinite Deflection, unless you know of another non-epic Deflect Arrows related feat.

Snatch arrows. Knowing that Tarquin wanted to make that encounter drive home the futility of the Order's resistance, he would have used that technique to deflect/catch ALL of the arrows. It would establish invulnerability towards the order. What's more badass: catching two arrows while the rest hit your teammates, or deflecting all arrows being thrown at you like you're Neo?

[Chronos]

Snatch Arrows has the same limitation as Deflect Arrows. It still wouldn't let him do it twice.

[CaDzilla]

Because this comic always follows the rules of D&D!

[Shale]

This topic does. Otherwise the top posts would just say "it's all homebrew."

Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Deflect Arrows only works on arrows that will hit you unless you deflect them. The arrows Tarquin didn't deflect didn't hit him, which means they weren't going to hit him, which means he couldn't have deflected them.

[CaDzilla]

Can we label Miron as a sorcerer? If he's a wizard, then he wouldn't have to worry about money. He could just plane shift to the elemental plane of earth and pull out a diamond the size of a watermelon. We also know that if he was a wizard, he would not have conjuration as a barred school or else he wouldn't be able to craft a contingent teleport.

[Rakoa]

Can we label Miron as a sorcerer? If he's a wizard, then he wouldn't have to worry about money. He could just plane shift to the elemental plane of earth and pull out a diamond the size of a watermelon. We also know that if he was a wizard, he would not have conjuration as a barred school or else he wouldn't be able to craft a contingent teleport.

What's to stop a sorcerer from plane shifting?

[CaDzilla]

What's to stop a sorcerer from plane shifting?

Not instinctively knowing plane shift.

[Kornaki]

Can we label Miron as a sorcerer? If he's a wizard, then he wouldn't have to worry about money. He could just plane shift to the elemental plane of earth and pull out a diamond the size of a watermelon. We also know that if he was a wizard, he would not have conjuration as a barred school or else he wouldn't be able to craft a contingent teleport.

And yet Zz'dtri had plane shift and continued working for Nale because "the pay's good." Assuming everyone makes optimal choices is incorrect for this comic.

He could even have plane shift and just not have the coordinates for the plane of earth.

[Taelas]

We don't know that Zz'dtri worked for Nale because "the pay' good". He was offering an incentive for Durkon to join, not stating the reason why he was Nale's employee himself. Besides, the trick might not even have occurred to him.

There are better reasons to label Miron a sorcerer, though, but even they are not concrete enough to be certain. (His laidback attitude is indicative of high Cha, and his speech patterns are not indicative of high Int.)

So not using plane shift for picking up diamonds the size of ostrich eggs isn't really a disqualifier.

[CaDzilla]

So not using plane shift for picking up diamonds the size of ostrich eggs isn't really a disqualifier.

But in this uni Miron's key character trait is greed. If he wanted money, he could easily just plane shift to the elemental plane of platinum and break off a chunk of the ground.

[orrion]

But in this uni Miron's key character trait is greed. If he wanted money, he could easily just plane shift to the elemental plane of platinum and break off a chunk of the ground.

The trait of greed doesn't go away just because you have the means to get rich.

[CaDzilla]

The trait of greed doesn't go away just because you have the means to get rich.

What would you rather do? Live in the desert for 35 years, constantly surviving several wars every 2 or 3 years, hoping to get profit, or sell a bunch of platinum every week and definitely make a profit.

[Megsie]

Magically increasing his wealth and participating in the three empires scheme are not mutually exclusive. Having money doesn't mean he doesn't want more money, and he could have additional alternative motivations for participating in the scheme - just like every participant whose motives we know.

[Living Oxymoron]

But in this uni Miron's key character trait is greed. If he wanted money, he could easily just plane shift to the elemental plane of platinum and break off a chunk of the ground.

Allow me to answer with your own quote...

Because this comic always follows the rules of D&D!

...and to expand it to:

Because this comic always takes advantage of every cheesy breach that D&D has!

[CaDzilla]

Except Rich has said that if a wizard of V's level wanted money, he would shift to the elemental plane of earth to grab a big diamond
Last Sentence

[BaronOfHell]

Greed isn't always logical.

Look at stores. You can spend an hour to save a few pounds, when you could have earned a lot more in the same time period. Logically it doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe Miron simply enjoys it this way?