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  1. - Top - End - #1051
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    The thing is, you're assuming a homebrewed effect to justify the lower level. Yes, there exists a homebrewed effect that does what you're describing, but there's no evidence that it was used on this occasion.

    And people have been gaining stats/levels "without anyone noticing" for a while. There was no pomp and circumstance when V revealed Power Word Stun: Until that time we still believed they were level 14.

    Also also, the extra int and level can be explained hand in hand: Upon reaching level 16 (and any multiple of 4), you can raise one of your ability scores by one. So going from Level 15/Int 23 to Level 16/Int 24 is perfectly acceptable.
    1: Thanks for the ability score explanation.

    2: The homebrew has been used before. An effect that could be caused by the homebrew has been used this time. Going from that to "the homebrew was used this time" doesn't strike me as a huge leap of logic.

    3: At "Soul Splice" time, was V level 15, or level 14? If 14, that would be quite an impressive jump, going for 14 to 16 on that few encounters. No?

  2. - Top - End - #1052
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
    2: The homebrew has been used before. An effect that could be caused by the homebrew has been used this time. Going from that to "the homebrew was used this time" doesn't strike me as a huge leap of logic.
    The splice is the homebrew effect. Not the replenishment of spells.

    There's no evidence that a splice was used here. That means no replenishment of spells.

  3. - Top - End - #1053
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
    3: At "Soul Splice" time, was V level 15, or level 14? If 14, that would be quite an impressive jump, going for 14 to 16 on that few encounters. No?
    She was level 14 at that point. Information along those lines is contained in the first post.

  4. - Top - End - #1054
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Starting from this comic, which is the start of the current oots day, (hurrah 1 day, 101 pages and counting), I went through them counting all of V's spells and got 23.

    Counting V's ring of wizardry, and assuming the Geekery thread is correct on the level and intelligence (15 and 23) V should have 38 spells per day. For him to have "in excess of 25" he needs to be able to cast atleast 49 spells per day.

    Is this evidence of his level and/or intelligence being higher?

    edit: read the most recent posts, and using level 16 and int 24, he should still only be at 42 spells per day
    Last edited by gamingfreak10; 2013-12-20 at 03:47 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #1055
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    V specifies that it will take a day for them to reach the Order, so the current day would begin when they rejoin the team.
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  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
    1: Thanks for the ability score explanation.

    2: The homebrew has been used before. An effect that could be caused by the homebrew has been used this time. Going from that to "the homebrew was used this time" doesn't strike me as a huge leap of logic.

    3: At "Soul Splice" time, was V level 15, or level 14? If 14, that would be quite an impressive jump, going for 14 to 16 on that few encounters. No?
    Here are the encounters.
    V turning the giant fiend to stone
    V killing Kubota. (The previous two happened before V left to go to the island to be alone. Since no encounters happened between the battle and when V left, V may have leveled to 14 here, or has been level 14 for a while.)

    Black Dragon (Possibly gave no xp, and V most likely isn't level 15 yet.)
    Xykon(Probably gave no xp)
    Divorce Lawyer
    Slavers
    Purple Wyrm
    Finding Girard's message, and escaping the blast.
    (Bounty Hunters come. V must be 15 by now. However, V may have been 15 before this.)

    Freeing the slaves from the Empire of Blood
    The battle with Z, and the battle with the kobold.
    Saving Gootrude from a dragon.

    Somewhere after the Black Dragon V became 15. Since the Black dragon said V only had 6th and 7th level Spell slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamingfreak10 View Post
    Starting from this comic, which is the start of the current oots day, (hurrah 1 day, 101 pages and counting), I went through them counting all of V's spells and got 23.

    Counting V's ring of wizardry, and assuming the Geekery thread is correct on the level and intelligence (15 and 23) V should have 38 spells per day. For him to have "in excess of 25" he needs to be able to cast atleast 49 spells per day.

    Is this evidence of his level and/or intelligence being higher?

    edit: read the most recent posts, and using level 16 and int 24, he should still only be at 42 spells per day

    A level 16 Wizard gets 28 spell slots.
    V is a specialist, so add 8. 28 + 8= 36
    Int 24 grants 10 bonus spells. 10 + 36 = 46
    Ring of Wizadry grants 4 spells. 46 + 4 = 50.

    Spoiler: Spells V has cast today
    Show
    Spells V has casted today
    1. Overland flight on V.
    2. Greater Dispel Magic.
    3. Pass wall
    4. Quickened Expeditious Retreat.
    5. Bugsby hand.
    6. stone skin
    7. fireball
    8. wall of fire
    9. protection from arrows
    10. lightning bolt
    11. fly
    12. chain lightning
    13. scorching ray
    14. lightning bolt
    15. hold monster
    16. lightning bolt
    17. prismatic spray
    18. disintegrate
    19. Bugsby hand
    20. Bugsby hand(again)
    21. cone of cold
    22. force cage
    23. dimensional anchor
    24. resilient sphere


    50(Spells V can cast) - 24(Spells V cast today) = 26(Spells left over.)

    26 is in excess of 25.
    Last edited by Codyage; 2013-12-20 at 04:20 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #1057
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post

    No I didn't. Check the first paragraph of the post again, right under the two block quotes. Then count how many level 3 spell slots I gave V.

    Failed reading comprehension, sorry.

    You're right.

  8. - Top - End - #1058
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    V could just be bluffing, right? After all, the gambit worked because Laurin didn't suspect that V would know her approximate level and thus the points she was working with.

  9. - Top - End - #1059
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by HylianKnight View Post
    V could just be bluffing, right? After all, the gambit worked because Laurin didn't suspect that V would know her approximate level and thus the points she was working with.
    Could is the key word here.

    V doesn't get bluff as a class skill, gets a penalty to Charisma, has not shown any signs of using bluff before, and Laurin can read minds.

  10. - Top - End - #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by HylianKnight View Post
    V could just be bluffing, right? After all, the gambit worked because Laurin didn't suspect that V would know her approximate level and thus the points she was working with.
    Wait, the gambit worked because V was declaring "I have way more staying power than you in this fight". Implicit is that Laurin knows that V knows she is running low on power points (and hence will continue this 1 for 1 spell trading)

  11. - Top - End - #1061
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
    While I don't believe he realizes it, zimmer already shot that down:



    "Though on the plus side, the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished."

    We know that V's body was "rejuvenated" to full HP this time. The Soul Splice rejuvenation took less than 20 minutes, and didn't involve V looking at her spell book, or resting.

    So, we know that the IFCC can do it, and the restoration of health (that was not promised) shows that V gets benefits from the grab that weren't explained before hand.

    So unless you have a good story about how V picked up an extra bit of Int, and an extra level, without anyone really noticing, I'd say the "IFCC refills" is the best explanation.
    The "IFCC refills" isn't an explanation, and it has zero backing. The fact that a soul splice rejuvenates the subject to full spellcasting capability does not indicate whether or not the Directors can do the same thing at any old time.

    V likely levelled to 16 while he was on his own on the Plane of Elemental Ranch Dressing. We know he did at least some adventuring while there. If he levelled to 16, he got a stat increase, which he likely put into Int, increasing it from 23 to 24. It is by far the more reasonable explanation.

  12. - Top - End - #1062
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    The fact that we can do the math here and work out that V leveled makes me think the Giant keeps more careful track of his characters' stats than he lets on in the forums.

  13. - Top - End - #1063
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    The splice is the homebrew effect. Not the replenishment of spells.

    There's no evidence that a splice was used here. That means no replenishment of spells.
    Yes, teh splice is a home brew. So is a "healing" that gives you all your hit points back, and gives you all your spell slots back, AND fills those spots with spells.

    That is what happened to V last time, yes?

    The IFCC could have held V's body in an unchanging stasis. They didn't. They returned it to V with all V's hit points back. Last time they restored all of V's hit points, they also restored and filled all of V's spell slots. No?

    So, either they did that, again, or V went from "just made it to level 15", to level 16, in the space of one fight on screen, and one "adventure" in the land of ranch dressing.

    Is any of the above incorrect?

    If not, I'm done. You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, and we'll wait to see if the comic gives us any reason to support one idea over the other.

  14. - Top - End - #1064
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    The "IFCC refills" isn't an explanation, and it has zero backing. The fact that a soul splice rejuvenates the subject to full spellcasting capability does not indicate whether or not the Directors can do the same thing at any old time.

    V likely levelled to 16 while he was on his own on the Plane of Elemental Ranch Dressing. We know he did at least some adventuring while there. If he levelled to 16, he got a stat increase, which he likely put into Int, increasing it from 23 to 24. It is by far the more reasonable explanation.
    The Soul Splice shows that it is possible for a wizard to be returned to full spell slots, and have those spell slots filled with spells, in essentially no time at all.

    Yes?

  15. - Top - End - #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Codyage View Post
    Here are the encounters.

    Black Dragon (Possibly gave no xp, and V most likely isn't level 15 yet.)
    Xykon(Probably gave no xp)
    Divorce Lawyer
    Slavers
    Purple Wyrm
    Finding Girard's message, and escaping the blast.
    (Bounty Hunters come. V must be 15 by now. However, V may have been 15 before this.)

    Freeing the slaves from the Empire of Blood
    The battle with Z, and the battle with the kobold.
    Saving Gootrude from a dragon.

    Somewhere after the Black Dragon V became 15. Since the Black dragon said V only had 6th and 7th level Spell slots.
    So, you who play D&D 3.5: How big of a fight would "Saving Gootrude from a dragon" have to be to, combined with the other, take V from right below 15th level, to 16th level?

  16. - Top - End - #1066
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    I apologize for the derail of the V discussion, but since it looks like Laurin has left combat, would it be possible to calculate her INT, Level and the like? It looks like Zimmer did that with V's casting by pretending different INTs and levels. If it is possible, we could figure out the level Wormhole would have to be

  17. - Top - End - #1067
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
    The Soul Splice shows that it is possible for a wizard to be returned to full spell slots, and have those spell slots filled with spells, in essentially no time at all.

    Yes?
    Yes. By being soul spliced.

    Assuming that it is possible in any other manner is pure speculation with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

    Unless you are suggesting that V has been soul spliced again, which I think we can safely dismiss as a possibility, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the IFCC replenished his spell repertoire.

    Especially since we have a far more reasonable explanation.

  18. - Top - End - #1068
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
    Yes, teh splice is a home brew. So is a "healing" that gives you all your hit points back, and gives you all your spell slots back, AND fills those spots with spells.

    That is what happened to V last time, yes?
    What you're doing here is a propositional fallacy. You're saying "If Soul Splice, then full hit points. Full hit points, therefore Soul Splice."

    Either that or you're just not comprehending that the Soul Splice is what enables those things to have happened. V has most assuredly NOT been Spliced. It was called a "once in a century" thing, first of all, and it hasn't even been a year yet let alone a full century. In addition, there's no change in his appearance and there's no soul(s) talking to him.

    Now, could the Fiends have some other method to restore hit points and spell slots? Sure, but there's no evidence whatsoever of that. Even if we grant that they did, we only know the Splice does both. Some other method need not do both.

    Meanwhile, V's statement can be quantified by the rules. I think it's better to go with the rules-based interpretation first.

  19. - Top - End - #1069
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by Codyage View Post
    Here are the encounters...
    V may not have got any combat XP from some encounters but don't forget RP XP.

  20. - Top - End - #1070
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
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    Greg, please follow this link to the board rules.

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  21. - Top - End - #1071
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Part of what non-players are missing, I think, is that while effects that heal a character completely are relatively common, replenishing all spells is extremely powerful and as far as I know nothing in RAW can do that. It was named specifically as a side-effect of the splice in part because it's so unusual. Invoking that effect when it hasn't been explicitly named is borderline silly.
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  22. - Top - End - #1072
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    V may not have got any combat XP from some encounters but don't forget RP XP.
    Yeah I know. Their are so many ways V could have gotten XP. It is kind of overwhelming to try and do all the math.

    Communicating with Blackwing and trying to be on good terms could be Rp XP.
    The Instant Summons guy, and the Divorce itself could be Rp XP.
    The (possibly) Thri-keen slavers, and their beetles.
    The Purple Worm.
    Girard's message, could be considered a trap, and even Quest XP, since now they need to seek anyone who may be claiming in the bet.

    Then we go into, saving the slaves, fighting Z and YukYuk alone.

    Finally we have the three days in the Plane of Ranch Dressing were V at the least, restored a prince to the throne, and saved a princess from a dragon.

    Not to mention if the Xykon battle, or Familicide, also granted any XP.
    Last edited by Codyage; 2013-12-20 at 05:46 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #1073
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by Codyage View Post
    Not to mention if the Xykon battle, or Familicide, also granted any XP.
    Familicide seems unlikely, and you don't get xp from getting beaten... oh... you mean the part where he saved OChul and used his class feature (blackwing) to throw Xykon's soul into a sewer.

    DM might call that one a draw, so what would that be, half experience? Against Xykon? Even split with O'Chul that might be a lot.

  24. - Top - End - #1074
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    What you're doing here is a propositional fallacy. You're saying "If Soul Splice, then full hit points. Full hit points, therefore Soul Splice."
    Speaking of fallacies, what about "fake precision" you keep arguing that soul splice is something special.

    In the soul splice, the three directors inserted souls into V's body, and V's spell slots and HP were replenished.

    And the same thing happened here. The director inserted a soul into V's body. And v's Hp were replenished.

    So it should be plainly obvious that spell slots being replenished is a reasonable possibility. Doesn't mean it actually happened, but it's enough to cast a reasonable doubt on the idea that V must be 16lv 24int.

  25. - Top - End - #1075
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTD View Post
    So, you who play D&D 3.5: How big of a fight would "Saving Gootrude from a dragon" have to be to, combined with the other, take V from right below 15th level, to 16th level?
    That was probably more than one encounter. Who knows how much XP the adventure was worth.
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  26. - Top - End - #1076
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    While it is possibly and probably the smartest move to give the Ioun Stone to V (and th OP already listed it as such), as of strip #935 I would argue to move it to Blackwing's items: It is clearly shown that he has it in his claws and he did not did say that he snagged it for V. So before we have evidence that he passed it to V it is imo Blackwing's item.
    I agree. Although I too think Blackwing will lend the stone to Varsaavius, that is not the concern of this thread, here it should be shown in Blackwing's possession until there is canon evidence to the contrary.

  27. - Top - End - #1077
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Is there an argument that V is 17th level and has a Mass Spell metamagic feat?
    Supposing such a metamegic feat existed, wouldn't it fall into Conjuration, which is Varsaavius's barred school?

    Edit: uh, I just realized I double-posted. I should have edited the post above instead. Sorry.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2013-12-20 at 06:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustWantedToSay View Post
    Speaking of fallacies, what about "fake precision" you keep arguing that soul splice is something special.

    In the soul splice, the three directors inserted souls into V's body, and V's spell slots and HP were replenished.

    And the same thing happened here. The director inserted a soul into V's body. And v's Hp were replenished.

    So it should be plainly obvious that spell slots being replenished is a reasonable possibility. Doesn't mean it actually happened, but it's enough to cast a reasonable doubt on the idea that V must be 16lv 24int.
    So you claim while V was unconscious, they put in another soul, something they said they weren't doing, and would break the contract straight to V's face, just to heal V and replenish spell slots? Why would they lie about that?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Supposing such a metamegic feat existed, wouldn't it fall into Conjuration, which is Varsaavius's barred school?

    Edit: uh, I just realized I double-posted. I should have edited the post above instead. Sorry.
    Feats don't have schools, only spells do.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Supposing such a metamegic feat existed, wouldn't it fall into Conjuration, which is Varsaavius's barred school?

    Edit: uh, I just realized I double-posted. I should have edited the post above instead. Sorry.
    Metamagic Feat's don't have spell schools. A Wizard can take any Metamagic and apply it to any spell assuming he is sufficiently leveled to cast the adjusted spell.
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