Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Reddish Mage]

There was that bit in Origin where Roy gave a highly technical description of a fireball to Vaarsuvius. While choosing Fighter College over being a caster is a big part of Roy's character, he knows that, as a tactition, it's important to know something about magic.

Fully agreed. It's one of these things that isn't really enforced in any of the gaming groups I've been in. If the sorcerer by your side shouts "FIREBALL!" and throws a fireball on a group of goblins, it's very unlikely that the party is going to be confused more than exactly once.

I think this represents the hurdle at which we can say the character actually has points in spellcraft or a related knowledge skill. Anyone with a passing knowledge of D&D would know about fireballs, however, if you demonstrate highly technical information about a subject that even few players would know that is evidence the character actually has ranks in the skill.

[Kornaki]

Is Laurin using dimension door to get out of the forcecage?

EDIT: Never mind we already knew she had that. I guess the real question is what power did Laurin use to get off the boat, as it wasn't wormhole and probably not dimension door.

[Living Oxymoron]

Is Laurin using dimension door to get out of the forcecage?

EDIT: Never mind we already knew she had that. I guess the real question is what power did Laurin use to get off the boat, as it wasn't wormhole and probably not dimension door.

It's too early to know that. We'll learn it soon.

[GregTD]

Ah crud!

V has cast 19 spells since waking up to the battle in the desert.

Which leaves 44 -19 = 25.

Think the IFCC gave V a fresh set of spells? Because that leaves a perfect amount.

Edit: Wait, Illven is right. That makes 46.

I'm going to gloat and happy dance, and say i was right when I postulated that in addition to getting back all hit points, V got back all spell slots, filled, when she came back from Hell.

[Flame of Anor]

Cantrips are 0th-level arcane spells. Orisons are zeroth-level divine spells. Basically, they're magic so weak that you can't even call them "spells" anymore.

Now, now, they can be really useful in certain situations.

[RMS Oceanic]

Is Laurin using dimension door to get out of the forcecage?

EDIT: Never mind we already knew she had that. I guess the real question is what power did Laurin use to get off the boat, as it wasn't wormhole and probably not dimension door.

It could be Dimension Door. It depends on how high up the Mechane is. At Laurin's minimum level she could move up to 920 feet with it, so if the Mechane is lower than that it would be enough to reach the ground.

[Codyage]

I'm going to gloat and happy dance, and say i was right when I postulated that in addition to getting back all hit points, V got back all spell slots, filled, when she came back from Hell.

We disproved this a bit later. Sorry about that.

[GregTD]

We disproved this a bit later. Sorry about that.

Where? And what did you disprove? I thought I read everything.

[Codyage]

Where? And what did you disprove? I thought I read everything.

Just after my post, Illven shows that the math was wrong on how many spells V has in a day. Going from 44 to 46.

44 - 25 left over makes 19. The exact amount cast which proves the IFCC theory correct.

However, 46(The correct amount) - 25 is 21 cast. Which didn't match up with the number of spells V casted at the moment.

Zimmerwald, and RickDaily then did the math, and the error was, V is now level 16, instead of 15. With all the bonus spells and the like for leveling up. So, instead of V getting refreshed by the IFCC, the math shows V leveling up, is the only scenario right now that can fit the number of spells cast.

[Quartz]

Is there an argument that V is 17th level and has a Mass Spell metamagic feat?

He cast a lot of Mass X spells in the fight for Azure City, and the Mass X metamagic feat seems to be +4 levels. +4 levels on Overland Flight would mean it was a 9th level spell which would mean that V is 17th level. Why not use a genuine 9th level spell? Because he doesn't have one.

Or is there a Feat or item which allows you to reduce the metamagic uplift by 1 to make it an 8th level spell?

[tyckspoon]

Is there an argument that V is 17th level and has a Mass Spell metamagic feat?

No, considering there is no official Mass Spell metamagic feat (the closest I know of is Chain Spell, which works notably differently, and the rather questionable Dragon Magazine-sourced War Spells), and all the 'Mass whatsits' V cast are known Player's Handbook standard spells. It'd be particularly difficult to claim V was that high level back during the Azure City siege, since he didn't use any other high-level spells.. and there are many that could have been of use.

[Quartz]

No, considering there is no official Mass Spell metamagic feat (the closest I know of is Chain Spell, which works notably differently, and the rather questionable Dragon Magazine-sourced War Spells), and all the 'Mass whatsits' V cast are known Player's Handbook standard spells.

That's where I got the +4 levels from.

It'd be particularly difficult to claim V was that high level back during the Azure City siege, since he didn't use any other high-level spells.. and there are many that could have been of use.

Huh? No one's suggesting he was 17th level back then.

[Tryfan]

Just after my post, Illven shows that the math was wrong on how many spells V has in a day. Going from 44 to 46.

44 - 25 left over makes 19. The exact amount cast which proves the IFCC theory correct.

However, 46(The correct amount) - 25 is 21 cast. Which didn't match up with the number of spells V casted at the moment.

Zimmerwald, and RickDaily then did the math, and the error was, V is now level 16, instead of 15. With all the bonus spells and the like for leveling up. So, instead of V getting refreshed by the IFCC, the math shows V leveling up, is the only scenario right now that can fit the number of spells cast.

But V doesn't say 'I have 25 spells remaining' but 'I have in excess of 25 spells remaining'. In excess means V must have at least 26, and possibly more, spells left.

[tyckspoon]

That's where I got the +4 levels from.



Huh? No one's suggesting he was 17th level back then.

Apologies, I misunderstood your post. Still, there is no reason to expect that V has a homebrewed metamagic for making things Mass spells (especially when one of the Mass spells he did use - Mass Enlarge Person - is only +3 levels over its base spell); until we see him use a Mass X spell that doesn't already exist to necessitate such a feat, every 'Mass' spell used is sufficiently explained by V simply having the pre-existing Mass spell in his spellbook.

[Codyage]

But V doesn't say 'I have 25 spells remaining' but 'I have in excess of 25 spells remaining'. In excess means V must have at least 26, and possibly more, spells left.

It still doesn't work even if you flip it.

Spells V has casted today
1. Overland flight on V.
2. Greater Dispel Magic.
3. Pass wall
4. Quickened Expeditious Retreat.
5. Bugsby hand.
6. stone skin
7. fireball
8. wall of fire
9. protection from arrows
10. lightning bolt
11. fly
12. chain lightning
13. scorching ray
14. lightning bolt
15. hold monster
16. lightning bolt
17. prismatic spray
18. disintegrate
19. Bugsby hand
20. another hand
21. cone of cold
22. force cage
23. dimensional anchor
24. resilient sphere

Possible Scenarios
46(Spells per day at level 15 with 23 Int) - 24(Spells cast) = 22 (Spells left). Does not work.

48(Spells per day at level 16 with 23 Int) - 24(Spells cast) = 24 (Spells left). Does not work.

50(Spells per day at level 16 and 24 Int) - 24(Spells cast) = 26 (Spells left). Does work.

V being level 16 with 24 Int is the only scenario where V can have all of their spells ready to go.

Going by the idea that the IFCC did replenish the spells.

Changes the results to 27, 29, and 31.

All three still qualify if the IFCC restored spells (Where is the proof that they said they would replenish spells anyway?)

However, only one scenario, V being level 16 with 24 Int works if the IFCC didn't restore spells.

[Kurald Galain]

I see absolutely no evidence that the IFCC did, wanted to, or even has the capability to restore spells to Vaarsuvius.

[Codyage]

So, is there enough stuff here to come to a solid conclusion about V's level, or is there something else that needs to be looked into, or that everyone is unsure about?

[Quild]

They restored V's health.

[Codyage]

They restored V's health.

Strip please?

[Quartz]

Or is there a Feat or item which allows you to reduce the metamagic uplift by 1 to make it an 8th level spell?

Ah, I've found that there is a feat to do this, Improved Metamagic, but it would require V to be epic, which he isn't.

[Quartz]

Apologies, I misunderstood your post. Still, there is no reason to expect that V has a homebrewed metamagic for making things Mass spells (especially when one of the Mass spells he did use - Mass Enlarge Person - is only +3 levels over its base spell);

Making Mass Spell +3 levels would also tie in with Mass Heal being 9th level with Heal at 6th level. V conveniently has an 8th level slot free.

[Karsoff]

I think the estimates of V being level 16 and Int ~24 are probably accurate. Do these calculations take into account his ring of wizardry though?

[Souhiro]

Cantrips are 0th-level arcane spells. Orisons are zeroth-level divine spells. Basically, they're magic so weak that you can't even call them "spells" anymore.

You never detected poison, nor had to create water, or use Mage Hand, did you?

Also, in Pathfinder, cantrips are AWESOME: You can cast them indefinitely, so the wizard can go back on back with the Paladin, one with his Evil-dar, and the other with his Poison-dar. Mage hand is absurdly nice, and prestidigitation allows you to entertain your sons all the afternoon.
They have been so yummy, that Paizo have created a feat (altough optimizers don't consider it worth taking) that allows you to take extra Cantrips!

[Quild]

Strip please?

Injured V.

Uninjured V.

Except if V has some regeneration effect, they did something.

[Kurald Galain]

They restored V's health.

Restoring health isn't hard; a first-level cleric can do that. That doesn't tell us anything.

[RMS Oceanic]

Injured V.

Uninjured V.

Except if V has some regeneration effect, they did something.

I can see the argument that they healed the body - that would be part and parcel of protecting it from harm - but I don't see how that can be reasonably extended to spell rejuvenation.

[Deliverance]

Zimmerwald, and RickDaily then did the math, and the error was, V is now level 16, instead of 15. With all the bonus spells and the like for leveling up. So, instead of V getting refreshed by the IFCC, the math shows V leveling up, is the only scenario right now that can fit the number of spells cast.

Well, either that or level 15 with either a substantially higher intelligence or with a Ring of Wizardry IV. That would work too, wouldn't it?

The assumed intelligence for V is IIRC a lower bound based on a hypothesized headband of intellect+4 to account for the number of spells used shown earlier in the strip, not an upper bound, and likewise, while V having a Ring of Wizardry is known, that it is a Ring of Wizardry III in Zimmerwald's calculations rather than, say, IV, certainly seems reasonable in that we've never seen V go wild throwing 4th level wizard spells - but then again, we very seldom see V go wild with any sort of magic as unloading a significant part of any high level wizard's load of spells would take a lot of strips.

As I am not an expert in the previous arguments for establishing V's intelligence or the scope of the RoW, I have to ask those who are: Were those, in fact, lower bounds that are now treated as absolute values, or were there convincing arguments for them being upper bounds as well? e.g. "with headband +4 V could do what was observed, with +6 or +8 he'd be able to do XYZ, which he never did and had good reason to do.")

I quite agree that V being at least level 16 is the simplest explanation and that one shouldn't hypothesize magic items as being more powerful than needed to explain what is observed, but it seems to me that without establishing that those two cases do indeed reflect upper bounds, one cannot logically conclude that V must be level 16 here, since them being more powerful would explain the observed.

What did I miss?

[RMS Oceanic]

The actual level of the Ring of Wizardry is moot for these calculations: For a Wizard, no matter the level, a Ring of Wizardry can only ever give them at most four additional spells, even an epic Ring of Wizardry IX is held to this restriction. A RoW IV gives us the same number of spells to reach the 25 spell figure.

[Deliverance]

Right you are. It is clearly too long time since I played D&D* apart from in CRPGs, as I remembered some RoW variants as being able to double spells for all spell levels up to the highest they affected, but looking at the SRD it is clear that it is only one spell level and that it is only base spells that are doubled. Thanks for the clarification, RMS Oceanic.

Is the intelligence issue dealt with as easily?


* AD&D to be exact.

[zimmerwald1915]

I see absolutely no evidence that the IFCC did, wanted to, or even has the capability to restore spells to Vaarsuvius.

Performing a soul splice would replenish V's spell slots. Though judging by Cedric's phrasing, it is the soul splice procedure that does that, and it is not some separate effect the Directors can produce on its own. Since V was not re-spliced while in Hell, I see no reason to believe her spell slots were refreshed. As such, I'd like to see her level and Intelligence advanced to 16 and 24 respectively, and for the advancement table to be updated to reflect this change as of strip 935. Though I suspect she actually leveled after defeating the evil sauce dragon.

The assumed intelligence for V is IIRC a lower bound based on a hypothesized headband of intellect+4 to account for the number of spells used shown earlier in the strip, not an upper bound, and likewise, while V having a Ring of Wizardry is known, that it is a Ring of Wizardry III in Zimmerwald's calculations rather than, say, IV, certainly seems reasonable in that we've never seen V go wild throwing 4th level wizard spells - but then again, we very seldom see V go wild with any sort of magic as unloading a significant part of any high level wizard's load of spells would take a lot of strips.

According to the ABD, V expended "all her high-level spells" in trying to drive Qarr off and then trying to fight her off. If V had an Intelligence higher than 23, she would have had at least one more level 6 spell at her disposal at the time the dragon said that. If she had had 24-25 Intelligence, she would have had one more level 6 spell. If she had 26-27 Intelligence, she would have had one more level 6 and one more level 7 spell. And so on.

Also, NB, non-Epic headbands of intellect only go up to +6. Since V has had the same headband since the first strip, I see no reason to say, or even speculate, that it is an Epic magic item. Heck, even a +4 headband is quite strong for a level 8 character.